Round 1: skeptic1 vs constantwonder: "I Just Ate But I Am Still Hungry"

The topic for this debate is "Eventually we will need food supplements as the soil is rapidly losing all nutrients."

skeptic1 will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
constantwonder will argue the con position.

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[edit on 2/17/2009 by semperfortis]

[edit on 2/19/2009 by semperfortis]

skeptic1 will be assuming this debate and has 24 hours from the time stamp on this post.

Semper

Thanks to Semper for setting up this debate and I hope to provide a worthy challenge to Esdad71, an entertaining and intelligent read for the readers, and a tough choice for the judges.

The topic of this debate is "We will need food supplements as the soil is rapidly losing all nutrients". I happen to agree with this. I am an environmental protection specialist, so I know what is in the soil, water, and air....as well as what isn't.

Over the years, research has revealed that our soils are severely deficient in vital trace elements important for our well-being and especially for healthy brain function. The soil is being depleted of these vital nutrients by conventional farming methods which use pesticides and extremely harmful pesticides. Modern food processing methods and chemical food additives may also further damage the nutritional value of our food, but it begins with the contamination of our soils and the deficiency in nutrients that this contamination causes. Depletion in these trace elements has been shown to cause poor nutrition which can lead to an increase in central nervous system disorders such as depression, ADD, and bipolar disorder.

The creation of artificial fertilizers put an end to the practice of replenishing minerals and trace elements removed by crops by applying natural fertilizers such as manure, seaweed, and compost. These artificial fertilizers contain excess nitrogen which leads to excess nitrates in our drinking water, as well as combining, in some cases, with selenium in the soil. The excess nitrates prevent selenium from being absorbed by the plants, hence making it unavailable to those who eat them. Deficiencies in selenium, magnesium, and iron (among other minerals) have been found to impair immune system function and to increase risks for heart disease, cancer, and auto-immune disorders.

Plants need nutrients to grow and flourish, just like people do. We eat so that our bodies can get the vital nutrients and minerals to grow and stay healthy. Since the soil is being stripped of vital minerals and trace elements, so are we. And, we need some way to replace them. The minerals are not in the soil like they use to be. The trace elements are not in the soil like they use to be. Food processing methods and chemical additives further damage the nutritional value of our food. So, in order to get the nutrients that the soil no longer contains and that the processing methods and additives tamper with, we need supplements.

We have to replace the missing nutrients and minerals in some manner. Natural, nutritional health supplements are the best form for our bodies.

Our bodies require vitamins for virtually every metabolic process in the human body. The body can't produce many vitamins on its own, so they either come from our foods or from supplemental vitamins. If the vitamins are not in the food grown in the depleted soil, then we have to get them from supplements.

Our bodies require minerals. They are the catalyst of almost every chemical reaction in all of our body's chemical reactions. Our bodies cannot make its own minerals, so the minerals have to come from our food or supplements. If the soil is depleted of these minerals, our food does not absorb them, and hence the minerals our bodies need have to be provided by supplements.

What we need in order for our bodies to function properly is no longer in our soil at optimum levels. This has caused problems for the human body; it doesn't perform or function properly without these vitamins, minerals, and trace elements. If our food cannot get its food from the depleted, contaminated soil, then we cannot get what we need from that food. We need to have supplements to replace what our food no longer contains.

Good food cannot be produced from dead soil.

Supplements are needed to give us what food grown in and by Mother Nature no longer can.

constantwonder has taken up the reins in this debate and has 24 hours from this Time Stamp to post.

Thank you

Semper

Thank you everyone that takes time out of their day to make it possible for us to have these debates. I would also like to thank my opponent for the challenge.

It is hard to argue that the soil of farms that mass produce the vegetables and fruits that most of us consume over time has not become depleted of minerals that would be there naturally. Minerals that of course children need to grow or adults need to maintain optimal health.

I use the word naturally because soil can be artificially replenished. My opponent points to additives in fertilizer that may cause a reduction in the amount of the trace element selenium needed for the body to produce some important enzymes. What my opponent fails to mention is that selenium can also be found in eggs, beef, chicken and turkey, tuna and cod.

