What is with all the "Christianity-Debunking" attempt threads?

Like I said - I understand Circumstance. Preference - anyway you look at it - denotes a choice.

Women in Iraq are born into Circumstance - - I'm sure they would prefer things were different. They would choose for things to be different.

reply to post by moocowman


You last post is quite long...and you make several assumptions. Even assumtions based off of assumptions.

This is a not a criticism of you just pointing out our differences. I am not ignoring all that you wrote, it is just way too exasperating for me to try to address your assumtions about me and what I think, and believe, when they are almost all off base.

It would be much more productive in this case of forum discussions if you asked questions instead. Of course that would only be good for you if you are really wanting to know what other people think and believe. If it is more comfortable for you to assume, then you might want to ask yourself why you are not comfortable with finding out what others really think.

That is why I am in this thread, to find out what others think, and this post is not just directed at "moocowman"

In any case, moocowman, my first question for you was about your signature was what I was curious about. You use the word hate. "Hate" is a strong word, and a very strong emotion. A lot of energy is used in this world "hating"

A big waste of peoples energy. Naturally one would wonder if "hating what christians do" is equal to "hating what murderers do, what child molesters do, what drug dealers do" etc. That is the question I had for you. Maybe, I dont know and I do not want to assume...but maybe you hate what Christians do as much as you hate what murderers do? Do you?

moocowman, you have sort of answered that question, and that was the only question I had in the beginning. The reason I asked that question, was tied to the content of this thread. ""What is with all the "Christianity-Debunking" attempt threads"". It has been my experience that no one is left without an opinion when it comes to God, Jesus, Christianity, and the Bible.

Everyone has a position in the end. Some people against Christianity have strong opinions...like you..."hate".

I am a Christian. I do believe in God, the God in the Old Testament, and the God in the New Testament. I also believe in Jesus, that He is God's Son, He was born of man, was fully God, and is the atonement for man's sin. Mainstream typical Christian Theology...yes I beleive. Christianity is not new...and neither is my faith. I have lived long enough to see some pretty bad people, I have been burned a few times in life. I do not have a fairy tale belief in God. My faith has been quite tested, although I do not believe that I could even have faith unless it was given to me first, by God. I have lived long enough to see that in the end we all choose something to believe in, even if we choose to believe in nothing. There are a few people in this world that I have been tempted to hate. But, as God has clearly told me, that would be wrong, dangerous, and a waste of my energy. A complete failure on my part.

I also believe that God is love.
1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not love does not know God, for God is love.

I aslo believe that God is loving, and in the Bible many times warns us strongly about "hating"
1 John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

And I have alway found this concept to be true. People everywhere "hate" God, "hate" Jesus, "hate" Christians.
John 15:25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled, which is written in thier law, They hated Me without a cause.
1 John 3:13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.

So...all that and I am still stuck on just the word "hate"

But it is a big word is it not? In my opinion it is central to the idea of this thread.

Originally posted by burntheships
reply to post by moocowman

 

So...all that and I am still stuck on just the word "hate"

But it is a big word is it not? In my opinion it is central to the idea of this thread.

You are correct. I was looking for the key motivation in these "Attack Threads", as I call them. Whether it was fear, misunderstanding, hate or something else.

Whatever the motivation is, it is plain to see that these people are blind to the fact that they are acting in a negative, twisted and destructive manner.

Much like the examples of Christianity-gone-wrong, that they use to justify these actions.

reply to post by Ichabod


Your talking about someone who blindly follows the culture of society. Although this is the instance for some it is not the influence of all. I for one am not swayed in the slightest by political views or what society tells me to buy, so I suppose I am an enlightened being or something???? Or is it just that your data only follows the lines of mainstream society and not every hermit in his cave.

reply to post by Annee


The fact that we have preferences suggests that decisions will have to be made. If that's your point, I agree. But we're little decision making engines anyway so that's hardly debatable.

A better example might be an Iraqi woman who converts to Christianity. Now she really gets to put her preferences to the test since virtually every decision could be life or death. Does she want to enjoy her new religion or live hidden in the Islamic culture to avoid persecution? These are trade offs that each makes on their own. The fact that a person converts to Christianity at all in a society where it is a crime might also be taken as preferential depending on what you think of the concept of the 'elect'.

A great example of this appears in the book of Daniel. He preferred to die rather than worship other gods, eat food sacrificed to idols, etc.

