Your anti-war posterchild...

Venezuela has the world's largest OIL supply and they're a major oil supplier to the US unlike Iraq. Venezuela has a left-wing dictator, like Saddam without WMDs/terrorist connections, that is threatening the supply of oil to the US from his country as he fights off people who want democracy in Venezuela.

Strange that the US isn't about to invade that country being that it's a bigger OIL asset to the US and that it's run by a left-wing dictator in the WESTERN Hemisphere.

How do explain our lack of focus on Venezuela compared to IRAQ if it's all about OIL??? You can't...

don't think the US isn't focused on Venezuela...there are more than two ways to skin a cat. there, we have the backing of the super middle class and the super rich. they nearly over threw the democratically elected government because they don't want redistrubution of the wealth. instead of relying on the IMF and World Bank to save them the president of Venezuela is trying to use the resources his country owns to reduce the huge gap between poverty and wealth and enhance the life of all his citizens. it can't be done with US corporations pulling the strings...so he had to cut the ties for the future of his people and that meant shutting down the oil production. gutsy, to say the least. the rich are taking the the streets against these new policies trying to force a new election...the poor far out number them and are against a new election. so i'd say that democracy is working just fine in Venezuela.

Bout Time: in america you don't "earn a right to dissent" --you are born with it.


[Edited on 30-1-2003 by Saphronia]

Originally posted by Lupe_101
you really are a twat aren't you.

What an absolutely stupid waste of bandwidth. There was no call for this, and you'd think that if the staff of this site wants decent debate, it'd soundly thrash "author" of such drivel.

It is also unnecessary to throw rocks at others in reference to their service time. Whether somebody goes into the military for four years for the GI Bill or for twenty years because they are too scared of the civilian world (unable to compete), or are in it for God, guts and country, the vet served the nation. That is more than alot can say, and they all ran the same risks.

I disagree with much of what B-T says, but his thoughts are themsleves thought-provoking and cause me to question and verify my own thoughts and opinions, and I appreciate the opportunity. And, as an eight year regular army veteran and 2 year NG beer-drinker, I am as proud to call B-T a brother as I am you, MT69.

Debate is wonderful and is enlightening, and while I agree with your position more than B-T's, MT69, I learn more from MT69's thoughts. Also, B-T is a decent human being who does not feel the need in immature and abhoorant speech as Lupe does, and I think we should recognize that.

Agree, disagree, whatever. But let's be respectful of each other. Especially between brothers.

Thanks Java, much appreciated.

Saphronia - I agree 100%; I was trying to make the point to the less enlightened that every American's opinion should be respected AND that people who are far more accomplished than he or I in their military careers have reservations as to our current course, thus enforcing the 'shades of gray' rule that applies to everything in life.

69 - Very wrong on everything ( Saph did a nice job of pointing that out)

1) Venezuela is NOT the worlds largest oil supplier.
2) OF the very, very few democratic governments in Latin America, Venezuela is at the forefront.
3) It is believed, very strongly as referenced on this site and others, that the US has engineered the trouble in Venezuela so that US Oil interests can gain a more active control over output. Convicted Felon, neo-fascist Cuban exile Otto Juan Reich is the Bush point man who met with the upper class factions in Venezuela several times before the attempted overthrow. The Bush government actually recognized the 'rebels' mere hours after they took the capital, did not lend any aid to the democratically elected leader, and then had to scrape tons of egg off their face when the rightfull government restored order several hours later. That our government is playing Nixon in the 21st century should be a point that you get yourself educated on: just pop 'Otto Reich' in your favorite search engine as a start.

Bout Time, do you believe that if the US invades Iraq then they are just going to take over the oil reserves and leave the Iraqi's with nothing ?
You can't really believe that they would be that blatant ?
If they wanted oil, all they would have to have done before the Gulf War would be to maintain the US friendship with Saddam, leaving him in control of Kuwait. He would have gladly sold oil and we wouldn't have this predicament today.
But just maybe it's because he's a despotic tyrant ruling a butal regime. Should the US do nothing and leave Saddam to his own devices ? If not for the safety of the Western World then surely for the Iraqi people.

