Couple wrongly accused of abusing their baby cannot have their children back because it is too late

These CS judges are a special breed. Whatever the case is they always look for ways to let people know that they own your children and you are simply caretakers.

They would rather die than ever admit they are wrong. They cant show weakness in front of the animals.

The key here being loud and clear. They will do whatever they want and normal considerations of justice give way to radical CS philosophies. Primarily the belief that traditional ideas about the rights of natural parents are not primary.

Originally posted by Heike

Originally posted by FiatLux
Try understanding what I said.

How about you try understanding what I'm saying. I'll TRY to dumb it down for ya some more.

It doesn't matter now if the parents did anything wrong or not.

What matters is what is best for the CHILDREN. The parents are adults, they can deal. The innocent children who have already suffered are the ones who deserve to be happy, and that should override all other considerations.

You, as a parent, do not have a 'right' to have your own children back if it's going to upset and traumatize them.

Can you HEAR me yet?

So what you are saying, is that if Bill Gates wants my kids, that because he can give them the "best" of everything, that the court should just take them?

I think I am catching on here.

There was really nothing offensive about my last post.



None the less I will take being flagged on a thread like this as an honor.

Originally posted by Heike
Good grief, y'all sound like you're back in the middle ages spouting about "blood will tell" and stuff like that.

There's nothing magical about one's biological parents. "Natural" parents kill and abuse their kids all the time. "Real" parents are the ones who love their kids and take care of them, not the ones who contributed the sperm and the egg.

A biological parent shouldn't have an inalienable right to have possession of their offpsring that trumps the child's welfare and stability, and children are NOT necessarily better off with their "natural" parents.

I'm sure they are so much safer in foster care

The joys of foster care

fluffy bunnies and butterflies in foster care

reply to post by Heike


Your grandparents were taking care of you, and not some stranger. A non-biological care taker can abuse a child just as much as a the biological parents if not more.

All one has to do is to google to find all the horror stories of kids being abused disappeared, and killed while in foster care homes. An adopted parent may actually do worse than the natural biological parent.

You were just lucky to be placed with your grandparents for awhile instead of the hell hole some of these kids find themselves in that are much worse than the situation they were taken from.

Edited to add: Granted there are some parents unfit to raise their kids. There are also people unfit to be foster parents, and some unfit to be adopted parents even though they appear to be fit at first.

[edit on 11-2-2009 by Mystery_Lady]

CPS, Border Patrol, Customs, and the CIA all have all the rights. You have none. Don't get into their turf, you'll lose.

I have a son who was married for over 5 years. He had children. One evening, he found a sore near the anus on one kid. He took the kid to the hospital. The doctor suspected sexual abuse, but the reality was the kid had a bad diaper rash, partly due to the sewage overflow in their apartment that was still in the carpeting. Anyway, the CPS took the kids, all of them, and put them in foster custody (where they were hurt more, and didn't have the child seats for their car). Because the father had had an affair (wife said ok -- she's not too smart) to help a lady have a child, his wife held it against him (even tho she said ok), and she took this opportunity to state that she was fearful of the husband.

Well, the kid in question said "Daddy hurt me" because the mommy said "Did he hurt you" to the kid earlier.

Nobody hurt anyone.
A rape kit proved no sexual abuse. The sore was lanced and healed. The kid had one bruise --- but not from abuse.

That was a year ago. There have been four or five court hearings. The court wants the dad to get counseling. They are still not reunited as a family. The mom and kids live with the mom's mom. The dad lost the apartment because they didn't have the $ separately. He shares an apartment, pays the rent elsewhere.

Even the mom's dad told the court the mom was a habitual liar and shouldn't be believed. He felt the dad was a good guy.

This broke the family apart permanently. The dad is so disgusted with the way things turned out because of the lying of the mom that he doesn't even want to be reunited with her. The mom has an IQ of 70, weighs 400 lbs, and makes everyone else take care of her kids. The dad was the one that did the housework and took care of the kids. Now the mom's mom and mom's sister and their kids help.

