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Originally posted by Astyanax
[
To the objective, perhaps; but it may yet be of immense significance to the rock.
But the rock can not say to any other rock that thier way is better if there is no objective standard to measure that by.
I'm afraid you've swum out beyond your depth, lad - a medusa, lured by our treacherous light. My advice to you now is to swim for shallower waters.
your entertaining when you wax poetic like that, but hardly convincing.
Originally posted by hulkbacker
The point is already addressed and refuted. survival insuring actions can be due to false beliefs. Truth is not necessary. if survival is possible without truth, as a naturalist one can't be certian we have surivived with the ability to percieve truth.
Originally posted by hulkbacker
ah, but which private is actually of value? the one that performed the mission.
With a God, worth and value can be determined relative to the ultimate objective.
Originally posted by Astyanax
It's okay. You don't have to explain again. It's not that hard to grasp. It's just that you're wrong, your premises are false and your logic is confused,
so going back to the beginning and repeating yourself all over again isn't really going to help.
Naturalists have the same things to live for that other people do. Among these things, as I mentioned before, are
Originally posted by Astyanax
self-respect... a sense of duty towards others... natural affection... the warmth of friendship...
and, of course, a whole host of other motivations of this kind. They may be insignificant from a cosmic perspective, they may have no meaning whatsoever in the final reckoning, but what does that matter? The final cosmic reckoning is not my reckoning and neither is it yours. Our final reckoning comes at the end of our lives, when we come to face death and find ourselves either quiet in mind or filled with fear and regret. And in your final reckoning and mine, such things must be accounted very important indeed.
Originally posted by Astyanax
So you completely missed the point melatonin and I were making, then. This wasn't it.
Certainly, that is what the private would like to think. But to an omnipotent agent, no substance* is intrinsically more valuable than any other substance.
With a God, worth and value can be determined relative to the ultimate objective.
Thus nothing has value to this God of yours except such value as He chooses to attribute to it
In other words, God is in exactly the same position as your straw-man naturalist: comdemned to seek out His own existential value and meaning.
I'm afraid the rest of your post does no more than illustrate that you have failed to grasp what we've been trying to tell you, so I'll stop now. Pouring water on ducks' backs is not my idea of a productive way to pass the time.
*Or essence, if you believe it is distinct from substance.
I do find it somewhat dubious that you spent such a large amount of time on this thread without so much as directly answering the questions of the OP.
2 questions. 1) From a naturalistic philosphy, what value does truth have? If there is no God, or no ultimate objective for our personal lives, why is knowing the truth valuable?
Underthose circumstances, wouldn't believing a lie be more valuable than knowing the truth?
IF the answer to the last few question is "yes" then wouldn't a theist who was fulfilled and made joyful in thier thiesm actually be better off than a naturalist that who is left empty regardless of who is actually "right" or "wrong".
2) If we assume naturalism, and natural evolution as a byproduct, can we be confident if ever obtaining any truth?
I have stated more than once that my value comes only from God. I have an ultimate source for my value. You have none.
The same is not true from my perspective. The final reckoning is different. I have motive for shaking your "quietness of mind" to serve a greater good. The truth of the matter is rather essential. Because there IS an ultimate objective, you actually WILL be measured against it. IF that knowledge upsets your "quietness of mind", thats hardly relevent because thats not the final goal. naturalism = truth is irrelevent. christianity = truth is essential.