Originally posted by TNT13
reply to post by Ichabod

 

Your talking about someone who blindly follows the culture of society. Although this is the instance for some it is not the influence of all. I for one am not swayed in the slightest by political views or what society tells me to buy, so I suppose I am an enlightened being or something???? Or is it just that your data only follows the lines of mainstream society and not every hermit in his cave.

You mean on the issues of preference formulation and modification? Everyone is subject to this outside of a blind, deaf hermit in a cave. You have eyes, you see billboards, you probably watch TV, or you hear radio. You might think you're not swayed but that just means your delusional and dishonest about your current state of existence. Whether you're U.S. or not, who did you want to win the election? Are you saying you were and are preference neutral? How about what you had for breakfast today or lunch yesterday? What kind of car do you drive? What did you wear to work today? Was it a functional and completely utilitarian sack cloth?

I would dare say that the hermit would have to be one from birth, without access to his parents to not enjoy a little outside reprogramming.

At any rate, get in touch with your preferences and start wondering about why you have them. They're involved in every conscious choice you'll be making today so you shouldn't be lacking for data.

reply to post by Ichabod


You don't seem to understand, I'm not materialistic in the slightest and I only buy out of necessity. So where in does that mean I'm affected by the media? Your generalizing and if you think everyone is swayed by what they see on tv and hear on the radio then you my friend are the one who is being dillusional not to think there is an opposite to everyone and everything. Therefor my arguement being that if there is someone who blindly follows these things, there is someone with the same amount of equal influence that does not. Science teaches me this and it is a principal of it. Again any preference I have comes from how I was raised, people have materialistic/ignorant children as well.

[edit on 13-2-2009 by TNT13]

reply to post by burntheships

I believe in my last post I withdrew any assumptions, and as I recall I also apologized for my error.

So...all that and I am still stuck on just the word "hate" But it is a big word is it not? In my opinion it is central to the idea of this thread.

I believe that I addressed this in my last post, in summary, I have used the word hate in a context that I have learned from christians which has been demonstrated to have been conceived by the yawehgod as this god is alleged to be the first cause.


At the end of the day hate maybe a big word but it's not my word, I don't choose to use it neither do I intend to demonstrate it in my life. However I used this word in this instance, in a manner that should be totally understandable to Christians, so that they may know that I don't actually hate them as sometimes claimed.

As regards to debunking xtianity threads, well I'm sure each poster has their reasons for posting.
From a personal point of view I post because I get pissed off with someone else or a group of people that would try to dictate to me how I or my children should live our lives.

If islamists or jews or jehovas witnesses start threads here, I probably would join the discussion no differently if they go out of their way to dictate how I should live my life.

Not rocket science this, believe what you want to believe just don't try and force your (religions that is) beliefs on me or my children.

reply to post by SumnerKagan

Whatever the motivation is, it is plain to see that these people are blind to the fact that they are acting in a negative, twisted and destructive manner. Much like the examples of Christianity-gone-wrong, that they use to justify these actions.

So if one of my children decided to become a gay or a lesbian and decide to get married christianity would mind its own business and not try to dictate how they should live their lives .

"Blind to the fact that they are acting in a negative destructive manner" ?

I personally don't go round telling other people how they should live , that is most definitely negative and arguably self destructive.

"Christians gone wrong"

So which are the ones that have gone right, as MOST xtians claim their right.

Is there a special list somewhere for the benefit of the secular world, that gives detail of xtians that have "gone wrong" so we can be dictated to by the ones that "are going right"?

You see xtianity is completely missing the point, the secular world simply "does not care" what it chooses to believe, but when those beliefs would impinge upon our lives, then the secular world will question (harshly) the origin of xtainities moral authority.

Religious feet will be kept to the coals when they try to walk over others and rightly so, regardless of what religion.

I just want to say that if people want to get a good idea on many aspects of religion-bashing, see the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed!
I am STILL watching it and I am SO impressed!!!
If you haven't seen it, do so!



Man, it covers so much on these types of debates!

[edit on 13-2-2009 by Clearskies]

reply to post by moocowman

Well, I'm part of "Christianity", and I would have no problems with your children. I would worry about them. But, unless somebody asked my opinion, I would keep it to myself.
And, I would ask that your children didn't try to push their lifestyle and views, upon my children.
The Christians that are "right", are the ones that really try to emulate Jesus.

