God forgives all?

If there is a God (yes, I do believe) and he knows all and sees all and God's plan is always in the works and if God has already set his plan in stone:

Why would Satan defy his authority if Satan already knows his destiny? Why wouldn't Satan ask for forgiveness so he could be saved as well.

I guess the whole point of this post is:
If you know you are going to die and, you have proof their is a God and there is an afterlife (as Satan should know) why would you continue to defy God knowing full well that if you do you will suffer damnation.

Hence, if you were the Devil and you knew Gods plan and you knew your own destiny that there is no way to win, why wouldn't you ask god for forgiveness so you could be a part of it?

everone has an opinion and I would love everyones input on the matter no matter how stupid you think it is.

Well, considering you will always exist and have always existed (being eternal ... since you believe you have a soul), you pretty much have time to do EVERYTHING there is to do in existance. Trust me, eternity is a long time. Why not play the bad guy a few rounds? Of course, I throw some Taoism in, where we should seek to be balanced.

God's plan set in stone?... not sure about that. When you live for eternity, are transcendent, and can do whatever the heck you want, there is no stone. It is like the Matrix and saying, "there is no spoon." The Matrix didn't come up with that... it is an idea that has been around for literally thousands of years. If God is absolutely limitless, then this is just one type of his limitless. Life isn't about Satan, it's about you. If I was Satan, I'd probably ask for forgiveness... but God might ask me to play the bad guy. When your rules are based on infinity, there is no good or bad, there is just "being." It seems somewhat sad, but we get caught up in the fact that we "BELIEVE" we are playing a finite game. Remove the walls and you'll find an infinite game where you just need to build yourself up to be better and better. The only losers are the ones who don't play. Considering you DO exist, you're on the right track to winning... and winning is just a matter of having a good journey, because there is no end to an infinity. So have fun.

I'm sure this makes no sense, what-so-ever .

you bring up some interesting points, thank you very much. What is taoism?

hmm, maybe also because God wants to weed out all the bad people and uses Satan for his warden. Jeez religion sure is confusing, I feel so lost sometimes.

[Edited on 31-1-2003 by 29MV29]

you know that got me thinking, the bible says one day to the lord is equal to 1000 Earth years so, that would mean Satan gets to do all this bad stuff and his punishment says he will be cast off into the pits of hell for a thousand years (at least thats what I think it says) or one Godly day-not to bad of a punishment huh?

Religion has become a bad word. It did have a lot of respect that went with it, but that is no more. The days of blind faith are both here and gone. Many people who believe, don't know why (blind, while others don't believe in anything and are basically blind AND lost.

Build up a system of personal beliefs, faiths, ideas, and proofs. You'll be much wiser, happier, and fulfilled over time, but it will take a while. I'm still in the middle of my transformations, but I'm making a lot of progress. The road will always be bumpy, but you need to remember that you have 4 wheel drive.... and 4 wheeling is fun!

Taoism is currently considered a religious practice, but is actually a set of ideas that challenges that basic beliefs that people hold. i.e. Lau Tzu (writer/founder of Taoism) believed that he existed on the dark side of the moon. What does that mean? Well, he believed that everyone else assumed that they were "going towards the light," while they were actually being burned by the light of the sun. By admitting that he was on the dark side of the moon, Lau Tzu could finally get a hold of his life and start making his own path towards "the light that doesn't burn."

In all, Taoism is a set of beliefs that encourages balance in one's life, flow with nature, the ever presence of the Tao (some say God, the Way, eternity/infinity, etc), and kinship with all life... and non-life. The cockroach is as important as the human, is as important as the rock, is as important as the corn, is as important as the clock. Wow, sorry to go Dr. Suess on you. I just noticed I did that. It is a good set of beliefs, but it has its downfalls... many coming from trying to make it a religion (in my opinion).

You said:
"hmm, maybe also because God wants to weed out all the bad people and uses Satan for his warden. Jeez religion sure is confusing, I feel so lost sometimes. "

Actually, that sounds like the movie Bedazzeled. It is a good movie, but not necessarily true. Religion is confusing because a committee of people came up with it. Think of our House of Reps, Senators, Presidents, Parliments, UN, etc... basically every body of government creating a piece of a religion. You end up with a giant mess where no one agrees and no one is right. That's what has happened with religion. We are stuck with a lot of laws that no one likes, but others that you can't seem to live without.

Finally, I'd like to say that you need to put away the idea of God fighting Satan. God doesn't have to fight anything. If God wanted to, He could have blinked Satan from existance and nothing ever would have happened. This assumes 2 conclusions... there is no Satan (perhaps just an internal one) or Satan has no bearing on God's decisions. ... That brings up a good point... you have decisions and so does God. You need to choose to respect God's decisions as well as your own. Ultimate freedom can seem like a curse, but ultimate freedom comes with everyone else's ultimate freedom and that again leads to the committee problem.

