What is with all the "Christianity-Debunking" attempt threads?

reply to post by Annee


If you applied that rule to everything here, everyone would be prefacing almost everything with 'IMO' or 'I believe' or 'I think'. It's not necessary, everyone is basically expressing opinions on matters of faith and therefore the declaration isn't necessary.

On the other hand, if I said, "yesterday someone showed me the star configurations for mid-December of 3 BC and they included a conjunction of Venus and Jupiter and a variety of interesting star formations" then I wouldn't have to include the "IMO" until I said that I 'believed' the program written to show the formations is capable of accurately showing star formations from ~2000 years ago. I'm not an astronomer, I just believe that the program Starry Night works correctly mostly because astronomers who I trust not to be deluded liars say that it does. It's still a matter of faith for me but since it's easily accepted by everyone else, kind of like the existence of the chair I'm sitting on, I don't have to go through the process of declaring it.

One might reasonably ask why it is that if we're born perfectly, which you seem to be postulating here, we wind up in a sinful state? Or do we? Would people generally agree that everyone winds up in a sinful state? I'm still waiting for BLJ77 to define sin for us so then maybe we can answer that.

Originally posted by Annee
Nothing annoys me more then someone saying the ALL inclusive: "We are ALL born in sin"

If you put "I believe or it is my belief" - in front of that - no problem.

But - making it a direct statement to include me - - NO! No Way! No How! Don't even go there!

What a really dumb platform to live life from.

I was born in JOY & LOVE.

Annee,great post -I don't think theres much point discussing this concept with some religious extremists (due to the severe indoctrination and conditioning they've received) but I think you've hit the nail right on the head.
Cheers.

Originally posted by Ichabod
One might reasonably ask why it is that if we're born perfectly, which you seem to be postulating here, we wind up in a sinful state? Or do we? Would people generally agree that everyone winds up in a sinful state? I'm still waiting for BLJ77 to define sin for us so then maybe we can answer that.

Sin is a religious word and concept as far as I'm concerned. It comes from a belief.

My belief is responsibility of thought. Thought creates action.

You are a ripple in a pond - thought is who you are - whatever thought you have - has already touched many other ripples - joining with their thoughts touching many more. Everything is energy - thought is energy - once you have a thought - it is everywhere. You are your own god - responsible for your own thoughts.

reply to post by karl 12


Since I assume you're directing this primarily at me - why don't you tell me what 'severe' conditioning and indoctrination I've received?

I've certainly reaped the whirlwind of my own sin but referring to this as 'conditioning' and 'indoctrination' seems a bit obtuse on your part - unless of course you're talking about some other entity using this sin to 'condition' and 'indoctrinate' me.



[edit on 17-2-2009 by Ichabod]

Originally posted by Annee

Sin is a religious word and concept as far as I'm concerned. It comes from a belief.

My belief is responsibility of thought. Thought creates action.

You are a ripple in a pond - thought is who you are - whatever thought you have - has already touched many other ripples - joining with their thoughts touching many more. Everything is energy - thought is energy - once you have a thought - it is everywhere. You are your own god - responsible for your own thoughts.

Oh, I see. You can define it any way you like or not even entertain that concept. How wonderfully convenient that when you step on someone's toes you can simply explain it away as foreign to your universe. What do you say, "Oh, sorry, I had an irresponsible thought that led to me stepping on your toes." ???

Since you're preaching 'responsibility of thought' I might as well ask the obvious. What is irresponsible thought? What are its results? You preach that all these 'thought' ripples are interacting but you're also preaching responsibility. And this is somehow a superior way to look at the universe than the concept of God?

Maybe it's covered by m-theory (like everything else).

Title of thread: "Christianity-Debunking" attempt threads?

I believe that is what I am doing.

Point being - - I was raised - actually I prefer assimilated Christian - - being raised Christian I believe I have every right to debunk the belief. By Choice - - I left.

IMO - its a man made formulated political creation.

Am I criticizing Muslims? Or Buddhists? NO! Why? Because I don't know their belief.

