Toxic Families- A case for reconsidering eugenics?

Lately I have been looking into the eugenics movement 1880 to 1940’s, and while the hypothesis as it existed then was severely flawed and ultimately responsible for human death during WW2, instutionalizion and sterilization programs for the mentally ill/handicapped, I do believe it has some underlying merit! The eugenics movement was based on flawed population studies using 2 families- Kallikaks and Jukes. One of the main problems with the Jukes studies is that the people studied were not from the same family but several families and there was also severe selecting error among other things. The Kallikak study is a bit different, while suffering from multiple questions regarding the labeling/diagnosing of people as “imbecile” and photo manipulation, I do see a lot of truths in it, that I believe can be still seen today.

Let us consider these modern examples- Both families are Caucasian, both live on the eastern coast of the USA, both are low to middle class none are poverty stricken

Family #1- Mom and dad (married) have 5 children together, mom goes on has one more with some other guy who she fails to identify. Dad has at least 3 more. Dad and mom are into drugs for years, mom caught at 52 years old with drugs and convicted. Oldest child Tammy (all names are fake) is fine for the most part some minor law issues but otherwise OK, no children. Second child, Linda has 3 children with a man who comes from a large toxic family, he later goes on to die of a heroin overdose, she has a forth child with another guy related to the first guy, 3rd child mentally deficient, special needs (*). Third child, Pam gets pregnant at age 14, drops out of school after first son is born, pregnant again at 17 by another man (second son), the father of the first son breaks into the house and rapes her then 13 year old sister, gets 12 years in jail. Pam then moves with family to another state meets another man has another child, a girl, given drugs by family members becomes a heroin addict, abuses prescription medication, commits multiple drug felonies gets sentenced to 4 years in jail, where she gives birth to child #4 a girl later adopted. Pam 2nd daughter, who is now displaying problematic behavior at 10 years of age is removed from mom’s care at age 2 (*), raised by father in solid middle class household. Pam ater commits welfare fraud, by claiming 3 children, not in her care. Pam second son also has issues with behavior and diagnosed with mental disorders (*), first son seems OK. 4th sibling of the mom and dad, girl who was raped, does alright has 2 children with a man whom she never marries one of these kids is severely mentally deficient, epilepsy and other problems(*). 5th sibling a boy, numerous law and substance abuse problems. Mom’s 6th child OK. Dad’s 3 other children one has a story similar to Pam other 2 are OK.

Family #2- Mom has 2 children with first husband (A and B, both girls), divorces and marries second husband has 4 more children (C, D, E, F), abandons all children for a week in the middle of winter in New Hampshire to continue ongoing affair with second husbands brother, children lost to the state. Children all wind up living with assorted family. Second husband, remarries has 2 more biological children and 2 adopted children, lives in middle class neighborhood, finically well off- (G,H,I,J)- child G, arrested as a teenager because he drives drunk killing his friend when he crashes the car, child H has a child at age 16, later become a drug addict and goes to jail for armed robbery, her child has developmental delays (*). Child A, struggles with drug and alcohol problems, has one child which dies of SIDS (*). Child B, struggles with drug, alcohol and abuse problems, has 4 children, one of which is mentally retarded (*). B dies at age 35 of heart condition her children have assorted mental health problems (*) older girl has 3 children before she turns 18. CDE- all have serious drug and alcohol problems in and out of prison numerous illegitimate children which they do not care for at least 2 of these decendents have mild mental disorders diagnosed as children- ADHD and bi-polar disease (*). Child F- does well graduates from college, marries long time sweet heart has a few “normal” kids. Mom later goes to jail for check fraud. Second husband found guilty of sexually molesting adopted child, goes to jail, his brother the one who runs off with his second wife found guilty of sexually molesting the then teenage mentally retarded daughter of child B.

