What is with all the "Christianity-Debunking" attempt threads?

reply to post by SumnerKagan

I would worry about them for religious reasons. But, not only religious reasons. I would worry about them because homosexuality is a difficult lifestyle. I would worry about them because it is an unnatural state, whether you support Creationism or Darwinism

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My children are not affiliated with any religions so stop worrying, when they grow up, they may decide to check yours out. I'm sure as much as I you would want them to base any decisions they make in relation to religions, on evidence and reason. So please don't worry, they'll decid for themselves.

I wouldn't know if homosexual life is more difficult than heterosexual life, I would imagine it to be much harder than a celibate life, but that's only from a horny man point of view.
Am I to assume that you're a homosexual seeing as you know this lifestyle is hard ? If so who exactly is making it hard for you ?

Perhaps the hardness of life is a relative thing, surely then can be not much a harder life than that of an Iraqi baby screaming form the effects of depleted uranium ?

But, not only religious reasons. I would worry about them because homosexuality is a difficult lifestyle. I would worry about them because it is an unnatural state, whether you support Creationism or Darwinism

It is impossible for the creator of everything not to have created anything,and given that homosexuality has been around in both animal kingdom and humanity for thousands of years, then that's chucked creationism. out.

Darwinism is defined by evolution and as we are an evolving species be that physically or mentally, then anything is possible, we as a species are capable of almost anything should we choose to get along with each other.

There is absolutely nothing unnatural about nature, that is a self contradicting statement.

And, today, the fact that society is being forced into situations of different degrees of acceptance, sometimes forcibly, it cause a lot of negative attention to be place on gay people.

This negative attention has come from thousands of years of religious sexual repression and nowhere else.

So, no, I do not think it is a sign of a person being "evil", and deserving "Hell". But, as I stated above, it is difficult, uncomfortable and confusing for these people. And whether it was my child, or somebody else's, I would worry about their feelings, safety, and comfort.

I would be a fool not to be concerned about my children s safety, but as for their comfort, well I encourage them to be comfortable with themselves and who they decide to be that has priority.

You obviously are not familiar with the fact that certain gay rights groups have actually circulated "their" information and promoted their lifestyle with schools, including kindergarten and grade schools.

Yes I am familiar with this, It would piss me off immensely if any group tried to influence my children in relation to a lifestyle at such a young age.
The type of lifestyle is irrelevant , I would be equally pissed off should the mormons, christians do it or some hetrosexual council.

n some cases, it has permeated children's entertainment as well. And, while I do not want to attack how they live, I do not want them deciding when or if my children are exposed to ANYTHING, let alone a lifestyle that is affected by abnormal sexuality.

I fully agree with you dude, religion has also permeated childrens entertainment, this is absolutely unacceptable. However what is and what is not sexually "Normal" is a matter of opinion that should be left to the individual unless it brakes the law or causes harm to another.

So, please, at least try to be honest, and stop depicting your views and lifestyles you are protecting, as all good, and always victimized. Every group, every culture, every religion and ever perspective is capable, and has been guilty of victimizing, going too far, and not being open to the feelings and ideals of others.

I'm not trying to protect any lifestyles my friend, I'm trying to protect the rights of my children to "CHOOSE" their own lifestyles, whatever they maybe.

There is plenty of evidence that Jesus was a real person. But, that is outside of this thread. As a matter of fact, if you do a search on this site, you will probably find plenty of threads relating to this argument.

Yes there is plenty of evidence that there were many men by the name of jesus in and around the times in question, this is not disputed.

I was simply stating that the texts that depict the words of Jesus, were uplifting, humble, positive and did not involve the traits that surround the negative stereotypes of Christianity.

Well it took one hell of a long post to get this point, why didn't you say that to begin with?

I am not trying to defend the existence of my religion, but I am defending it from attack and unnecessary ridicule. THAT is what MY thread is about. It was the detractors, such as yourself, that began with the attacks on the acceptance and foundations of Christianity. Personally, I’m not worried about it.