Sure doesn't stop many Christians from slandering the Islam faith.

Originally posted by karl 12
Clicky:


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

i love your avatar and i love the cartoon. i dont feel so alone.

Originally posted by blj777
reply to post by spacial

 

are you righteous ? or are you a sinner ?

keep in mind...as you judge others so will you be judged

why don't you be the judge of that.

Originally posted by SumnerKagan
reply to post by spacial

 

Dude, we are just doing the best we can.
That's all we can do.
And, because we are all individuals, there are many different types of Christians.
If it was any different, it would be a sign that there is no free will. And then THAT would be a horrible problem.

We will never be able to do it all perfectly right.
We can only do our best.

dude,

never had a problem with that...

OK.

It seems obvious that at this point in time we really need to clarify sin.

For those of you joining in, read at least the last four pages to catch up. It won't take long and we'll at least have a common reference point.

Sin.


15While Jesus was having dinner at Levi's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

17On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Followers sinners... The righteous, he's not interested in. Simple.

ok so what is sin?

James:
"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (James 4:17 KJV).

Plain as Day.

Mathew:
Matthew 18:15 (New International Version)

21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[f]

32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.


If a person can do that above then he has the right to call himself a Christian otherwise he's a fake or a sinner trying for redemption. That's not a Christian; that's wanting to be one.

I think the biggest test above would be say the biggest enemies of the Christian faith say muslim fundamentalist terrorists.

OK from now on, if you call yourself a Christian then forgive here in this thread all the muslim fundamentalist terrorists in the world.

Jesus would've...

at least 77 times.

I'm a non-christian and i'll start:

I forgive all the muslim fundamentalist terrorists in the world.

I'll go even one further,

I forgive all the Christian fundamentalist terror campaigners in the world.

Originally posted by spacial
ok so what is sin?

James:
"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (James 4:17 KJV).

James is unclear, if not incorrect.
John says it better:
Sin is...
"Unbelief in Christ"

Sin leads to the making of "the universe" aka "the world".
Sin can be translated as "seriously insane notions"...about Christ.
Christ is reality.
So,
Notions about Christ that are not true will lead to insanity.
Insanity gives birth to "the world".
So,
Everything in the world is born of insanity.
Insanity gives birth to form.
Forms "act".
Actions are not where the sin originates from.
The "original sin", or originating motive for all actions is unbelief in Christ.
Sin precedes the foundations of the world.
The foundation of the world is a lie.
So,
The world is built on "sand"...and will "fall" [ie pass away].

The truth takes away the sin(s) of the world by taking away the world.
There is no world.
That is the truth.
The world is an hallucination inside one's own mind.
It is a thought...an idea, backed by the power of belief.
Who believes has the power of God, and uses it to confuse himself with madness.
Madness begins with untruth, believed in, and judged to be "the truth".
Sin is imagination.
Before imagination, there is knowledge.
Knowledge is the domain of truth.
Imagination is the domain of lies.
The world is an imaginary construct inside a powerful mind.
As the mind believes in concepts, the concepts take shape and form.
Imagination is the factory of graven images.
The world is a kind of graven image.
It is washed away by truth.
Truth washes away the entire world out of your mind.
Must want truth more than fantasies to do this.
Lies washed away reveal the truth.
You are the truth...buried by lies.

Christ!

Originally posted by Annee
Title of thread: "Christianity-Debunking" attempt threads?

I believe that is what I am doing.

Point being - - I was raised - actually I prefer assimilated Christian - - being raised Christian I believe I have every right to debunk the belief. By Choice - - I left.

IMO - its a man made formulated political creation.

Am I criticizing Muslims? Or Buddhists? NO! Why? Because I don't know their belief.

Sure doesn't stop many Christians from slandering the Islam faith.

And, what if we don't want YOU to debunk OUR beliefs?

Will you do it anyway? And, will you post it everywhere we look, post and dwell?

