Are there ANY churches out there that don't teach pre-trib?

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

How much Scriptural evidence is there for transubstantiation of the eucharist?

John 6
Matthew 26:26
Mark 14:22
Luke 22:19
1 Corinthians 11:24

For a start.

reply to post by Supercertari


You have to be kidding. In no way do any of those passages imply that a priest can pray over the wafer and wine and transform them into the body and blood of Jesus. They are symbolic of the way Jesus feeds and quenches the thirst of our spirits. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
You have to be kidding.

A modern variant of:
"How can this man give us his flesh to eat?", and,
"This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

It is the greatest tragedy of the Western schism that the association with simony caused this summit and source of all that we might be as Christians to be diminished and simply rejected by so many. For this the scandal of simony and those who allowed it must take their share of responsibilty.

What confounds me is that those who claim a sola scripture faith go to such lengths to ignore the definitive statements of Christ on this matter. Even more so when one considers how, relatively recently, an effort has been made to "prove" this notion of rapture on the vaguest of texts. Christ shall indeed come again, not to complete a victory already won but to manifest it without question in creation. I only hope that universally people will proclaim with Peter: ""Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

Originally posted by concerned190
Are you saying these are or are not pre trib believers?

NOT.

These churches do not believe in any pre-end-of-the-world rapture.
People only get 'raptured' (if you wish to use that word) when Christ returns.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
They are symbolic of the way Jesus feeds and quenches the thirst of our spirits. Nothing more.

Christ says differently. He says in John 6 - 'amen, amen, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man you will not have life in you' and at the Last Supper he said 'This is My Body' ... he didn't say 'this represents my body'.

Funny thing about some fundamentalists... they insist on literal reading of scripture until it doesn't suit their anti-Catholic needs. Then they insert things like 'it was symbolic' .. when there is no word uttered by Christ saying anything like 'symbolic'.



[edit on 3/12/2009 by FlyersFan]

Christ spoke in many parables. So to say I'm picking and choosing is not to understand His teaching methods, not to mention the height of hypocrisy. You see transubstantiation substantiated; I see a parable, and its meaning.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
So to say I'm picking and choosing is not to understand His teaching methods, not to mention the height of hypocrisy.

- I understand His teaching methods just fine.
- Calling those who disagree with your interpretation hypocritical is

Your avatar claims that you seek to do the Will of God. Good. Do you really think it's God's Holy Will that you add the meaning of 'symbol' to the literal Word of God and then stand by your interpretation based upon that, all the while calling those who see Christ's Words as literal - hypocrites?

If you think that's God's Holy Will ... then all I can do is pray for you.
And I will.

reply to post by FlyersFan

People only get 'raptured' (if you wish to use that word) when Christ returns.

How is this different from my belief? I believe these events will coincide, in general proximity. You just don't like the term? Is this about semantics?

How do you explain this verse?

Revelation 7

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Seems pretty plain to me the saved in Christ just suddenly appeared in heaven! What do you call that? They're standing before the Lamb and the throne. Does Christ have to return to earth to rapture the church? You don't think He has the power to do it from heaven?

[edit on 12-3-2009 by Icarus Rising]

reply to post by FlyersFan

Calling those who disagree with your interpretation hypocritical is

That reference was to picking and choosing verses, in case you didn't notice. You're taking things out of context, again. Might be a pattern there. And I never said I wasn't a hypocrite. I don't claim sanctity, just sanctification, and I don't need the Pope's blessing to become a saint.

I said the meaning was symbolic, the words a parable. His flesh is The Word of God and His blood is The Law, and we must injest them in our souls to be offered salvation and manifest them in our walk to know its blessing.

reply to post by concerned190


Find a 7th day Adventist or messianic church and you won't get John Darby's speculation of Margaret McDonalds dream from 1884.

No pre-trib, at least not according to my Bible, "He that endures to the very end shall be saved."

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
I said the meaning was symbolic, the words a parable.

Christ never said during a parable - 'AMEN, AMEN, I say to you .... ' He was very specific and very intense. And when the disciples all walked away saying his words were too hard to hear, he didn't correct them saying 'oh .. it's just a story ... it's just a parable'. No. He was firm.

But I won't bother any longer.
You aren't listening.
Believe what you wish.

- out

reply to post by FlyersFan


I beg to differ.

John 6

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

What is a saying? And who can understand it? Christ is not talking about His physical flesh and blood any more than he was talking about physical water to the Samarian woman at the well.