Dude, please try to get this, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST YOU, how you live your life is up to you. What you claim to be your religion has historically and would now, try to dictate how other people who do not believe the same thing should live.

If you do not consider yourself to be one of the types of xtians that would try to dictate morals to others, then perhaps you should stay out of the firing line. Not all secular people are stupid, many are actually aware that not all xtians take the bibles literally as written by a god and their way is right. Unfortunately man many do and these are normally the first to shout bible verses at the world.

If God did this, you and I would be discussing how terrible it is that God is forcing his will upon the world, and not letting us decide for ourselves in a neutral manner.

Dude, I and MILLIONS of other people do not believe in the existence of the god of the bibles. This god gives the people who believe in it a choice, they act according to it's will or are condemned to damnation etc if they do not. It is that simple, so by definition there is no choice. There is no neutral ground, obey and live disobey and die in misery for eternity type thing.

Either, way we don't care as long as the people who do believe this stuff don't try to force us to believe it. And as you say you wouldn't do that , cool no worries.

Wrong again. I’m not telling the world to come into Christianity. I’m saying, lay off my way of life, stop attacking us, and if they have a problem with a specific Christian Individual, take it up with them. We are individuals just like you.

Isn't that the darndests thing, dude no one is attacking you or your way of life, it is religions that are being attacked for defensive reasons.

Why did the thread catch your eye?

Because I would like to live in a world full of spirituality and no religion, that would be a much safer place for my children to grow up in.

[edit on 14-2-2009 by moocowman]

Before this goes any further.. First of all we need to define Christian.

Because let's face it any old person can say they are a Christian, it doesn't mean anything.

OK so lets break this word down into linguistical understanding.

Christ-ian.

I would have to say that a Christian is a follower of Christ from that. Does anyone here disagree?

Ok, so a Christian is a self confessed follower of Christ.

We know that this means very little because many Christians have done evil things under the banner of Christianity. In other words being Christian does not afford any kind of special protection by God.


Jesus was a very interesting person (or god head to those that believe he is a humanly incarnation of God)

Lets see from his very words what he meant to be a follower. I mean you call yourself a Christian then you want to follow Christ right?

From his own words...

Mathew 5 9
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.


He called himself the son of god and tells you how to become one yourself... Easy as 1..2...3

2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

To find a Christian that helps people but does not announce it with trumpets (or good marketing) That would be nice...

But what about being a follower of Christ, a true Christian? Is it just a word or does he give guidance to what it is like to follow him. To be a true Christian...

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

Ok so obviously he prophesied a lot of people would come speaking on his behalf...

He would certainly criticize them if they were saying they were Christian and were not behaving as such..
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men

continued...
24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save his life[h] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

So Jesus is quite clear on what it is to follow him... or to become a Christian.... He or she must take up the cross...

21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

He also says he must give away all his possessions... not to a church but to the poor directly...

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

So many self confessed Christians are like this...

27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed.

Conclusion: A true Christian or follower of Christ by his own definition would be someone who gives up all their possessions, gives them to the poor and then follows him to the cross. He would do this by criticizing his own church (as Jesus did)

So from further on if you call yourself a Christian please make sure you fit the above criteria otherwise you are a hypocrite and as far as Jesus is concerned you are not a follower of his.

Verily a prostitute and a tax collector has more of a chance of getting into heaven than you...

reply to post by spacial

21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Wait a minute, as far as I'm aware, but none of the people that would dictate to me or my children how we should live. ,have sold everything they've got and given the proceeds to the poor. The majority of the mouthiest of these people live in the wealthiest nations on the planet !

Clearly, as most extians in the western world live a very material lifestyle, they obviously don't want to be "perfect".

Although I am of the secular world and have no time for religious dogma, I find this situation to be the height of hypocrisy.

Why is it do you think that xtians do not follow this very easy to understand instruction from their god ?
Do you think they are afraid to as instruction says so would choose to deliberately obfuscate it's meaning ?