Wow. That sounds a lot like:

If Christians were in here trying to recruit new Christians, and force you to view, listen to, and see their reasons why you should be a Christian.

And, the fact that you are siding with "Islam" is a sure sign that you are too close-minded, or to hooked on your negative obsession to realize that Islam, and probably all other religions are guilty of the same things that Christianity is guilty of.

You are harboring a grudge against a belief.
But, you are hurting real people that have never done anything to you.

You realize that your actions cause pain to people that really believe they have found answers, and comfort, and something to believe in.

You realize this, but you continue to do it, and justify it.

THAT is the problem.

Originally posted by SumnerKagan

And, what if we don't want YOU to debunk OUR beliefs?

Will you do it anyway? And, will you post it everywhere we look, post and dwell?

Wow. That sounds a lot like:

I did not start this thread and bring attention to it.

The fact I was/am a former Christian - - Yes I believe I have every right to express my opinion on the belief.

Do I seek it out? NO. But Christians can be found in probably 99% of most discussion threads - - interjecting their position and belief.

Christians have no qualms/zero - when it comes attacking non-Christian beliefs - - - even those they know nothing about.

Christians have this Elitist attitude their belief is the right one - - so it makes it OK for them to put down everyone else.

Having been both Christian and Non-Christian - - - - I KNOW which one is more abusive. It is not non-Christians.





[edit on 18-2-2009 by Annee]

Originally posted by Christ!

Originally posted by spacial
ok so what is sin?

James:
"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (James 4:17 KJV).

James is unclear, if not incorrect.
John says it better:
Sin is...
"Unbelief in Christ"


Christ!

So you are saying James is incorrect?

John was a crackpot... Jesus was clear and well thought out. John was insane.

Jesus said it best. (and its his church)
Sin is
Not following the laws.

That is the commandments

To blaspheme against god and Jesus is forgivable

but against the Holy Spirit is not.

That is the greatest law of all laws.

To listen to the word of God, not the son but to God.

...through the holy spirit.

If God speaks to you through Jesus that's fine but not important.

Why do you think there are so many happy beutifal brilliant people in the world who are not Christian but obviously close to god?

Why is that so hard to believe?... Jesus said there are many who do not know God, like children for example but they are closer. They haven't been touched by the church yet.

In fact Jesus says it perfectly, and i can imagine that he would want to say this to you.

"If you had but the faith of a mustard seed you could move that mountain"

I suppose mustard seeds need to read bibles and have knowledge of Jesus?

I suppose Jesus got it wrong too like James?

I suppose the doom and gloom of revelation is such a better message to hear.

Originally posted by spacial
So you are saying James is incorrect?
John was a crackpot... Jesus was clear and well thought out. John was insane.
Jesus said it best. (and its his church)
Sin is
Not following the laws.
That is the commandments
To blaspheme against god and Jesus is forgivable
but against the Holy Spirit is not.

Jesus was correct.
Those with him understood him in their own ways.
Jesus message is translated by those who saw it their way.

Of the two, I would venture that John rendered a better account than James, who kept the "law" everafter in his own way.
If the meaning of sin can be confused, then the gOd of this world may keep its grip on the hearts and minds of its slaves.
To command is to control.
That is not the way of *Our Father*.
Commandments are not how "the Good Shepherd" operates.
You either love GoD or you don't.
Nothing else matters.

James did not understand Jesus.
John did not understand Jesus.
They gave us what they understood.
James did not understand what sin was.
John understood it better.
Now we must be careful as we interpret.

John tells us that sin is "unbelief in Christ".
Highlight this and understand it.
There is no other sin than this.
John may not have even understood it.
Unbelief in Christ was "before the foundation of the world".
The world arises from it.
Unless this is understood, your escape route has been cut off.

The world is a kind of blasphemy against God.
It is the task of the Holy Spirit to save us from our blasphemous imagining.
Clearly, if you resist the Holy Spirit, as you are doing, there is no way to get back Home.
If you insist that this world is not blasphemy, and that you are not its maker, then you resist the Holy Spirit, and trap yourself for as long as you unbelieve.

