Masons as revolutionaries.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
So loyalty to the fraternity supercedes loyalty to one's nation?

No!

Loyalty to one's God supersedes loyalty to one's nation.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
So Freemasonry teaches good men and members of a community to play both sides against each other? Where does belief even enter the picture?

Freemasonry teaches Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth. Belief in a Supreme Being is one of the key criteria for membership. Playing both sides doesn't enter into it.

Then a soldier would be forced to drop his gun, but a Mason could never be forced to part with his working tools, despite the tale of Hiram Abiff's death.

This is a very odd and obscure thing to say. What do you mean?

I'm sure you know the tale of Hiram Abiff's death.

I do, yes. What of it?

A soldier -- who is also a Freemason -- illegally refusing orders from his superiors is acting subversively. Would a revolution carried out in such a manner be a direct violation of Freemasonry?

It all depends where your priorities lie. It would appear that you are not familiar with the priorities of a Freemason.

Obviously not, since I framed my response a question.

Freemasons are taught to put God first, then their country, then Work and Family, friends and finally fellow freemasons, in that order. Thus each freemason would act as his conscience dictates when a country is seen to come into conflict with God, which would explain why you could have freemasons on both sides of a conflict. And indeed there was in both the Revolutionary War and the Civil War.

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
So loyalty to the fraternity supercedes loyalty to one's nation?

No!

Loyalty to one's God supersedes loyalty to one's nation.

So as to avoid discussing religion, the lodge must take a Freemason's word, that he stayed loyal to his God while betraying his nation.

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
So Freemasonry teaches good men and members of a community to play both sides against each other? Where does belief even enter the picture?

Freemasonry teaches Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth. Belief in a Supreme Being is one of the key criteria for membership. Playing both sides doesn't enter into it.

Actually, playing both sides directly conflicts with those moral values, despite the fact that it happens.

Then a soldier would be forced to drop his gun, but a Mason could never be forced to part with his working tools, despite the tale of Hiram Abiff's death.

This is a very odd and obscure thing to say. What do you mean?

The Juwes used their working tools to murder Hiram Abiff.

A soldier -- who is also a Freemason -- illegally refusing orders from his superiors is acting subversively. Would a revolution carried out in such a manner be a direct violation of Freemasonry?

Freemasons are taught to put God first, then their country, then Work and Family, friends and finally fellow freemasons, in that order. Thus each freemason would act as his conscience dictates when a country is seen to come into conflict with God, which would explain why you could have freemasons on both sides of a conflict. And indeed there was in both the Revolutionary War and the Civil War.

Practically every God says to kill people who deserve it. If Freemasons put their country above other Freemasons, then they would gladly shoot each other in combat.


[edit on 26-3-2009 by vcwxvwligen]

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
reply to post by Saurus

 

So loyalty to the fraternity supercedes loyalty to one's nation?

If by revolution, you mean the socialiist concept of revolution just for fits and giggles, then maybe Masons are revolutionaries.

However, this makes it difficult to seperate Ron Paul from the Freemasons, being that "revolution" was his campaign slogan during the 2008 presidential election.

No matter what we say to you vcwxvwligen, you are not satisfied. We tell you 1+1=2, but you seem to think that 1+1=3.

Freemasons are taught to be pious, good citizens, neighbors, and husbands/fathers. Get over yourself and move on.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Actually, playing both sides directly conflicts with those moral values, despite the fact that it happens.

War is Hell. Freemasons are not the only people to find conflicts within it. If you feel the morality of freemasonry conflicts with War then the morality of Christianity conflicts with War too, as they are one and the same. There is a wider picture to consider here methinks.

The Juwes used their working tools to murder Hiram Abiff.

And what does this have to do with anything?

Practically every God says to kill people who deserve it. If Freemasons put their country above other Freemasons, then they would gladly shoot each other in combat.

You're not paying attention. There is a higher power at work in our lives than our countries. Sometimes this higher power is invoked. If freemasons find each other on opposite sides in a battle that is a tragedy, but no more so than the division of families within battles such as the Civil War.

A freemason, just like a Christian, will SADLY kill but not GLADLY kill when called upon through circumstances of War and/or self-defense.

The Juwes used their working tools to murder Hiram Abiff.

And what does this have to do with anything?

By his spelling, he may be attempting to tie it in with the murders of Jack the Ripper.
From what I remember of the story, nothing states the religion of his attackers, only that they were attempting to force the secrets of the craft from Hiram.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
So as to avoid discussing religion, the lodge must take a Freemason's word, that he stayed loyal to his God while betraying his nation.