What I lack the ability to show here due to lack of space is the large amounts of collateral damage the members from these dysfunctional toxic families leave in their wake. As pointed out in early eugenics text, the financial cost to society is HUGE in prison, welfare, and health care costs! Of course the underlying question here is whether of not the problems seen are due to genetic deficiencies or due to environment. I can say that in both of these families there are examples of members otherwise normal going onto have children who are mentally deficient, the levels of heath (mental and physical) in these families is poor even in members who have seemly escaped a life of crime, disease and drugs. I am close friends with a woman who is part of the collateral damage from both and caring for one of the children of the children of family #1 and family #2. The 2 children she cares for have never had any real contact to these family members yet suffer from mental disease, their half siblings lack, despite their lack of exposure and middle class upbringing. I was struck by how similar these 2 examples I am familiar with are to some of the early eugenic studies. While I do not believe we should start sterilizing could there be a benefit to better identification of these toxic families? No one wants to talk about it cause it is just not PC what if there are legitimate findings of these early studies and now with the advent of genetic testing we could maybe get some answers? Why should we not investigate something just because of the potential implications, just cause it is not PC? Identifying families based on prison/criminal records should eliminate the intrusion of rights of innocent citizens? I am willing to place a bet that members of these toxic families make up a significant proportion of the prison/welfare population! Maybe cut off state/federal aid (health and finical) to these toxic families?

Thank you for this topic.

The ones that should NOT be breeding, seem to be the ONLY ones breeding... and in large quantities. Idiocracy was onto something.

The only people that would disagree are the ones responsible for flooding the rest of us with their offspring.

IMO You are 100% correct.

I have been wanting to start a thread like this for sometime but was afraid of the backlash. Kupo I don't know the awnser. I work with these "toxic" families and it honestly sickens me that I go to work and bust my bum and they sit at home and get free "state" money. They make more money than I do. The really are leeches of they system and it has become generational welfare families. One young man I work with tells me he is going to be like grandma and live off the state. He does not need to work and he will not work.

Should we sterilize? Yes and No. I say yes and it starts to sound very "Nazi-ish" I say No and I get a queasy feeling in my stomach thinking about the young adults I work with and them adding to the gene pool. Personally, I think we should implement some kind of birth control measures to receive welfare checks.

It all becomes a very touchy subject to discus.

Ok, i liked idiocracy too. But it is reallynot that simple. You consider only current factors, and to extremes i might add. What if certain person from "toxic' family has a gene that is vital for human survival in case of some pandemia? Or what if perfect person from pefect family with 200 iq invents a bio weapon that would wipe out half of humanity?
Finally and most importantly - cultural values change with time. Look at Europeans century ago: majority of people had a lot of kids that lived in poor standarts (compared to ours) , poisoned themself with morphine (most popular syrup for tooth ache at the time) and generally had a lot of health problems due to mal-nutrition.
Result is generally acceptable, don't you think?

Perhaps this could be tied to the criminal justice system and/or the social services system.

If you are convicted of certain crimes, in addition to the time that you spend in jail, you are also sterilized.

Same thing with social services. If your a drug addict that has a certain number of kids.... bingo you get sterilized to continue receiving services.

I do believe that there are people who should not reproduce and I also believe that there should be incentives for responsible people to reproduce (up to say 4 kids).

It's a sensitive issue and I'm sure that many people will be afraid to reply to this post.

Nope, I think Toxic Families are a perfect reason for better education. Teach people about abuse, give them better tools for raising children. What are we looking for? Everyone to be exactly the same?

I was raised in a "Toxic family", I have had many problems that I have had to deal with in my life. I spent many years in and out of therapy and have worked hard to better myself, and become a GREAT parent. I am sure glad these days that I am here, and that you were not allowed to make the choice that my parents could not have children.

Peace

Edit for typo

[edit on 20-3-2009 by amazed]

it's not right to pose your influence on others. thats some evil intent always behind the control.


go feel bigger and better for you who will choose the fate of another.

i say help them, but that would be harder no?

evil is easy, good takes work and love

semper fi

You need history to understand reality.

They are the ones who make the mistakes to learn from. Let the memory of their mistake save you from making the same one.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Yup, first you are potentially correct in saying maybe the gene that predisposes someone to become a criminal could at some time in the distant future save humanity from some new virus, but at what cost if the only people to survive are like them? Maybe the kid that was killed cause one of these “upstanding citizens” wrapped their car around a tree could have gone on to cure cancer or maybe he actually saved people cause the guy who he essentially murdered at the young age of 15, would have been a serial rapist and murder. The same argument has been used to argue against abortion. I think there is no way of knowing that but I can say the damage these people do is real, immediate and long lasting for some of us who have the misfortune to work with or deal with members of these families! I do not think we need to focus on abstract notions of “what if?” but rather focus on curtailing some of the real damage done to us as a society finically and genetically!

