Gematria - Jesus in the Bible - Conspiracy of Linguists or proof of God?

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Again, if that's what you believe all the more power to you.

There are many beliefs of where the name comes from. It can also just mean Venus.

It refers to an "exalted" state of being more than a given name IMO.



[edit on 16-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

The usual test of these things is does it give "contrary" results? In other words, the things you're linking up with a particular number... are there "negative texts" that give the same number?

This was one of the tests that the Bible Code failed.

Also, for the record, "Jesus" wasn't written in Hebrew. The name comes from the Aramaic (Greek) texts and is spelled "iēsou". There is no Jesus in Hebrew... as you can see when you check the Strong's Concordance:
www.blueletterbible.org...

Originally posted by Byrd
The usual test of these things is does it give "contrary" results? In other words, the things you're linking up with a particular number... are there "negative texts" that give the same number?

This was one of the tests that the Bible Code failed.

Also, for the record, "Jesus" wasn't written in Hebrew. The name comes from the Aramaic (Greek) texts and is spelled "iēsou". There is no Jesus in Hebrew... as you can see when you check the Strong's Concordance:
www.blueletterbible.org...

I never said it was written in Hebrew. I applied this in English. It would be Jesus, Joshua, Yeshua, Hoshea, Jehoshua, Jeshua, etc

Also the common use of the word has to be taken into consideration. Most Christians call Jesus, Jesus.

If I am applying the technique to Hebrew of course I would also use Hebrew words, as well as the one of the Jewish techniques. In this case it was English, hence English words, modern technique. There are other techniques for English as well, but I went with Modern because it's simple to illustrate.

I wouldn't really compare this to bible code either. The two fields are not even remotely related. This only serves to show esoteric meanings in words or verses that are "related".

The example I gave is probably in it's most basic form. The Jew's have myriad of techniques, and produce outstanding results.

[edit on 17-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

reply to post by Byrd


I know jesus wasnt written in hebrew texts, hence attempting to approximate what it would be

[edit on 17-3-2009 by gYvMessanger]

reply to post by gYvMessanger


Are you saying that we are unable to translate Hebrew to English? I didn't make the translations, Nave's, Easton's, etc, made the translations. Also, when dealing with English words what do they have to do with Hebrew? I could see if I was claiming something about Jesus as applies to a Hebrew text, but that isn't the case in this instance.

Yes you can translate it but Biblical Hebrew is no ones native tongue and as the scriptures in question (new testament) are not written in original hebrew, there are several variant spellings of Jesus in hebrew.

Bryd was pointing out why that is, I was agreeing.

The point I came to the thread to make was that Jesus doesnt equal 74 using traditional Gematria, and the applications of Gematria are not as simple as just going a =1 b = 2 c =3 then saying Jesus = 74 and then saying what are all the other words that also = 74, you could certainly explain what Gematria is through that example but it wouldn't be an accurate explanation in regards to what the techniques actually are.

Don't get me wrong the results are interesting but as Byrd also pointed out the English language is not the Hebrew language, the English language is all about having multiple words to say one thing, it is a lot easier to generate a list of words that share the same value as your starting point and draw conclusions from them based around your already existing concepts.

[edit on 17-3-2009 by gYvMessanger]

[edit on 17-3-2009 by gYvMessanger]

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
Yes you can translate it but Biblical Hebrew is no ones native tongue and as the scriptures in question (new testament) are not written in original hebrew, there are several variant spellings of Jesus in hebrew.

Bryd was pointing out why that is, I was agreeing.

The point I came to the thread to make was that Jesus doesnt equal 74 using traditional Gematria, and the applications of Gematria are not as simple as just going a =1 b = 2 c =3 then saying Jesus = 74 and then saying what are all the other words that also = 74, you could certainly explain what Gematria is through that example but it wouldn't be an accurate explanation in regards to what the techniques actually are.

Don't get me wrong the results are interesting but as Byrd also pointed out the English language is not the Hebrew language, the English language is all about having multiple words to say one thing, it is a lot easier to generate a list of words that share the same value as your starting point and draw conclusions from them based around your already existing concepts.

Of course I'm applying them to existing concepts, Gematria is applied to a religious text, with religious motives to derive esoteric meaning. This isn't numerology. The technique I use with Modern English is one and the same as one of the techniques used for Hebrew. The value of the letters isn't important, as you are just looking for words that are related in a religious context. You could substitute any value and the same words would be related. 1,2,3,4 etc, is easier for the purposes of an example, that's all. Yes there are multiple words in English that share the same meaning, but this doesn't negate the fact that those words won't have the same numerical value. Also, the religious text I used would eliminate thousands (millions?) of English words that are currently in use.

This is just a simple example, not meant to be an in depth study or anything. If someone is interested they can study Hebrew and all the different techniques and explore this themselves. I only wanted to generate some interest to those that haven't seen this.



[edit on 17-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

Originally posted by B.A.C.

The value of the letters isn't important, as you are just looking for words that are related in a religious context. You could substitute any value and the same words would be related. 1,2,3,4 etc, is easier for the purposes of an example, that's all.