It is not for lodges to judge people. That is up to the courts of the country.

Lodges are there to support their members. They also do not make it their constant care to check up on whether or not their brothers are acting within the rules of Freemasonry.

Originally posted by KSigMason
No matter what we say to you vcwxvwligen, you are not satisfied. We tell you 1+1=2, but you seem to think that 1+1=3.

Freemasons are taught to be pious, good citizens, neighbors, and husbands/fathers. Get over yourself and move on.

Yes, like how they found Mohammad Atta's passport

More like 2 + 2 = 5

Originally posted by Trinityman
War is Hell. Freemasons are not the only people to find conflicts within it. If you feel the morality of freemasonry conflicts with War then the morality of Christianity conflicts with War too, as they are one and the same. There is a wider picture to consider here methinks.

I guess Freemasons just happened to find themselves in Boston Harbor with masks on.

Christianity is not anti-war.

The Juwes used their working tools to murder Hiram Abiff.

And what does this have to do with anything?

The working tools can be used as deadly weapons.

You're not paying attention. There is a higher power at work in our lives than our countries. Sometimes this higher power is invoked. If freemasons find each other on opposite sides in a battle that is a tragedy, but no more so than the division of families within battles such as the Civil War.

A freemason, just like a Christian, will SADLY kill but not GLADLY kill when called upon through circumstances of War and/or self-defense.

Actually, sometimes a higher power is cited as a justification for war.

The Crusaders had no problem killing, it seems, nor did the Holy Roman Empire. As a matter of fact, Rome killed people for not converting to Christianity. Columbus, Cortes, Contreras and Pizarro were Christian, last time I checked.

So then Freemasons are liable to commit acts that conflict with their personal convictions. It is often that people break the law in order to allay their sadness. Freemasons must find a way over that sadness, in order to maintain their reputation as model community leaders. Joining the military and then illegally refusing orders is not conducive to demonstrating leadership.

Originally posted by RuneSpider

The Juwes used their working tools to murder Hiram Abiff.

And what does this have to do with anything?

By his spelling, he may be attempting to tie it in with the murders of Jack the Ripper.
From what I remember of the story, nothing states the religion of his attackers, only that they were attempting to force the secrets of the craft from Hiram.

I was not saying the religious people are killers. I was saying that the working tools can be used as deadly weapons. Freemasons insist that their members have them, while they keep the blades of their swords dull. Cognitive dissonance or confusing deception?

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
So as to avoid discussing religion, the lodge must take a Freemason's word, that he stayed loyal to his God while betraying his nation.

It is not for lodges to judge people. That is up to the courts of the country.

Lodges are there to support their members. They also do not make it their constant care to check up on whether or not their brothers are acting within the rules of Freemasonry.

It takes hard work to be a community leader. Part of that is defending your public image from those who would tarnish, or otherwise deviate it.

This involves not only lying to outsiders like me, it also involves policing members who openly associate themselves with the group.

Without maintaining its tradition, Freemasonry becomes amorphous, and as such one lodge cannot speak for any other lodge, or the fraternity as a whole.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

Let's stay on target here, I could provide you with all the secrets and you would call me a liar.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

Are you done? Have you smote us all? Have you proved anything? What more do you want. We need a baseline here. As it stands, anything posted that conflicts with your views are wrong. And I dont really see many public forum members rushing to your defense either (interesting). Yet Masons must provide some sort of tangible evidence of/ or contradictory to your views. Talk about a straw man argument. You have never been in a lodge, but you KNOW from the internet.
To answer or corroborate your views, members would be forced to lie, by definition, which evidently you seem to believe is endemic among Masons.
Do you want lies so you can feel smugly satisfied? Or will actual truth please you? Please , pick one, be clear. What will satisfy you? If you want, people will feed you lies all day. As you know, the net is wide open. Maybe you can be a Double-Nought Spy and infiltrate ( easy to do for a while) and find out? And dont say "I dont need to" as that is lazy and not truly interested in research which you seem to posit as gospel( or truth as you see it). Make up your mind.


[edit on 4/5/09 by scooterstrats]

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

 

Let's stay on target here, I could provide you with all the secrets and you would call me a liar.

That's conjecture

So you're admitting that you haven't been honest.

reply to post by scooterstrats


You've lost

Stop trying to use emotional appeals.