The other thing about cultural norms changing is a load of bull! It is true that some things do go in and out of fashion, there are some things like drug addiction which just do not create a functional person! Yeah there was a time when people used coc aine or opiates and were not arrested and there are examples of people who addicted to these substances were able to accomplish/create impressive things, I can NOT believe however that most people addicted to heroin are able to be that highly functioning! It is in human nature to abuse mind altering substances and while the substances, their legality, and their cultural acceptance change from time to time, drug addiction is not something that has ever truly acceptable in everyday society. Armed robbery for example by ordinary citizens not during time of war or famine is just not acceptable not now and not 300 hundred years ago! Acceptance of children whose parents are not married/monogamous is widely variable, however in general it is NEVER a good idea to abandon your offspring (more true for females), especially for a species with a gestation period of 9 months and who typically produces only one infant at a time. I think the only reason these people are not being phased out more now is that there is a social network in place to care for these abandoned/neglected kids!

reply to post by amazed


There are members in my example who are completely normal, grew up in the same house, same food, potentially had the same influences but like you they made different choices.

Identification is key though and right now we as a society will not even tolerate the notion that these types of families exist and their existence may in some form be caused by genetics and not just environment. Do not get me wrong environment has a LOT to do with it in some cases particularly in cases where there abject poverty exists but does not explain the majority of the problems. I know of these families, lived in the same city and they have houses, cars and are not living in slums or even trailer parks! I know of another family- poor inner-city (my long time friend) just as dysfunctional maybe even more cause they have even less resources so now you have 8 people living in a 2 bedroom apartment however there are not the pervasive physical and mental health problems other than addiction and at least 3 family members have been able to attend college and once they do they are able to escape the fate that have befallen the other family members. The mom while a drug addict, made education a priority and while they did not have the best school system to go to 50% of them were able to obtain an education and make it out!

I do not think everyone should be the same, diversity is great but come on now there are just some things that are plain wrong child abuse, violent crime, and theft are not acceptable! I am not saying we should sterilize or determine who should breed, although I could make an argument for mandatory sterilization of a woman who just gave birth to a drug addicted baby in prison or men found guilty of raping their daughters/sons. Maybe just identify these families and figure out why they are the way they are without bias against a role for genetics, without solely blaming environment. Hey maybe there is some concrete genetic issue and maybe just the identification of this can allow focused early intervention?

Given that a child raised in love has a high likelihood of exhibiting positive behaviors, and a child raised in neglect and/or abuse has a high likelihood of exhibiting negative behaviors...

I think the solution is to provide love to all children. But to do that, we must have abundance, else the unwanted children become someone's burden. And burdens are seldom fully loved.

But how might we gain abundance? I offer a way in my book (intro and book linked in my sig).

To decide that it is in the genetics necessarily is absurd, I think, given the evidence of the difference that simple love can make. Though genetics may play some monir roll (as in the degree of twistedness that might be exhibited), the primary factor in solving these issues lies in our ability to offer love.

reply to post by LostNemesis


Who are "we" to tell other individuals what to do and how to do it?
Im 100% sure you wouldnt want your government to tell you want to do and what youre allowed to do. Why deal with this crazy #?

reply to post by kupoliveson


We are all related, every single one of us, which means that if you were to poke around in our genetics enough (not a geneticist), I think we would find that many people have the same "dispositions".

I am the only one, and the youngest in my family who went to college and "got out". What makes me "better" than any of my siblings? Genetically? Nothing really, just someone who was able to make a different choices.

What happened? Why was I able to get out of a "Toxic family" and live a better life? In my high school years I found a great role model. She was much older than I was (my boyfriends mom), was very loving and showed me by "doing", healthy ways of raising children, healthy ways of "being". (when I met my boyfriends family he had two younger siblings who were age 1 and 5). For the first time in my life, I saw a parent who was gentle, loving, reliable and enforced rules with compassion but with a no nonsense attitude. She was also able to sincerely apologize to her children when she made a mistake.

I used to go hang out with her, and we would talk and talk. She SHOWED me that life could be different than what I knew. Meaning I was given the skills and the education, by a lovely woman, to move forward with my in a healthier manner.

If this woman had never been a part of my life, I can guarantee I would still be living the only way I knew how. But, once I was given the education and healthy role model, I was able to take my life in a different direction.

Your idea would have meant, that I would never have been born, as my family was "Toxic".

Your theory is flawed. Education and healthy role models are what is needed in this world along with compassion, love, generosity and an ability to have empathy. I fear that many of these things have been lost in our corporate, commercialized society.