CPS breaks families apart over nothing. Even the slightest hint of a problem will cause them to pick up the kids. Then they justify keeping the family apart for about two years until things are good and destroyed. At that point, I fully expect them to show that the family is defunct (because of CPS) and the kids should be adopted.

Watch out for neighbors, police, doctors. People that speak anything against you. Police believe the person who reports, not the person who is reported on.

My brother had a similar problem. His wife was insane, of sorts. She was a druggie and later hung herself, if that helps to understand. She got mad at him one evening, painted a few makeup bruises on herself, and called the cops. They believed her, didn't even see if the bruises were real, and threw him in jail. It cost him $1500 to make bail. Today, he's a bail agent. Anyway, she made it up (like my son's wife), she called the cops first (my son's wife reported crap to the doctor and later the social worker), and in both cases the innocent fathers/boyfriend were in court.

I went to the court for my son. I proved by state law that there was no problem. They wouldn't hear anything I had to say, because I was not a party in the problem. I told them he had aphasia due to an car hitting him when he was a kid, and he didn't fully understand what was going on. They said his court-appointed attorney (who is virtually powerless in the proceedings, more like a box-checker), would speak for him. I protested, wrote probably 100 pages of testimony against it all, showed proof there was nothing wrong at all, and asked over and over again for dismissal of the case. Nothing. No voice. He was railroaded.

I sent a letter to my government representatives who had jurisdiction over the problem. They replied nothing. I sent a letter to the governor. He sent back a form letter and nothing.

Ok, so the court won't listen to reason. The government representatives won't help. I tried to get a lawyer, had the $4000 ready as a retainer, but the lawyer wouldn't take the case because the lawyer said I couldn't win. And the judge is not called a judge, he's called a referee. Go figure.

WTF!

What kind of country is this?



[edit on 11-2-2009 by Jim Scott]

[edit on 11-2-2009 by Jim Scott]

[edit on 11-2-2009 by Jim Scott]

Originally posted by hotrodturbo7
I think I am catching on here.

No, you aren't catching on, because that isn't anything like what I said.

Parental rights do not automatically trump the rights of children to be safe, secure, stable, and happy.
The right of biological parents to have their kids because they want them - or "need" them, does not outweigh the aforementioned rights of the children.

I'm objecting to the fact that many people in this thread have come in and been all outraged about what was done to the parents and say that the parents should immediately get "their" kids back with little or no regard for what that would do to the children.

In a better world it would never have happened, but it has, and we can't go back and undo it. So now the wants, needs, happiness, and mental stability of these children need to be the first priority here. Do you honestly think that abruptly yanking them out of their adoptive home and giving them back to their parents is the best thing for them at this point?

The three children were taken out of the home in 2003, if you read the article. That's 5 or 6 years ago! That's a long time in the life of a child; their parents are practically strangers to them now. Yeah, jerk them out of their adoptive (not foster care, they were ADOPTED) home(s) and give them back to people they haven't lived with in 5+ years. That'll work out just great.

I still feel like crying.

Rights and wrongs don't cut any ice right now, what matters is that their situation is reviewed by people who can ACT.

Hopefully this family can get back to some kind of life together....and a very important point that I don't think anybody's touched on....will the remaining son of the natural parents ever get to meet his sister and brothers.

If anyone finds alternative sources for this story feel free to post them.

I hope this case will force SOME kind of action, sadly, maybe not for this couple but maybe for other "victims".

BTW....The original "daily mail.co.uk" posted article has been slightly updated and is here

I think the kids were probably already traumatized by being taken away in the first place. Do those opposed to returning the kids to the natural parents think maybe the kids want to be with their real parents. They were old enough to remember what happened. If the parents were good to the kids why would they not? To say it's been 4 or 5 years, therefor the kids barely remember their parents is ridiculous. I'm in my late 30's, I remember details of the first house I lived in and we moved from there when I was 2 years old.

My kids are my life. Man, if someone took my kids away because of no fault of my own, I would try following the law and proper procedures to get them back. If that failed, I would probably feel I had nothing left to lose and those people responsible would begin losing their lives. Seriously.