I would also like to breifly address my opponents many references to the fact that modern processing methods and food additives are detrimental to our health. While this is absolutely true it is not the matter being debated so im not going to spend alot of time in this debate arguing the finer points of preservation or processing of food. I will say however. that the additives and packaging methods of meat and prepared food such as soup frozen dinners chips soda are far more numourous and detrimental to ones over all health.

While it absolutely true to say that we must have vitiamins and minerals to grow and be healthy, the fact is the amount of minerals and vitamins that are provided by soil can be very tightly controlled by artificial fertilizers. There has been a depletion of land with healthy soil over mans course or agriculture coming to a total 17% being rendered unhealthy. This sounds like a huge number the fact is the vast majority of this land is rough hard to farm land anyway. Most farmers both large and subsitance know the importance of letting soil rest and be replenished. It is a key to large growers to rest their fields.

All of this is beside the point that the largest study ever of dietary supplements found that just eating a healthy diet of normal food will provide all the nutrients and minerals essential for good health. Yes thats correct plain old food grown on mass production farms nothing special no need for fancy over priced mostly un-absorbable supplement.

women who swallow multivitamin supplements are not doing their health any favours – and are just creating expensive urine, according to the world's largest study into the subject.


Researchers who examined the pill-popping habits of nearly 162,000 American women aged 50 to 79 found that although they swallowed dietary supplements by the bucketload, there was no sign that they reduced common cancers, heart disease or deaths.

People who eat a healthy diet get all the vitamins they need from their food. Any excess of vitamins (the water soluble C, B1, B2 and B6), whether in the food or in dietary supplements, is excreted. Fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E, K) are stored in the liver and an excess can result in side effects.

In closing i would like to ask a few questions of my opponent.

(Question 1) Do you believe methods or resting and regenerating soil that most farmers already subscribe to are not enough?

(Question 2) Why would you reccommend to anyone to take inafective expensive supplements when it has been proven that a healthy diet will give you all need.

(question 3) You say your an enviromental specialist, tell me why you would recommend the use of manure or compost when manure and the animals that produce it are the leading emmiters of green house gases, and compost is known to carry a multitude of micro organisms that are harmfull and potentially fatal such as e-coli giardiaosporidium and giardia?

sources

www.buzzle.com...

www.independent.co.uk...
autoimmunedisease.suite101.com...

....Many thanks to constantwonder for taking up the opposing side to this debate....

First, I will address my opponent's questions:

(Question 1) Do you believe methods or resting and regenerating soil that most farmers already subscribe to are not enough?

If they actually did that, yes. But, most farmers don't rest their land.

They regenerate it by adding artificial fertilizers. And, most high-yield farms use inorganic fertilizers.

There are advantages to inorganic fertilizers:

* Nutrients are immediately available to the plants
* Exact amounts of any given element can be calculated and given to specific plants accordingly

But, there are definite disadvantages to inorganic fertilizers, as well:

* Nitrogen-based inorganic fertilizers can easily be washed away from the level of the plant's root system via rain and irrigation
* If the application of inorganic fertilizer is too heavy or is too close to the root system, the roots can burn
* Heavy applications of inorganic fertilizers can build up toxic concentrations of salts in the soil; this creates a chemical imbalance in the soil, hence a chemical imbalance in the plants

The use of organic fertilizers would be better for the soil and the plants, but it is not used by high-yield farms most of the time due to the difference in cost between organic and inorganic fertilizers. Organic fertilizers are less likely to cause over-fertilization, it provides a slow release of nutrients into the soil, it improves soil structure and workability, and it vastly improves the water-holding capacity of sandy soil.

Inorganic fertilizers are cheaper and more readily available (not to mention less messy), so inorganic fertilizer is used more. But, with it being used more, there is a greater chance of an over abundance of certain chemicals in the soil and/or a greater chance of lack of certain minerals in the soil. With that comes the risk of a chemical imbalance in the soil. That leads to a chemical imbalance in our plants.