Christ!




[edit on 20-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Christ!

Originally posted by spacial


[edit on 20-2-2009 by Christ!]

John tells us that sin is "unbelief in Christ".
Highlight this and understand it.
There is no other sin than this.

So all the sins in the whole bible before jesus came also got it wrong? But John is supposedly right? (Also can you give reference to the chapter?)


So now the whole old testament, James, brother of Jesus and Jesus himself who is quite clear, so its not like you can reinterpret him, is wrong and John is right? according to you of course who somehow is wiser than all these people enough to determine their mistakes? Is this a joke or are you actually serious?

Jesus is very clear in what he says, his words are clear.

The world is a kind of blasphemy against God.
It is the task of the Holy Spirit to save us from our blasphemous imagining.
Clearly, if you resist the Holy Spirit, as you are doing, there is no way to get back Home.


Firstly, i have belief in Jesus yet i have no belief in Christianity. Nor does my belief include that Jesus is a God. There is only one God.

For the rest, let jesus make the comment of wisdom though i don't think he would agree with the pearls that are being cast to you.

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.[a]' 14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven...

That's your obligation if you are a Christian.

If you are wise but not a Christian then you would also agree with it.

So you and what you say are not only in direct conflict what Jesus says but further he knew it.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

It's as plain as day, there is no interpretation to what he is asking.

[edit on 20-2-2009 by spacial]

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by SumnerKagan

And, what if we don't want YOU to debunk OUR beliefs?

Will you do it anyway? And, will you post it everywhere we look, post and dwell?

Wow. That sounds a lot like:

I did not start this thread and bring attention to it.

The fact I was/am a former Christian - - Yes I believe I have every right to express my opinion on the belief.

Do I seek it out? NO. But Christians can be found in probably 99% of most discussion threads - - interjecting their position and belief.

Christians have no qualms/zero - when it comes attacking non-Christian beliefs - - - even those they know nothing about.

Christians have this Elitist attitude their belief is the right one - - so it makes it OK for them to put down everyone else.

Having been both Christian and Non-Christian - - - - I KNOW which one is more abusive. It is not non-Christians.

[edit on 18-2-2009 by Annee]

You just proved my point.

I'm Christian, and I haven't been attacking anyone, or forcing my beliefs upon anyone.
Take a look at my posts.

And, I am no different from MANY other Christians.

Originally posted by Annee

The fact I was/am a former Christian - - Yes I believe I have every right to express my opinion on the belief.

Do I seek it out? NO. But Christians can be found in probably 99% of most discussion threads - - interjecting their position and belief.

Originally posted by SumnerKaganYou just proved my point.

I'm Christian, and I haven't been attacking anyone, or forcing my beliefs upon anyone. Take a look at my posts.

And, I am no different from MANY other Christians.

Congratulations on being that 1% (I am not going to go back and verify your claim). There are truly those who walk in His footsteps - that remain outside the blanket.

I have been blogging and on forums for over 10 years staring with ICQ.

Over all - and under the blanket - - Christians seem to believe they have to interject their perspective in every subject I've ever discussed. I have never experienced any other religion in mass that does.



[edit on 20-2-2009 by Annee]

reply to post by Annee

Maybe those Christians just felt you are evil, and must be destroyed! Hehe.

But seriously...

If you hang out in message boards, you are going to encounter people that want to have their voices heard. No matter what their point of view might be.

You may not realize it, but you are on a mission. And nothing anybody says is going to keep you from continuing.

Originally posted by SumnerKagan
reply to post by Annee

 

Maybe those Christians just felt you are evil, and must be destroyed! Hehe.

If you hang out in message boards, you are going to encounter people that want to have their voices heard. No matter what their point of view might be.

That is not what I said. I said - posters of religions other then Christian do not invade in mass.

Sometimes people of other beliefs will comment - - but they do not descend in mass forcing their belief and admonishing other beliefs. Only Christian do that.