[edit on 11-2-2009 by Primordial]

NO NO NO

When are people ever going to see that the whole CPS thing is a travesty of the law, a bureau that totally sidesteps the constitution, and that is terrorizing far too many of us? My next door neighbor, 8, came over to my house terrified that DFCS would take them again (They were taken once because they kept getting lice). The foster parents were horrid to them, according to both her and her brother, they'd much rather be with their dad. (It was the mom that had them when they were taken, not their dad.)

So she has a sorry mom who's boyfriend took pictures of dirty dishes and is threatening to call dfcs in a bad breakup, and the 8 year old overhears it, and is scared to death of losing her home anymore.

Even though homeschooling is perfectly legal where I am, and I am in over compliance with the law really (I do more than is required)...I still tell my child to only play behind our fence just in case a nosy neighbor reports us for his being truant.

Luckily my son is almost grown. Just try homeschooling a few years, you will see the problem DFCS is, how terrified really good people are of them.

Look at the Jackson Bortz case.

Originally posted by Heike

Originally posted by hotrodturbo7
I think I am catching on here.

No, you aren't catching on, because that isn't anything like what I said.

Parental rights do not automatically trump the rights of children to be safe, secure, stable, and happy.
The right of biological parents to have their kids because they want them - or "need" them, does not outweigh the aforementioned rights of the children.

Thats all well and good but in a case like this the injustice is being perpetuated. The answer established in this cases is much worse than the solution. Its an evil hiding behind childrens rights.

In this case the decision tears at the foundation of civilization. The scoffing at the natural parents as if their motivations are purely selfish is a product of the unnatural affections and rabid, morbid, inhuman logic eating away at the nobler affection of humanity and the family unit.

It funny to people who know just how many of these case workers have no children. So they have no perspective when they spout off these hurtful platitudes about the children first and to hay with the rights of parents. Anyone with any experience raising their own kids would chose their words a bit more wisely and/or unless they are state position idealists.

**ATTENTION**

This is a particularly hot-button issue. I'd urge everyone to remain calm and contribute to the understanding and discussion and stay away from yelling at each other.

Virtually every viewpoint I've read in this thread has some validity, perhaps not so apropos to this issue and more relative to their own experience, but we should still listen and try to learn and be empathetic and supportive.

After all no one on posting on this thread is a villain, they're all parents or children of parents who are frightened by this prospect from the point of view of all sides.

Thanks for listening. Carry on, but let's be less reactionary and more sympathetic to the various views.

-Badge01
Forum Moderator

Originally posted by skeptic1
While I agree that it was horrible that these kids were taken away from their parents due to a "mistake"

, what kind of impact would returning them now cause?

This is a horrible miscarriage of justice, but those kids are now settled with new families (or a new family) and haven't seen their natural parents for years. What kind of upheaval would returning them cause the kids? Especially if they were just snatched out of their current homes and returned to people who are basically strangers to them now.

This never should have happened in the first place, but it did. Instead of being "too late", maybe the kids should be slowly reintroduced to their natural parents and see what happens.

With all due respect... YOU are out of your fing mind... Settled???? Obviously YOU DO NOT HAVE KIDS...(Yes I Am Shouting!)

Originally posted by hotrodturbo7
I'm sure they are so much safer in foster care

You're sure?

Ignorant statement beyond belief.



[edit on 11/2/2009 by nerbot]

When I was in the Navy and my daughter was a little girl (about 4 years old) she used to like to play this game called "swing me" where when we were walking I would have to swing her by the arms over a crack in the road or a parking block. One day we were going into the commissary (base grocery store) to get groceries and as usual we were playing the "swing me" game. After we had been in the store for about ten minutes Tiffany started crying and said "Daddy my arm hurts." So I left the store and took her to the base hospital. After they examined her they told me she had a dislocated shoulder and asked me what happened, I told them and they then questioned her and she told them the same thing. What happened next I was completely unprepared for.