What' is there to be afraid of? If you believe so strongly why wouldn't you do what your spiritual leader tells you to do if you want to be called a follower of them?

Have to wait for one of them to reply...








[edit on 16-2-2009 by spacial]

Originally posted by moocowman


Why is it do you think that xtians do not follow this very easy to understand instruction from their god ?
Do you think they are afraid to as instruction says so would choose to deliberately obfuscate it's meaning ?

I don't think most Christians listen to their god. I think they listen to their respective churches.

I think Jesus's words are very clear. No Christian could obfuscate the meaning. I think a lot will try but the whole of his message in the bible is about the relationship of God OVER religion. Thats why he got put on the cross.

I think Jesus worked out that Christians would come along in his name.. He mentions it so many times. He is quite clear i what he says. Nothing made him more upset.

The point is what i am saying is that most non Christians could get a lot from a spiritual perspective reading the chapters from the disciples. Learn just how hypocritical many Christians are. You don't need to become one to enjoy the story.

Sometimes i think the devil made Christians just to keep people away from reading Jesus's words. LOL

It's a very interesting read. Stay with the historically verified Chapters of the disciples. The only dubious one is John of Patmos. This seems out of line with the rest and historic examples are not found as early as say Matthew Mark and Luke.

The New Testament was of course created by the Pagan emperor, Constantine at the council of nicea and it could be quite a reality that while he could not take away the inner works so close to the Christians at the time, he could take away some of the other gospels that were known to Christians at the time and also add some of the periphery and therefore dubious gospels like Paul and John for instance. Thats why always be careful of a Christian that quotes Paul or John too much and not Christ himself.

That off course was the birth of the Roman Catholic Church and it's variant protestant offshoots. It was also where the idea of the trinity was created making Jesus a God. (it is quite interesting to note that Constantine was the first Roman Emperor to have his face as a Roman God on a Roman coin - the Sun God)

But this conversation should stick to what Jesus said for his words are the seeds for what it means to be a Christ-ian and that is the debate of this thread.

Should we be able to criticize Christianity? Jesus was hang on the cross for criticizing his own church. He simply said if you want to follow him then you should follow him to the cross, which of course means Criticizing the hypocrisy of your church against all the odds, the social control and the brainwashing.

That is what it means to be a true Christian. Having a direct relationship with god.

Yet it is impossible to find a Christian with the faith of a mustard seed let alone a non- christian.








































[edit on 16-2-2009 by spacial]

reply to post by spacial

Thats why always be careful of a Christian that quotes Paul or John too much and not Christ himself.

It's interesting to not that, xtians seem completely unable to function with the words of jesus alone. This would imply that whatever jesus had to say was not enough, which is hardly the type of behavior one would expect from the creator of all that there is.


I recently asked a "real christian" [his phrase not mine] is it possible to follow his gods instructions and live that life just by using the actual word of jesus alone.
His answer was emphatically yes, but when asked why he chooses to spend so much time and energy trying to figure out what all the rest of the bible meant. He was completely unable to explain why, when it is surplus to requirement and nothing but superfluous dogma.

It is very sad to see that when mature intelligent adults "get saved " they appear to lose the ability of reason and critical thinking.

I shudder to think that people like this, gain positions in life that have the potential to influence the lives of other people.

Clicky:


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by Ichabod


Are you a sinner? or are you righteous?

reply to post by spacial


are you righteous ? or are you a sinner ?

keep in mind...as you judge others so will you be judged

Originally posted by karl 12
Clicky:


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by blj777


What a broad series of questions, your acting as if the world is so black and white that two people would be seperated into this two radical ends of spectrum. Is there no in between? Can you only be Good or Evil? The questions you asked made absolutely no sense, although I do believe some people may live to the code of being insanely good to others no matter what, such as buddist monks. But general society is not going to be so clean cut, people are going to be involved in both parts of life; like most they live a respectable life by day and then have a taboo night life. Your questions are meaning less in a world that isn't divided into these two simple categories; a better question is which side one tries to live their life by, good or evil. Most who are immoral wouldn't answer the question truthfully anyway so its pointless.

reply to post by spacial


Dude, we are just doing the best we can.
That's all we can do.
And, because we are all individuals, there are many different types of Christians.
If it was any different, it would be a sign that there is no free will. And then THAT would be a horrible problem.