Fortunately, we won't make the Falicy of Composition. That is, the assumpt that the 'parts' always have the same function as the 'whole'... such as a 'gear' has the same objective as the 'clock' that it runs. A gear really has nothing to do with the measurement of time, but the whole of the clock does. It is not a great example, but it will have to do for now. In summation, and explanation, God does not depend on us for his purpose, but God might not have a purpose if creations like us didn't exist.

Think of this: You are all-powerful and there is nothing but you (period)--emptiness of sorts. After a short while, wouldn't you be lonely? Do you have a purpose if nothing else exists? Essentially, you just "ARE." There is nothing wrong with the state of "BEING," but if you had the opportunity, wouldn't you become more? Well, stepping back into your mortal body, here "you" "are." You are proof of the only thing you know for certain. YOU EXIST. I could try to argue that "I" exist, but you could be skeptical and not believe me (like you were stuck in the Matrix). So, to create purpose, God had to extend Himself to become more than a virtual "nothingness." You are part of that result of God's decision.

I'm sure there is more to it, but for now, I'm satisfied with that answer until I come up with a better question .

Which deity?

MINE don't say that sort of thing (I'm Wiccan.) Most other religions don't say that sort of thing. In fact, most religions don't believe that being born automatically makes you the most woeful of sinners to be cast into Hell or whatever just for the crime of taking your first breath (and let's not get into the "babies are saved." If you read your Bible, you'll know that babies are NOT saved and NOT sent to heaven unless (weak link) their families are True Believers. All the little heathen babies burn in Hell.)

The problem of Jehovah being a supposedly "just" god who does injustice and creates evil (he says in the Bible that he creates evil, BTW... Isaiah 45:7) led the Christian gnostics to veiw Jehovah as Satan and propose that there was a true Deity (named "Wisdom" (Sophia)) who was a true example of justice and mercy.

Frankly, I think Taoism is a better path.

Skepticsannotatedbible.com has some links you might like to browse on a day when you're feeling particularly grumpy about the state of the Christian religion.
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com...

Um, Byrfd, no it doesn't ...only in the old kjv and thats different the Hebrew for 'evil' in the verse in the kjv is RA (which is interesting in itseslf considering Egyptian deities) can also be "distress, misery, injury, calamity"

www.blueletterbible.org...

I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.' NewKJV


I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.
NLT

I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.
RSV


But you have to look at the verse in context, not picked out randomly in the bible (easy debunkers trick)

Check out the NEXT verse....

"Rain down, you heavens, from above, And let the skies pour down righteousness; Let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation, And let righteousness spring up together. I, the Lord, have created it. NKJV

"Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the skies rain down righteousness; let the earth open, that salvation may sprout forth, and let it cause righteousness to spring up also; I the LORD have created it. RSV

Not the actions of an evil deity...

"" God is probably lonely ""

Wait a minute, how can you say what god is and is not? God does not have
a state of bordom like us humans do, we cant even imagine the hapiness god feels.

We try to twist what we feel to who god is and why he does what he does which
leads to ignorance and pride.

satan (choose) to be witout god, he does not want to convert ever. he plain out hates him and
does not want to bow down to his lord, he is filled with pride, hate, envy ect..

Some people just don't want a god and will not convert.

And if after death they some how say im sorry, it will be too late because their sorrow will be in vain and
you should know this.


Netchicken, dont bother, ive tried giving people passages in their right context and
people keep bringing up this horrible website.

Some just don't want to believe netchicken, all you can do is pray and make sacrafices for their souls.


peace.

Wait a minute, how can you say what god is and is not? God does not have a state of bordom like us humans do, we cant even imagine the hapiness god feels.

We try to twist what we feel to who god is and why he does what he does which
leads to ignorance and pride.

Good point here, but if God is outside of our realm, then we are not a valid creation. Even if you compare yourself to a cockroach, you'll see that we share many similar characteristics, aside from physical attributes, but not excluding. Every organism has feeling, reaction, and a type of life (even if not intelligent) that suggests that all organisms share common characterists. Bacteria run from the bright light of microscopes because it is like a bright, blazing sun. House pets show great deals of emotion when their keepers come home. Proper organization is essential to almost all organism's survival, including us.

I would venture to say that if we do not "know" God, then God does not exist. Since I refuse to accept that, then I assume God does have some similarities to us, as His "creations." How can you assume God can even "be happy" if you cannot understand God? Even YOU assume you can understand God at some levels, so I am just claiming the same thing. Attempts at understand ourselves and God is the opposite of ignorance... it is self expression and the pursuit of knowledge... ultimate gifts of sorts. As far as pride, yes it can lead to pride, but pride does not have to be a bad thing... only when unbalanced. The utter lack of pride is depression and suppression. That is a point of slavery and lack of self expression. Most people would rather die than be slaves. I find my logic much more acceptable than the assumption that "pride" is in itself a falicy of living.

Satan is a myth, perhaps true, perhaps not. Regardless of Satan's existance, we must be true to ourselves. You know of the old adage, "Take care of the #1 (yourself)." If you cannot be responsible for yourself, no one will necessarily help you. I understand that you put great weight on the unknown "damnation" of your soul, but I do not. If God is omnibenevolent (all good), then it would be against His nature to damn anyone to torment; instead, He would probably force us to live a life as a human for our ignorance, if anything. You seem to believe endless torture is coming to you. If you don't have a body, you can't feel pain. It is all a result of the recepter nerves throughout your body. If someone blocks the pain response, you could have a knife shoved through you and not feel a thing.