The doctor comes out and tells me and my wife that he is going to have to report this as child abuse and take my daughter away from me. I became so angry that I told this man if he took my child, there was no rock that he could hide under where he would ever be safe from me. He then said "You do realize you are speaking to an officer, are you threatening me?"
I said no sir, I am promising you that if you take my daughter from me, I will hunt you down and kill you and you can take this in any manner you choose. You can have me arrested or whatever you desire, but I will pursue to my last breath and make you pay for destroying my daughter's and my family's lives. My life means nothing in comparison to my children's and I will not rest until my vengeance is complete.

After this he left, I assumed to call the S.P. (shore patrol, navy cops) on me; however, about ten minutes later he returned with my little girl and actually apologized to me and told me that we should not play games like that anymore (which we never did) and even showed me how to put her arm back into the socket should it ever happen again. I have wondered several times throughout my life since then what made him change his mind, I am certain it was not my threats, but something must have made him think about it, perhaps he could see the love I had for my children and the fact that tears were streaming down my face the whole time I was threatening him, or maybe he had children of his own and had played a similar game with them and realized that I was telling him the truth. In any case I am glad it turned out the way it did.

If I were these people, this judge should be worried, because nothing is more important than your children. You take my child, you might as well just kill me on the spot, because I am coming for you. Like I said before, my life pales in comparison to my children's lives and their well being and I could not imagine living without my children anyway, so the worst case scenario is they kill me and put me out of my misery which I would surely be in at that point. I feel the same way about my grandchildren now as I did about my children then. Any man who tries to take away your children for no legitimate reason deserves nothing less than death. It is one thing if the parents are abusive, but you better make sure that is the case, or else be at the mercy of their vengeance.

[edit on 2/11/2009 by DarrylGalasso]

reply to post by blackopsman


First off, you don't know anything about me. Secondly, these kids have been with this family for 4 years.....they are settled.

And, for the last time, I have never said that the biological parents should be kept from their children. I DID SAY that the reintroduction should be slow and steady so that the children are not further traumatized.

What is so hard to understand about that??

Originally posted by Logarock
In this case the decision tears at the foundation of civilization.

How could I be so silly? You're right, of course.

Human civilization and society are built on a foundation of children being another pair of hands to work, and/or the property of their parents who could do anything they wanted with or to them, up to and including killing them.

Yeah, let's go back to that. Much better. Let's repeal the child labor laws while we're at it; that should help the economy.

When I was a kid my mother tried to kill me. I went to the police with evidence on my body. They gave me milk and cookies and called my parents to come get me. I'm sure you think they did the right thing. After all, she was my mother.

reply to post by DarrylGalasso


Thankyou for sharing your story, it's a breath of fresh air to hear about compassion and understanding of your parental bond (albeit under stress) from the doctor you spoke of. He was a smart man, yes? I wonder if he ever thinks or talks about it??

I hope your daughter's well and let's hope the couple in this story restore their family again.

reply to post by skeptic1

I DID SAY that the reintroduction should be slow and steady so that the children are not further traumatized

every second the children are not reunited with the parents is further tramatizing them.

My thoughts on this are as if not far more valid than yours

Originally posted by skeptic1

.....And, for the last time, I have never said that the biological parents should be kept from their children. I DID SAY that the reintroduction should be slow and steady so that the children are not further traumatized.

What is so hard to understand about that??

Nothing...except some of us may think you're possibly wrong.

I personally believe that the sooner the return is started the better. A slow and drawn out transition may sound great, but two young boys and a young girl finding out they have another brother will possibly make this exciting and cushion any trauma.

Also, bear in mind that the adoptive parents probably haven't told any of the kids they're adopted. For them to call eachother "mommy & daddy" and "son & daughter" is a LIE right now isn't it? How far down the line will they find out and what damage will it cause then? Teenage kids can suffer big-time with those kind of revelations. Feelings of deciept, insecurity, and just good old fashioned "why?" .. Sometimes irrepairable.

I understand your conservative approach and that you are thinking of the kids (I hope) but BLOOD is thicker than water.

[edit on 11/2/2009 by nerbot]