What is Christ's flesh?

John 1

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

What is His blood? The blood that covers us and makes us holy in the eyes of God? It must be the Spirit of the Law, fulfilled by his sacrificial and atoning death, spilled once for all.

Hebrews 9:11-14

However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater & more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, He entered, no, not with the blood of goats & of young bulls, but with His own blood, once for all time into the holy place & obtained an everlasting deliverance [for us]. For if the blood of goats & of bulls & the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who have been defiled sanctifies to the extent of cleanness of the flesh, how much more will the blood of The CHRIST, who through an everlasting spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to [the] living God?

Lol.. i love these terms..

"pre-trib rapture", "mid-trib rapture", "end-trib rapture" etc..

Fact of the matter is ... its a NO TRIB RAPTURE lol. Meaning theres not going to be a Rapture. There's nothing in the text which supports it other than two vague spots in the Book of Revelation. One which says, "One woman will be working while another will be gone" or some such, which people think means shes going to vanish into thin air. The other part is the description of the sealing of the 144,000 male virgin jews by God that will be taken up with Yeshua as he returns on a Cloud. 12,000 from all 12 tribes. Clearly this number isn't exact but rather symbolic; furthermore clearly it isnt going to be an exact portion of male virgin jews from each tribe of Israel; this could simply refer to 12 different nations from which the chosen elect will be sealed. Who knows exactly what it means? But what it DOESNT mean is that 30% of the world's population (all the devout Christians in the world) are going to vanish into thin air one day BEFORE the Tribulation period begins.

I'm sorry to say it folks, but the Tribulation period may have just begun. And perhaps 7 years really means 70? or 700? Can you really say you know for certain? It's all in the interpretation..

And to any moderator who might be considering to move or delete this post, I'm just trying to help people, as a follower of Christ myself, so that they won't be so traumatized once they realize that they've been sold on a lie by stuff like the "Left Behind" series, and if they believe that tribulation is imminent, they'd better get ready to go through some tuff times. Not nearly as tuff as those who aren't sealed, thankfully the devout elect will be spared the worst and wll be kept from danger. But the world will be still a terrible place to be in at that time more than any other in collective history.

[edit on 3/12/2009 by runetang]

Originally posted by concerned190
I am having such a hard time in my area finding a church that does NOT believe in the pre-trib thoery. I am begining to believe they don't exist. Does anyone know of any churches that believe Jesus is only comming ONCE?

Two things...

Sadly, there are not many such churches. I know, as I have looked and looked for a long time. No joy.

On the other hand, there ARE many of us scattered all over the place who have READ the Bible for ourselves and are not mentally incapacitated or enslaved by the prevailing thoughts or the overwhelming necessity to "fit in" and find our place amongst the other sheep. I happen to be networking with several of them now. We are starting something like a community to survive all of the chaos that we're driving head-long into right now.

You can check out a bit more at a website I put up called, www.christianecovillage.com.

It's basically about getting back to what the Bible said for living and for sharing Jesus' unadulterated message. Man at his core is selfish and has sinned and needs a savior to be saved/overcome the power of His sin. Love God with all your heart and your being, and love your neighbor as yourself. That is the short version. Our group is also in agreement on NOT killing other animals for food or otherwise-- that makes us either vegan, vegetarian, or raw foodist (you can contact me for solid SCRIPTURAL reasons behind this if you care to know).

For those scoffers among you... scoff all you want. This isn't a cult/commune or anything like it. It is logic wisdom and the independent moving of God's Spirit in people making them unifying and bring their thinking into alignment with His and bringing them together.

@ the poster who said, "why do you care what the others believe..."

Look at the early Church (in Acts). Being of like mind is VERY important. No house divided against itself will stand.... ESPECIALLY WHEN THE STORMS COME... and they ARE coming.

BTW-- Jesus is NOT an alien. He was not an alien before, and He is NOT coming back as an alien again. But He is coming. Matt 24:3, 23--45>>> umm, what part of that is unclear. He IS coming. Similar passages can be found in Mark, Luke, and Revelation.

Take heart, friend! This is a great time to be loving God! When the world is darkest is the time it most needs light and God's love. But also, remember that the Lord said we'd would be hated by all men for our association and love of Him and because we speak a message against selfishness and self. A message of conviction and spiritual "house-cleaning" and personal responsibility... MOST people just want the status quo; they don't really want to know the truth. When Jesus got personal and started talking about commitment, look what they did to Him!