[edit on 17-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

In terms of what Gematria is I disagree strongly with the above statement though possible it is what Christian Gematria is. In herbew gematria the value of the letters and the ways in which you manipulate the numbers is very important, as is deeper analysis of things such as the root word of a word etc.

As i said before Hebrew script are not just letters, they have always been numbers as well, unlike English where you are assigning them a numerical value as well which is an additional function outside of their intended state.

i.e in Hebrew Alef is 1 and it sounds like A it can be read as 1 or A, in English A is A it stands for A and it sounds like A it happens to be the first letter of the alphabet but One is 1.

Not that you haven't found value in your application, synchronicity abounds ay.

Interesting the Jesus in your numerical application has a link to messiah but doesn't have a link to christ (or king messiah essentially).

[edit on 17-3-2009 by gYvMessanger]

[edit on 17-3-2009 by gYvMessanger]

Originally posted by gYvMessanger

Originally posted by B.A.C.

The value of the letters isn't important, as you are just looking for words that are related in a religious context. You could substitute any value and the same words would be related. 1,2,3,4 etc, is easier for the purposes of an example, that's all.

[edit on 17-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

In terms of what Gematria is I disagree strongly with the above statement though possible it is what Christian Gematria is. In herbew gematria the value of the letters and the ways in which you manipulate the numbers is very important, as is deeper analysis of things such as the root word of a word etc.

As i said before Hebrew script are not just letters, they have always been numbers as well, unlike English where you are assigning them a numerical value as well which is an additional function outside of their intended state.

i.e in Hebrew Alef is 1 and it sounds like A it can be read as 1 or A, in English A is A it stands for A and it sounds like A it happens to be the first letter of the alphabet but One is 1.

Not that you haven't found value in your application, synchronicity abounds ay.

Interesting the Jesus in your numerical application has a link to messiah but doesn't have a link to christ (or king messiah essentially).

[edit on 17-3-2009 by gYvMessanger]

[edit on 17-3-2009 by gYvMessanger]

Yup, I agree in Hebrew it is way more complex. This is I admit a stripped down version of that.

As for Jesus not being linked to Christ numerically I agree somehwat. Although if we want to analyze or interpret we could say that messiah = 74, Christ = 77, father is 1, son is 1, holy ghost is 1, or Christ = Messiah (74) + trinity (3). This is where interpreting the numbers comes in play, and not everyone will agree with interpretations, so I tried to stay away from that here. This is where I would derive esoteric meaning. Christ is the Messiah, but not any Messiah, he is the Messiah that contains the Trinity. Making him King of Kings.




[edit on 17-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

Originally posted by B.A.C.
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

Again, if that's what you believe all the more power to you.

It's not what I believe, it's basic knowledge. Satan is a Hebrew word and a title given to an angel of God in Judaism, we meet him among other places in the Book of Job where he attends the assembly of the Hebrew gods or angels under Jahveh Elohim. Here like everywhere else he is mentioned he stands before the throne of God to accuse like some kind of procecutor in the court of Law. In astrology he is the Dragon or Draco which is fixed in the apex of the Northern Hemisphere. He is also connected with planet Saturn and Mars, with their hexagonal conjunction cycle. Also Satan is often connected with the Sun and Sunworship. Satan as a word and name is as old as Hebrew is, and Hebrew is one of the oldest languages we know of.

Lucifer, however, is a Latin word and name of a god in the Roman pantheon, based on Phosphorus, the Greek variant of the word and name. He is connected to planet Venus, and especially it's inferior conjunctions with the Sun and it's strict 584 day cycle, showing up as a pentagonal flower or star, the pentagram, one of the oldest Christian symbols known. When Venus is in inferior conjunction with Earth and the Sun it is called a Morningstar. In Latin: Lucifer and in Greek: Phosphorus. In Isaijah 14:12 where King James "translates" the Hebrew word or name Heylel into Lucifer, the Greek LXX use the Gr. word Eosphorus, or the Eveningstar (Lat: Hesperus), when Venus "falls", ie. the oposite from Eng. Morningstar, Gr. Phosphorus and Lat. Lucifer. In most ancient schools of astrology Lucifer and Hesperus or the Morning- and Evening stars were seen and explained as two separate bodies or atleast that was the main concencus.

There are many beliefs of where the name comes from. It can also just mean Venus.

It refers to an "exalted" state of being more than a given name IMO.

When Jesus lets lucifer rise in our hearts (2nd Peter) through insight and faith he refers to the planetary alignment of Venus, the Sun and the Earth. And when Jesus is refered to as the bright morningstar (Rev. 22), it shows he is one of the many God's chosen sons. Satan is also a morningstar, same is Michael and Gabriel and all the other princes in Heaven. They were all born under a morningstar. The morningstar links a person to God and like the angels he is counted as having a soul of fire. "Behold, Ye are all gods!"....

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Yup, I have read about the name Lucifer, I'm aware of all the sources you posted. A lot of what you are saying is interpretation, others have different interpretations of what those verses mean. Interpretation is just that, it's what you interpret it to mean. I interpret it a different way.