My problem with your approach to faith is that the only thing that keeps you so bent on your need to pray for everyone is the fact that you don't want them to be tortured in Hell. That is like the nuclear bomb approach in politics. It works, because we are humans, and fear being heated to millions of degrees, or shattered, or dying from radiation, but we should NOT use the excuse of brute force to overcome the reality that nuclear weapons are just a bad reality, period. They are a mistreatment of high intelligence and proof of the ignorance of the power of the human mind. No one should EVER FEAR THE PUNISHMENT over living the dream. If you want to preach, preach about Heaven, about equality, about removing boundaries, about inspiration, NOT Hell, damnation, torture, destruction, and fear.

Honestly, I'd rather live an eternity in Hell than support an unjust, hateful, torturing, spiteful God. I think the truth is, God isn't really like that... religions just want to use fear to gain power, money, and support. I refuse to support such causes. The day you cherish God for His friendship, His guidance, and His love, WITHOUT THE TORTURE, is the day you might put away your axe and pick up your friends in need.

In my opinion God doesn't feel anything and people should stop giving him a personification.

God is God, or ALL Creation, THE Creator, The purpose of existance and such.

He's not a man on the clouds spouting fire and lightning.

That is primitive Greek thought, where the God's exhibited great social thoughts...but the God's of greek mythology, were in stages.

The Olympians is the GOD of the Bible, Greek culture is very similar to ALL oral societies, and so olympians are a perfect example of the God of the bible.

But god of reality are the Elemental Gods of Theogony.

They don't have the same kind of significant social squable as the Olympians, though Earth and Sky had a bit of a scuff

But They simply WERE, they were "parts" of creation, void, sky, earth, the universe that the Greeks knew.

Well our knowledge for a long time now has allowed us to know that God isn't "Void earth sky" but All of those things, and ALL of creation...and ALL of existance...simply EVERYTHING

Not a man on a throne, though many still believe that.

That's my individual belief anyways

Sincerely,
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You are right, but if God is everything, which we both seem to agree (pantheistic), then He does share all creatures' feelings and emotions. That is perhaps the only, technically, human characteristic that I try to allot to God.

No, I'll disagree but only variently...I don't think "He" feels our emotions and such, those are our own, limited to our individual souls, but when we die or such, and are reborn again, I'd say that our experiences become a piece of god, or they become a piece of him as we live...and I often wondered if when we suffer and such...if we suffer enough, we may lose our individuality, but still retain that aspect of existing, so not breaking any rules, just losing ourselves, and in effect, no longer being reborn...

Guess it's a bit complicated but it makes sense in my head

Sincerely,
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I made a comment that said that we all get bored and would like to play the bad guy.

I now believe this is probably a false assumption of mine. Why you ask? Playing the bad guy is like attempting to cause flaw in one's existance. No one purposely, unless psychotic, tries to destroy their own life for the "goodness" of it. Creation and destruction are opposing forces, although sometimes complementary. To play the bad guy is to attempt destruction to yourself and others. This is a limitation. It removes growth, hinders performance, severs relationships, and causes numerous pains. To be evil is more of a biproduct of misalignment of one's life. It is pushing against the current of things. It should be stated that this is not just "being different," but is creating barriers and attempting to remove others.

Let's take the situation of a "evil being." The evil being removes their limitations of religion, breaks down relationships, and transforms their lifestyle. On the opposite end, they often lose healthy relationship which built onto their being, erected walls in areas where they could grow spiritually and emotionally, as well as lose many of the good aspects found within their former set of beliefs and practices.

This is where balance comes in. Everyone must test where they are in life. They must not be so "good" that they become blind to those taking advantage of them, nor should they be so "bad" that they lose the foundation that holds them firmly their strengths.

Life sometimes requires that you have a lawn mower to help you on your own path. If you take a path often traveled, you are usually lacking uniqueness and fall prey to people trying to use you. If you take the path never traveled, you have little examples and no foreknowledge of the path. You will often get stuck near the beginning if you think you can "go at it alone." On the other hand, you shouldn't take the "path less traveled," because that one is the path that everyone claims to take and falls prey to the same things as in the first path. Therefore, you must discover a new path that some have travelled in confidence and many have succeeded in their attempts. Use the examples, exert a good amount of effort, and enjoy the benefits from your chosen path. If you don't like that path, GET ON ANOTHER ONE! Don't wait, just do it!

In essence, this whole note is saying that growth is eternal. It goes on forever and beyond. When you stop growing, you are either falling prey or building false walls. You always have room to go up, but the ground is a hard reminder that you've hit bottom.

You know the old saying, "the sky's the limit." Well, I've never seen a limit once you go up, because we have found no boundaries to the universe. I certainly have seen the ground and I know which direction I choose. Now it is your turn.