One of the biggest differences between Jesus and the Christianity that seems to have turned people away, is that Jesus did his teaching, warning, loving and fighting, all from the lowest point in society.
Jesus did not attempt to gain power, elevate himself, or strong-arm people into coming to believe his words.
No matter what he did, Jesus made sure he stayed humble.

[edit on 13-2-2009 by SumnerKagan]

Originally posted by moocowman

Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by moocowman

Henry the 8th got pretty pissed off with the Pope (he of the catholics that invented xtianity) because the pope was collecting more revenue (taxes) than he the king.

No it wasn't, it was due to the fact that the pope wouldn't annul Henry's marriage (Henry wanted a male heir and his wife at the time just wasn't producing them) so Henry decided to use the reformation for his own gains - which did net him large amounts of cash and land and the ability to have as many wives as he liked.


G

Although I don't disagree with you, I'm sure historians will be arguing this till the cows come home, perhaps I could have implied Henry was pissed off with the pope for many reasons. One of those reasons being the taxes thing along with the annulment, it would be naive to think that the dude had not considered the incredible wealth and power he would gain from the whole affair.
Thanks for the slap on the wrist Shihulud, but that doesn't really dismiss the point I was making, and would have required a longer post.

Not a problem, all I was doing was giving it in the correct historical context before some religionite descended upon your quote and tried to superimpose some religious nonsense over it. No doubt Henry did realise the wealth and power he would gain in converting - although it did backfire to a certain extent.

I salute you as one who is willing to suffer the deluge of religious nonsense in these threads ( I gave up a while ago - only peeking in every now and again to throw in my tuppence worth).

Time to go away again - Keep up the good fight my friend.


G

Originally posted by Clearskies
I just want to say that if people want to get a good idea on many aspects of religion-bashing, see the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed!
I am STILL watching it and I am SO impressed!!!
If you haven't seen it, do so!

Man, it covers so much on these types of debates!

[edit on 13-2-2009 by Clearskies]

I have seen it and it still doesn't change my mind or views in the slightest - still an atheist.

It was quite interesting though and advise everyone to watch it.

G

All religions get bashed WHY because they are all rubbish plain and simple Man Created God NOT THE OTHER WAY have a look here

www.lowchensaustralia.com...

All the gods on there have just as much right to be believed in than any other!
Pick a God on there anyone you want, all races have their God(s) and creation stories and thats all they are stories,
primitive men asked themselves question like we do today how did we get here what created the earth, universe etc
they could not explain it so stories get made up.
The bible was written by at least 40 different people over a period of 1500yrs DO you really think its ALL true.
Another well known religious book was written by a man who spent a lot of time in solitude in a cave and claimed god spoke to him and told him to write the book.
Now IF I WROTE a new HOLY BOOK today and said that god had spoken to me and had told me what to write would YOU or anyone else believe me I DONT THINK SO!
The real thing about religion is POWER over normal people the believers ,look at the Pope or Muslim Clerics look at the control they have over devout believers thats what religion is about control nothing else!

reply to post by SumnerKagan

Well, I'm part of "Christianity", and I would have no problems with your children. I would worry about them. But, unless somebody asked my opinion, I would keep it to myself.

So why exactly would you worry about my children ? Do you not think I am of little parenting skill?
My children are happy, well fed (too well in some instances lol) they have a roof over their head and clothes on their back.
They attended school regularly and are doing very well, they are learning to get maximum information before forming an opinion, and it's in everyone's that they their opinion be changeable.

They don't judge or condemn others (at this time) and see people as people, not colours shapes or sex types.

My kids are doing fine, so please don't concern yourself about them. I f the yawehjesusgod allah dyonisis ,zeus or anyother god , wants to get involved with their lives, then as an alleged creator of all that there is, then who am I to stop it.

Until then they can go through life without superstitious religious opinions of men quite happily, who knows they may eventually create a world free from dogmatic religious delusions.

As babies my children didn't need comforters/dummies and as young adults they wont need religious security blankets. They will be responsible and accountable for their own actions.

But there again they may not kids will be kids lol

And, I would ask that your children didn't try to push their lifestyle and views, upon my children. The Christians that are "right", are the ones that really try to emulate Jesus.

Why on earth would my children push their lifestyle upon others?, I certainly don't, if someone else thinks "Hey your life looks cool a may try living like that for a while to see how it works for me" then great it's their life kick on, if you don't like it change your mind, it's an easy thing to do.

Jesus did not attempt to gain power, elevate himself, or strong-arm people into coming to believe his words. No matter what he did, Jesus made sure he stayed humble.