Saying Lucifer was Satan before the fall (that hasn't happened, since he is vital for the current system, and the reason we have concepts like good-evil, right-wrong etc).... Saying Lucifer existed before Satan is like Saying Jesus was Osiris before he was sought killed. What is it with you guys? Satan as a word and a name existed thousands of years before some Roman invented Lucifer. Analysing Lucifer puts him closer to Jesju than Satan. Why do you believe modern fiction (Dante, Milton, Göthe...) together with Roman Catholicism (who has broken every truth in the book to fulfill every pagans dream) before the books that invented Satan? Satan isn't evil, no truthful Jew would say that, and he is a Jewish god (or angel, same same). Lucifer wasn't evil, no truthful Roman pagan or universal astrologist would say that. They are miles appart. "Satan" isn't a person, it is a god or a divine concept, same is Lucifer, but with completely different areas of interest. Lucifer gives birth to kings and prophets, Satan judge them. Jesjuh does both.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Saying Lucifer was Satan before the fall (that hasn't happened, since he is vital for the current system, and the reason we have concepts like good-evil, right-wrong etc).... Saying Lucifer existed before Satan is like Saying Jesus was Osiris before he was sought killed. What is it with you guys? Satan as a word and a name existed thousands of years before some Roman invented Lucifer. Analysing Lucifer puts him closer to Jesju than Satan. Why do you believe modern fiction (Dante, Milton, Göthe...) together with Roman Catholicism (who has broken every truth in the book to fulfill every pagans dream) before the books that invented Satan? Satan isn't evil, no truthful Jew would say that, and he is a Jewish god (or angel, same same). Lucifer wasn't evil, no truthful Roman pagan or universal astrologist would say that. They are miles appart. "Satan" isn't a person, it is a god or a divine concept, same is Lucifer, but with completely different areas of interest. Lucifer gives birth to kings and prophets, Satan judge them. Jesjuh does both.

I believe Lucifer was an Archangel in heaven controlling 1/3 of the angels before he was thrown out, taking his angels with him. I also believe that after that fall he became "the prince of the air" the "ruler of earth" and "Satan". I believe his name changed at that time. Just like others in the Bible names were changed.

I don't believe what you do, not at all. I call Jesus, Jesus, not Jesjuh. I don't believe in what "astrologists" believe either.

Also, I don't believe in organized religion, to each their own though, I respect others beliefs.

Sorry, but that's how I see it. I respect your belief, but it isn't the same as mine. I don't consider the specific name important anyway, I think it's what people thinks it means that is important. Do a poll and see how many Christians believe Lucifer is the name of Satan.


[edit on 28-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

Lucifer has never been an arch angel, he is the pagan Latin god of the morningstar. However, Dante, Milton and other renneisance authors claimed he was Satan since it made their stories more relevant to the European reader. Lucifer never fell, infact he can't fall, lest planet "Venus" or our star "Sol" or even "Tellus" falls out of the universe, neither is he Satan. The morningstar can't fall, for when planet Venus is in the alignment when it "falls" it is the Eveningstar which has a different Roman god connected to it. If you want to call the Biblical Heylel (the Babylonian god protecting the Babylonian emperor) or Satan -- Lucifer, then why don't you translate Ishtar into Venus, Apollos into Mars, Ra into Mithra and so on leading up to "translating" Osiris into Moses or Jesju in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. These are highly different stories coming from very different traditions and languages. It only serves to confuse the truth to mix rather modern astrological paganism into ancient Hebrew scripture.

According to paganised or Latinised Catholic tradition Lucifer was a Cherubim, not an Arch Angel. On the other hand: According to Hebrew Kabbalistic tradition Satan the Arch Angel waged war in heaven after he found out Arch Angel Raziel had given Adam a book containing everything he knew, the ever elusive Spark of Heaven, Kabbalah's Philosophers' Stone. Satan summoned 1/3rd of God's angels and rebelled against God, he stole the book from Adam and dumped it at the bottom of the ocean. When God finds out what Satan has done, and this is in the time of Enoch, God orders Leviathan to retrieve the book and give it back to the seed of Adam. When Enoch gets the book, he becomes known as the wisest man ever to have lived and he was the first person to write Hebrew, and the first person to write a book. And God brings about the Flood to eradicate the children of the angels together with all the others who represented the rebellion. The Enochian and Messianic traditions rests on this. A satanic Lucifer just doesn't fit in anywhere in Hebrew tradition or religion.

Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone-- 7 while the morningstars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?"

The morningstars, or lucifers if you like, are the princes in the assembly of God. Satan is merely one of these. The Morningstar (or The Lucifer if you like) is The Son of God, ie. Jesju. Why do you put Satan in Jesju's place like some other Catholic? The Catholic ecclectic conspiracy lives on until the truth becomes obvious. The Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon, as it grows out of the Roman Empire riding it's beast, while getting drunk on the blood of the marthyrs the Roman beistos tortures and kills.

Does typing our names into the gematria calculator yield any results that haas something to do with us?.. .

Such stuck in the muds. Guess that's why they will never get it.

Modulate yourself.

Great post OP.

Hmm anyone has any idea about personal names and gematria?.. .