[Edited on 31-1-2003 by mad scientist]

MS - I think that you, and most of the pro war advocates, are much more noble in your intentions than the powers that be executing events. Do I think that Iraqis will be better off, in some respects, than under their current regime? Yes & no. The blockades will obviously cease, so food & medicines will flow more freely. But make no mistake: the government for the foreseeable future will be a military one enforcing strict martial law. watch the news reports - these are secular people along the Western model, they don't live Taliban style. The resources will be run by Western oil conglomerates, not Iraqis. The Iraqis will get there's after Boss Hog gets his cream off the top. History has shown, as in the American revolution, that the only way to get control of the profits from an imperial power is through armed revolution.....when do you think the Iraqis will be able to get that sort of thing in motion, if ever, considering the encampment of the worlds greatest military?
The late Great Joe Strummer wrote : " Forced to watch at the feast, then sweep up the night, flipped pieces of coin, exchanged for birthright".

The Gulf War: the coalition we sought was the very same thing that blocked us ( meaning the US/UK) from doing it back then.
What should We Do? - Not start down the slippery slope of pre-emptive warfare, for starters. Contain &Control - the USSR was a far greater threat and it worked there and it's been working in Iraq, or was there an Iraqi invasion of Saudi Arabia I didn't catch on the news?
This stuff about 'handing off weapons of mass destruction' is such utter BS. They don't have them, but North Korea does. The CBW's that Iraq has can be made quite easily by anybody. The country has a hostile nation in Iran to one boarder, a no fly zone that takes away 2/3rd of the country and non friendlys on every other boarder ( most with US bases) PLUS a full on blockade is in effect.




Does this look like they can move without detection!?!

Just because there are no fly zones does not mean that all movement can be tracked. Just attempting to find the Scud missile launchers after several months of preperation before Gulf War I didn't happen. The notion that a handful of inspectors would find the weapons sought is in itself a pipe dream.

Concerns of who controls the oil and where the revenue of the sales go is of low importance compared to the whereabouts of the tons of unaccounted for chemical and biological weapons that he has not proven were destroyed or revealed their location so that they can be destroyed.

The burden of proof was placed on Hussein, and he only plays games rather than cooperating with the U.N. inspectors. Meanwhile, time is ticking, pushing our troops closer to having to deal with the misery of MOPP gear in the heat of a desert summertime.

If we wait until Hussein quietly slips chemical and biological agents to the groups that will put them to use in the U.S., against more innocent women and children, all the spineless debate in the world will bring none of your wives and children back. As a matter of fact, I wonder if maybe it is too late. I wonder if the onslaught of the war over there trigger those already in the U.S. with weapons to release their vials of death in Sacremento, St. Louis, New York and Baltimore. And if this happens, will the blame be laid at the feet of those who insisted on the castration of America, or will it be blamed on the administration now in office.

I felt the odd need to post on this thread.

Its now the end of 2010. the war did happen in Iraq of course, their leader was killed.

The ice cream man was correct. There was no weapons of mass destruction.
Let history show that a ice cream man had more common sense and wisdom than an entire political party.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Lol, I just read through this thread, and it's quite funny actually to see how many people supported the war, thought that we were doing it for the good of the Iraqi people and NOT for oil. The posts trying to rationalize against the oil theory seem absolutely ridiculous now, however, it's very very good proof that the media has much more control over the thoughts and beliefs of the population than anyone likes to admit. Very good dig of an old thread...perhaps we should learn something from this?

Originally posted by nwdogg1982
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Lol, I just read through this thread, and it's quite funny actually to see how many people supported the war, thought that we were doing it for the good of the Iraqi people and NOT for oil. The posts trying to rationalize against the oil theory seem absolutely ridiculous now, however, it's very very good proof that the media has much more control over the thoughts and beliefs of the population than anyone likes to admit. Very good dig of an old thread...perhaps we should learn something from this?

Amazing what hindsight can do.

Incidently, there is currently talks of war against Iran
But this is different...they may have weapons of mass destruction...this is about the safety of the middle east..and they may have had a hand in 9/11 also...
We are considering liberating the iranian people

reply to post by SaturnFX


Umm, no, the ice cream man was not correct. WMDs were found, just not in the numbers or readiness levels as we thought prior to the invasion.

maybe he is so talented that he can do what he wants and can do ie well
before an ice cream expert now an expert of WMD, Iraq and foreign affairs maybe in the future would be a expert on Astronomy