This countries "war on drugs" needs to stop as well, we should not be putting addicts into prison, we should be educating them, setting them up with rehabilitation and giving them a chance in this world to be productive citizens. Prison does not do those things. We need to start with our children at very young ages and educate them on the dangers and differences about drugs. We also need to educate parents. Not enforcing a war on society, which is what the war on drugs is all about. It creates a huge fog of fear about something that could be dealt with in a manner that does not destroy people and families.

Peace

Only on ATS can you find people who rail on and on about big government's control over your life - yet simultaneously endorse such an unambiguously draconian and evil idea such as eugenics without even the slightest blush of irony.

reply to post by Lasheic


No kidding.

What utter nonsense.

So much is wrong with this thread, I don't even know where to start.

Moving on...There must be a Nancy Pelosi reptilian thread around here somewhere....

*sigh*

Originally posted by kupoliveson
Identifying families based on prison/criminal records should eliminate the intrusion of rights of innocent citizens?

I'm only going to address this one point in your post, because others have done a better job pointing out some of the flaws in your basic idea than I could.

But this really struck me. No, that doesn't eliminate intrusion on the rights of innocent citizens!

You're saying that we should look into and limit the rights of relatives of people who have been in the criminal system? How on earth does that not invade their right to privacy?

If my brother, cousin, father, son commits a crime, the state has no right to limit my constitutional rights, unless perhaps that person is a minor under my guardianship.

I guess most of my county and state should just be put down like 'ol Yeller if this type of behavior means these families should not be allowed.

Come on, teenage pregnancy is at very high levels once again and stories similar to these are playing out throughout this country on a daily basis.

Of course all children should be raised gently and with love, but I hate to break it to you that the human species is very flawed and it ain't ever going to happen.

reply to post by amazed


I do think we need more drug programs in this country and prison is not the answer for the most part but "Pam" is the mother to the child my friend now raises and she has probally gone to tens of different rehab programs both in and out of prison. Her and a friend stole over 50K in prescription meds from elderly people over the course of 6 months. Many of these patients were in a nursing home, and could not fend for them selves, many I am sure were left in pain cause, her friend the nurse pocketed the meds to take them later for herself. So we are not talking about a victem-less crime here! She deserved to go to jail and she did all this while pregnant with her 4th child as well as trading drugs for sex! She got out did drugs again while collecting welfare on the children she no longer had custody of. Truthfully to me she sounds like a psychopath with a known history of chronic lying a trait her daughter while not in contact with her mother since the age of 1 1/2 to 2 years has appeared to "inherit". There are news paper accounts of the judge chastizing her for lying to the court! Her family lies for her so that the family caring for the daughter cannot serve her with paperwork to terminate her rights so that the child can move on. She refuses to call the daughters counsler back! She was there when her brother-in law overdosed on heroin and refused to call for an ambulance chosing instead to leave him there and call her sister, wasting precious time that could have nd saved his life. The father of her first child broke into the house and raped her younger sister at knife-point. Her sisters are not that much better! Her brother likes to torment, abuse and stalk his girlfriends as well as drive drunk! That is not all this family other members are also in prison there is an uncle serving a life term for killing some guy at a bar!

There has to be some link here other than environment! Cause these are people who live in the burbs and are not poor and live in areas with decent school systems! THe second family has burnt down 2 houses just to collect the insurance money, one was a duplex with someone living next door no one was hurt and the second fire was investigated but no proof was ever found!

These people are a menace to society and they just keep breeding! I have a bunch of kids but I take care of them all! They have access to all kinds of resources but CHOOSE not to use them. I live outside of Baltimore, go down there and you see poverty stricken horrible conditions which I can see would cause problems, but that just does not explain it all and it does not explain these 2 families. If I know of 2 then there has to be loads more!

reply to post by kupoliveson


Have thought a lot about this issue.

Certainly the Oligarchy seems enamored with it. So, by definition, it must be thoroughly evil.

So let's consider it . . .

1. Phil Zimbardo--who did the famous prisoner/guard experiment . . . in the intro to one of his great INTRO TO PSYCHOLOGY texts noted . . .

IF THERE ARE MONSTERS . . . it's not a great problem . . . there aren't many of them and we can gang up on them.

IF THE MONSTER IS IN EACH ONE OF US . . . 'Tis a much bigger problem. His prisoner/guard experiments demonstrated that the Bible is right--the monster is in each one of us.