Lots to say on this, but I'm already rambling... anyhoooo-- you're welcome to get involved with us (we're planning to set up shop OUTSIDE of the US in South Am. and I'm going there in 3 weeks to find land.).

Stay strong!!!

reply to post by FlyersFan


Yes, He did say, "this is my body.... do this in remembrance of Me." But He was ALSO standing there in the flesh. So you believe Jesus did not mean "this represents my body...?"

Friend, it seems to me that the wheels are coming off of your argument. Is it possible for you to be wrong?... or have you already made-up your mind to fit the facts to your position? Really I say this to everyone. I hope that we are here with a "come let us reason" mentality rather than the pride of our opinions. For if it is not we that live but Christ in us, then we should be humble enough to admit when the Spirit convicts us--

The facts are that we are in the END. Why not come together in unity and let the Lord return us to the place the Church was in Acts where we were so in love with Him, His purpose, and where we were all in one accord? We ought to be thinking about how we will survive the tribulation, prepare for ourselves and the others will come, and to continue carrying God's love as much and as far as we might. I urge you all to get out of the cities and the US in general. Choose life!!! What good is a "dead lion?" If your light is meant to shine most of all during this time, why would you allow it to be snuffed out for any reason? Be among the 5 wise virgins, not the foolish.

A group of us are doing what I spoke of and starting a christian ecovillage. And you can read a bit more about it at the website we have that is of the same name.

Love to see you all there!

Originally posted by runetang
Lol.. i love these terms..

"pre-trib rapture", "mid-trib rapture", "end-trib rapture" etc..

Fact of the matter is ... its a NO TRIB RAPTURE lol. Meaning theres not going to be a Rapture. There's nothing in the text which supports it other than two vague spots in the Book of Revelation. One which says, "One woman will be working while another will be gone" or some such, which people think means shes going to vanish into thin air. The other part is the description of the sealing of the 144,000 male virgin jews by God that will be taken up with Yeshua as he returns on a Cloud. 12,000 from all 12 tribes. Clearly this number isn't exact but rather symbolic; furthermore clearly it isnt going to be an exact portion of male virgin jews from each tribe of Israel; this could simply refer to 12 different nations from which the chosen elect will be sealed. Who knows exactly what it means? But what it DOESNT mean is that 30% of the world's population (all the devout Christians in the world) are going to vanish into thin air one day BEFORE the Tribulation period begins.

I'm sorry to say it folks, but the Tribulation period may have just begun. And perhaps 7 years really means 70? or 700? Can you really say you know for certain? It's all in the interpretation..

And to any moderator who might be considering to move or delete this post, I'm just trying to help people, as a follower of Christ myself, so that they won't be so traumatized once they realize that they've been sold on a lie by stuff like the "Left Behind" series, and if they believe that tribulation is imminent, they'd better get ready to go through some tuff times. Not nearly as tuff as those who aren't sealed, thankfully the devout elect will be spared the worst and wll be kept from danger. But the world will be still a terrible place to be in at that time more than any other in collective history.

[edit on 3/12/2009 by runetang]

Hi, runtang...

Can I ask you what the 23rd chapter of Matthew means to you, and the parallel verses in the other Gospels?

Also as far as interpreting the length of the trib period, do you not think it a strange coincidence that our transition through the galactic plane is estimated to be about 7 years? ...and that the numbers used are so specific? Do you really believe this mayhem might last 70 days or even 70 years? What of the scripture in Revelation that speaks of the very specific time period of torment "5 months" after the blowing of the 5th trumpet? Is that also so symbolic? I'm eager to hear your thoughts on that.

But I must say, I agree with you that this pie-in-the-sky hope that the Church will not be around for any trouble would be totally in contrast with all prior existing history for ANY of God's servants whether individually or collectively and contrary to all scripture I know of that speaks directly about the tribulation.

Wishful thinking as I see it!

reply to post by Icarus Rising


Right on, friend!

Very well put.... like apples of gold in settings of silver!

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
reply to post by concerned190

 

Find a 7th day Adventist or messianic church and you won't get John Darby's speculation of Margaret McDonalds dream from 1884.

No pre-trib, at least not according to my Bible, "He that endures to the very end shall be saved."

True that!

And love your quote, btw (the signature)!

Also, anybody out there HAVE SPECIFIC PLANS ON HOW TO ENDURE?

A few of us are getting out of the US... heading south of the boarder. We sure wouldn't mind being a bit more in number if anyone is interested.