We will never be able to do it all perfectly right.
We can only do our best.

reply to post by SumnerKagan




Funny how some folks quote the bible, to use it to debunk those who quote the bible.

Originally posted by burntheships
reply to post by SumnerKagan

 

Funny how some folks quote the bible, to use it to debunk those who quote the bible.

Is there something wrong with this ? If an individual claims that I should live my life according to their belief system and they (as many do) would given the opportunity, influence my life's choices in order to do this.

Then I should logically question their authority, when the authority is claimed to be that of a god that exists in the mind of the individual and the texts/writings that the individual is prescribed.

What is wrong pointing out obvious flaws in what is claimed to be the authority of the individual ?


Here is an example -

Colin says I should live my life like this or that, I ask why and Colin replies that god commands it. I ask Colin how he knows god commands it and I point out I don't believe in this god. Colin replies that the authority comes from the bible which is the word of god and is truth.

I point out an error or contradiction in the bible which he has loaned me to read to prove the authority.

Colins' case relies entirely on the bible being inerrant as it his sole claim to evidence of his moral authority.


For Colin claim that his recipe for pancakes is the only one that makes perfect pancakes is quite a claim, especially if I make pretty damn fine pancakes myself.

However if Colin insists that I use his recipe and lends it to me and the ingredient list contains one egg and a unicorn but the mixing instructions ask me to whisk 2 eggs and three unicorns.

Then surely it is acceptable to point out to Colin that his recipe is flawed especially when Colin has never actually produced a pancake (let alone a perfect one) he's made with this recipe ?

Sometimes when we talk crepe it can make sense lol


[edit on 17-2-2009 by moocowman]

Originally posted by wmd_2008
Another well known religious book was written by a man who spent a lot of time in solitude in a cave and claimed god spoke to him and told him to write the book.
Now IF I WROTE a new HOLY BOOK today and said that god had spoken to me and had told me what to write would YOU or anyone else believe me I DONT THINK SO!

No, but in 2,000 years, everyone would believe you .
Just as time has a positive effect on wine, it also makes extraordinary stories more believable - I still haven't quite figured that one out .

Originally posted by burntheships
You are even making assumptions about your children and what they will choose in life etc. You clearly state that you would not want them to believe in God. And as if you are so powerful, you render God useless! WOW!

And how would you feel if your children believed in and worshiped Zeus?
Methinks the hypocrisy is ripe for the picking .
Surely, you also would be upset if your children believed in what you believed was a lie...

Originally posted by SumnerKagan
I would worry about them because homosexuality is a difficult lifestyle.
I would worry about them because it is an unnatural state, whether you support Creationism or Darwinism.

Unnatural?
I guess the thousands of animals who take part in homosexual activities did not get that memo.
Perhaps you (or your God) should remind them.

Originally posted by blj777
reply to post by Ichabod

 

Are you a sinner? or are you righteous?

Sinner - and I know what I mean by that.

Would you care to define each term for others?

Nothing annoys me more then someone saying the ALL inclusive: "We are ALL born in sin"

If you put "I believe or it is my belief" - in front of that - no problem.

But - making it a direct statement to include me - - NO! No Way! No How! Don't even go there!

What a really dumb platform to live life from.

I was born in JOY & LOVE.

Originally posted by burntheships
reply to post by SumnerKagan

 

Funny how some folks quote the bible, to use it to debunk those who quote the bible.

If I was going to try to debunk say...Hitler, I would not use his own writings such as Mein Kampf...or Zweites Buch.

Originally posted by burntheships
You are even making assumptions about your children and what they will choose in life etc. You clearly state that you would not want them to believe in God. And as if you are so powerful, you render God useless! WOW!

You missed two little words...."as if"