2. The Nazi trials at the end of WWII demonstrated the same thing. Essentially, there was no significant difference between the most horrible of the monsters and guards at the camps . . . and the average citizen.

3. Scripture declares that the heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it . . . apart from Holy Spirit's shining His light on our interiors.

4. CERTAINLY it would be a lot more . . . rational . . . from a lot of perspectives to AT LEAST REQUIRE PARENT TRAINING AND SOME SORT OF LICENSING TO HAVE KIDS. But would we really want that kind of tyranny?

5. ATTACHMENT DISORDERED CHAOS reigns in tons of individuals and families to great destructiveness.

6. Things are going to get worse before they get better.

7. The oligarchy is determined to reduce the global population to 200 million. They won't succeed. But they will caus massive amounts of blood and death.

8. Thankfully, their reign will be short. Christ WILL return and reign in Peace for 1000 years . . . THEN all manner of problems will be solved as the evil will be bannished from within and without.

Until then . . . buckle seat-belts . . . it WILL get worse.

Thankfully, "only" 1/3 to 2/3 . . . of the planet's population will die.

My 2 cents.

reply to post by kupoliveson


I am hearing what you are saying, I just don't agree with you.

We have to start teaching people while they are still little children, before they turn 5. The ages before 5 are when children learn many important life "concepts". Those are the ages when many neurons in the brain are developing, or not developing. If children do not learn certain concepts by age 5, it makes it very very hard in adulthood to "break the chain".

I know that some people who have addictions have almost a negative chance of breaking that addiction and moving on to a healthy life. BUT IT CAN BE DONE. And knowing this, I can only have hope.

I am proof of that, you have no idea how much I am proof of that.

The woman that you are discussing has what is called "enablers", if her family is running interference for her, they are NOT helping her. They are actually telling her that her actions are acceptable and that they will "bail" her out any time she makes unhealthy choices.

Having children in my husbands family who have been adopted, and knowing what this can sometimes cause to the emotional stability of the adopted person if they do not have good support, also proves to me that environment is a link that cannot be denied.

My Mom in law (raised in a toxic family) was very young when she became pregnant, she was forced to adopt these twins out as in her "day" parents made those choices for their children. A couple of years ago my Mom in law found her daughter, her daughter had been raised in a very toxic family situation, and was living a toxic life. We all tried to help her, but she refused any help and we have not seen her since. My Mom in law as well had a son who was adopted out at the same time, who was adopted into a great family. He is a WONDERFUL guy, one that I am proud to have as a brother.

I know that those who have a supportive adopted family grow up to be loving adults. The truth is, you never know what is going on behind the closed doors of your neighbors. You might see "healthy" interactions, but you don't know that those interactions carry over into the privacy of their home. Environment.

My brother in law (adopted INTO the family, yes my family has many adoptions into and out of the family), had a birth mother that was "toxic" and he was born with addictions. He has had some minor learning disabilities, but other than that, he is one of the nicest, loving persons I have ever met. He is grown, in the military now and living a happy, productive life. You would have taken that from him with your ideas, as well as my sister in law who is also adopted, her parent left her on the doorstep of a church when she was a week old. We will never know who her birth family is, but I suspect that her birth family was also "toxic". But if you met her today (grown up), you would possibly feel shame as to your theory in this thread. This young woman, is the nicest, sweetest most intelligent young lady that I have met in a very long time.

(other than my own children, who I feel are the most bestest greatests smartests people in the world)

Actually, MOST people I know would not be alive, if we lived by your ideas. If we lived by your ideas, my family has many people, who are loving, empathetic, compassionate, funny, joyous people who would not be around. What a sad thing, to think that such wonderful people would not be around because of the confusion and fear of others.

The link IS environment, other than those who have a mental illness, and SOMETIMES environment can be the cause that "kicks off" a mental illness. Take twins, and separate them, put one in a "toxic" family and one in a healthy family, and see what you end up with. ENVIRONMENT makes a HUGE difference.

I am not saying that genetics have zero influence, because I do believe that genetics play a part, I just happen to believe that environment plays an even bigger part.

You know of two, well I know of at least 6, possibly more, who came from toxic families, and today they are citizens, that any country would be proud to have. And any family would be proud to call a brother, sister, aunt, uncle, parent etc. They are people that others are proud to have as friends.

The biggest link, is a toxic environment. Which can come from many different directions than just a parent.

Peace