Add to that the chemical that are in the pesticides that are used by high-yield farms and the end result is contaminated soil.

Good, healthy food does not come from whacked out soil.

(Question 2) Why would you reccommend to anyone to take inafective expensive supplements when it has been proven that a healthy diet will give you all need.

Well, as shown above, the soil that we are growing our food in is not always healthy due to the fact that the soil is not always healthy. And, since we are debating the vitamins and minerals, the nutrients or lack thereof in the food we grow in depleted soil, and not eggs, beef, chicken, or fish, we have to look at where we get the vitamins, minerals, and nutrients that our plants no longer contain.

Supplements are not bad, they are not ineffective, and they are not always expensive. Natural, nutritional supplements are best for our bodies. My opponent points out that an excess of vitamins are excreted or stored by the body. Who is talking about an excess?

If the vitamins, minerals, and nutrients are no longer in the plants that are grown in depleted, unbalanced, and contaminated soil, we need to replace what we have lost. We don't need to down 50 multi-vitamins and 30 nutritional supplements per day. We need to ingest the optimum amount of certain vitamins and minerals per day in order to be our healthiest [1]. Not all of these are available in the food that comes from our soil any longer.

Supplements are safe and provide our bodies with what we need for optimum health. They give us what the plants grown in our soils no longer can.

Just don't go overboard. Use a little common sense and take only what you need to replace what isn't in what you eat.

(question 3) You say your an enviromental specialist, tell me why you would recommend the use of manure or compost when manure and the animals that produce it are the leading emmiters of green house gases, and compost is known to carry a multitude of micro organisms that are harmfull and potentially fatal such as e-coli giardiaosporidium and giardia?

Organic fertilizer is better for the soil and better for the plants, as pointed out in my answer to your first question. It makes the soil easier to work, more stable, and organic fertilizers break down inorganics in the soil in a more natural way, making it easier for the plants to absorb them.

There are disadvantages to organic fertilizers, though. I mean, it is more expensive and it is slow release (which is better for the plants). I mean, these high-yield farms want to keep their costs low and their profits high. They don't seem to be too concerned with what is best for their soil and their crops.......organic fertilizer is slower and more expensive. But, it is better.

Compared to synthetic fertilizer formulations,organic fertilizers contain relatively low concentrations of actual nutrients, but they perform important functions which the synthetic formulations do not. They increase the organic content and consequently the water-holding capacity of the soil. They improve the physical structure of the soil which allows more air to get to plant roots. Where organic sources are used for fertilizer, bacterial and fungal activity increases in the soil. Mycorrhizal fungi which make other nutrients more available to plants thrive in soil where the organic matter content is high. Organically derived plant nutrients are slow to leach from the soil making them less likely to contribute to water pollution than synthetic fertilizers.

Source

As for harmful micro-organisms, like giardia (which mostly comes from contaminated water, by the way) or e-coli (which mostly comes from undercooked meat, unpasteurized milk, or contaminated water), those risks are low, very low. If plants are grown in soil treated with organic fertilizers, most problems with any micro-organism can be easily avoided with proper and thorough washing of the plants, fruits, and/or vegetables or cooking them properly.

The same cannot always be said of plants, fruits, and vegetables that are grown in bad soil, treated with chemical pesticides, and grown on high-yield farms that are more concerned with low cost and high production than with good soil and healthy foods.



The fact is that the nutrients in our soils are no longer at the levels where they use to be. Even the best fertilizers have their drawbacks and don't always provide our plants with what they need to be their best. If the soil can't provide those nutrients to the plants, how can those plants provide those nutrients to us?

Supplements, when taken properly to replace what our food no longer contains, give us what we need to be our healthiest.

Socratic Questions

1. Do you have any evidence that supplements, when taken properly to replace only what vitamins, minerals, and nutrients our plants no longer contain (not taken in excess) are ineffective in what one is taking them for?

2. Do you have any evidence that supplements, when taken properly to replace only what vitamins, minerals, and nutrients our plants no longer contain (not taken in excess) are bad for the human body?

3. With the depletion of the soil and the problems with various fertilizers, what is the best way to replenish vitamins, minerals, and nutrients in the human body that our plants no longer contain in proper amounts?

i would like to use my extension now

No one can deny that our soils have been worked, reworked, and reworked again to the point that nutrients, vitamins, and minerals vital to plant growth are no longer there. If those elements are not available to the plants, then they are not available to us.

I missed a point in one of my opponents questions that I would like to briefly address now:

(question 3) You say your an enviromental specialist, tell me why you would recommend the use of manure or compost when manure and the animals that produce it are the leading emmiters of green house gases, and compost is known to carry a multitude of micro organisms that are harmfull and potentially fatal such as e-coli giardiaosporidium and giardia?

(emphasis mine)

My opponent stated this in their opening statement

What my opponent fails to mention is that selenium can also be found in eggs, beef, chicken and turkey, tuna and cod.

Am I the only one that sees a slight contradiction in that statement??

So, you can substitute beef, chicken, and eggs for selenium scarce plants, but yet, there is a problem with the organic, natural fertilizer that these animals provide due to the fact that they emit greenhouse gases? Well, these animals are going to have gas and emit said gas no matter if they produce manure for organic fertilizer or not. It isn't like if we don't use the organic fertilizer they provide, they will no longer emit greenhouse gases. And, if you get rid of said animals or lessen flock or herd count, then that lessens the substitute for selenium replacing food.

And, all of this due to some cow farts??

Organic fertilizer is better for the soil and better for the plants, as I pointed out in my 1st response. And, the risk for the micro-organisms contained in organic fertilizers pointed out by my opponent is very, very small. Wash food well, cook food well, don't drink contaminated water, and all should be well.

But, even organic fertilizers do not regenerate soil to the point of it containing all of the essential vitamins, minerals, and elements that we need to be healthy. The plants can't get them, so neither do we.

Supplements are needed. And, they will be needed even more so in the future. If our soil is so depleted now due to high-yield farms, imagine what it will be like in 10 years, 20 years, 50 years. More food will be needed to feed more people as the population of our planet grows. At that point, supplements won't only be needed, they will be a necessity.

And, supplements are not evil. When taken properly, they are not harmful. When taken properly, they provide us with the vitamins, elements, and minerals that are so needed for our bodies and our minds.

Our soil is being depleted of nutrients from the current farming methods used in mainstream agriculture. This depletion of soil nutrients directly effects the nutritional value of our food. Our produce is picked before fully ripened to allow for harvesting and transportation requirements.

[1]

Is this not enough of a reason to take natural nutritional supplements? We know that our soil is depleted. We know that this affects the nutrients in our food. We know that food is harvested before it is mature, leading to yet another source of nutrient depletion in our plants. We have to look at this with clear eyes and common sense.

The nutrients are not there. We need them to be healthy. Where else are we going to get them if we do not supplement our diet to make up for what our food no longer contains??

Supplements are needed now for everyone. They are not needed in the amount that they will be needed in the near future, but they are needed now.

As far back as 1936, a US Senate report (Document 264) stated that American farms and ranges were depleted of minerals and so, therefore, was the food. The researchers who wrote the Senate document tested a large, representative sample of soils.

The implications of their report were staggering: it meant that some 99 per cent of the public were deficient in a vast array of minerals. Even at that time, it was recommended that the diets of farm animals and people should be supplemented with minerals.

The only thing that has changed since then is that the overall problem has worsened. Today’s soils - even organic soils - contain very little of what humans need every day of their lives. Consequently, most ‘food’ that arrives on our tables has very little in the way of vitamins and minerals essential to human health.

[2]

This is not a new problem, and it is only going to get worse.

Socratic Questions

1. Since this is not a new problem, how do we go about solving something that has only gotten worse over the past century?

2. With the increase in population of our planet, how do we "fix" our soils so that supplements won't be necessary?

Debate Forfeited:

skeptic1 is the Winner and will advance

Semper

[edit on 2/23/2009 by semperfortis]