I've no idea what the jesusgod was doing, there is no evidence that this character was a real person let alone what he would be doing.
You nor I weren't around at the time of his alleged existence, to make statements like "he did this or meant that" is an assumption you have made, based on how you interpret some texts which have been regularly edited changed and manipulated, and opinions of other people that you accept because they fit with your belief.

But again, believe what you want to believe, I don't care but don't try to tell other people they have to believe the same or else.

By posting here, you are either trying to defend your religion or trying to get others to accept it as real and truth.

Well, logic would dictate that if your god or gods are real they should be quite able to defend themselves. So that's that out of the way.

This leaves us with you want other people to accept your beliefs as truth,. Well we just did that bit, if you live the kind of life that other people would find attractive then they will come to you, you don't need to be out there telling the world.

We have now eliminated any reason for you to post, if this would apply to all religions then there would only be the so called "Debunkers left" to post and they're hardly going to do so when there's nothing to debunk now are they?



[edit on 14-2-2009 by moocowman]

BURN IN HELL FOR AN ETERNITY....ITS OK WITH ME....WANT TO SAVE YOUR LIFE ...... WWW.HEAVENSRANGERS.COM WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO [email protected]

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by SumnerKagan

 

By posting here, you are either trying to defend your religion or trying to get others to accept it as real and truth.

We have now eliminated any reason for you to post, if this would apply to all religions then there would only be the so called "Debunkers left" to post and they're hardly going to do so when there's nothing to debunk now are they?

[edit on 14-2-2009 by moocowman]

Moocowman,

In this last post of yours, you judge SumnerKagen. You judge her intentions for posting. But in a previous post, you admit that you post just because you are pissed off. You are being judgemental. You are even making assumptions about your children and what they will choose in life etc. You clearly state that you would not want them to believe in God. And as if you are so powerful, you render God useless! WOW!

Check outside your mind...last time I looked the world was still going on, and life is not over yet. The end is not here, and we will see who is King yet!

One certain thing about life: You cannot predict, or assume all that others will do, especially your children!

And as for the gods (little g) they were and are nothing but myth and fable.

But God? You are even so sure of your beliefs that you speak of God being useless. So you believe in God, as a little g god...but equate him to being bad, and hateful. You use what you think about God and how he was supossedly "hateful" as an excuse to "hate"?

Life is being played out right on front of our eyes. I dare say the story of the world is over. I am alive as I type this, and the sun is still shining. We will see what God does still to come!

reply to post by moocowman

So why exactly would you worry about my children ?

I would worry about them for religious reasons. But, not only religious reasons.
I would worry about them because homosexuality is a difficult lifestyle.
I would worry about them because it is an unnatural state, whether you support Creationism or Darwinism. Homosexuality is a state that neither Creationism or Darwinism allows to continue genetically.
And, today, the fact that society is being forced into situations of different degrees of acceptance, sometimes forcibly, it cause a lot of negative attention to be place on gay people.
So, no, I do not think it is a sign of a person being "evil", and deserving "Hell". But, as I stated above, it is difficult, uncomfortable and confusing for these people. And whether it was my child, or somebody else's, I would worry about their feelings, safety, and comfort.

Why on earth would my children push their lifestyle upon others?, I certainly don't, if someone else thinks "Hey your life looks cool a may try living like that for a while to see how it works for me" then great it's their life kick on, if you don't like it change your mind, it's an easy thing to do.

You obviously are not familiar with the fact that certain gay rights groups have actually circulated "their" information and promoted their lifestyle with schools, including kindergarten and grade schools.
In some cases, it has permeated children's entertainment as well.
And, while I do not want to attack how they live, I do not want them deciding when or if my children are exposed to ANYTHING, let alone a lifestyle that is affected by abnormal sexuality.
So, please, at least try to be honest, and stop depicting your views and lifestyles you are protecting, as all good, and always victimized.
Every group, every culture, every religion and ever perspective is capable, and has been guilty of victimizing, going too far, and not being open to the feelings and ideals of others.

I've no idea what the jesusgod was doing, there is no evidence that this character was a real person let alone what he would be doing.
You nor I weren't around at the time of his alleged existence, to make statements like "he did this or meant that" is an assumption you have made, based on how you interpret some texts which have been regularly edited changed and manipulated, and opinions of other people that you accept because they fit with your belief.

There is plenty of evidence that Jesus was a real person. But, that is outside of this thread. As a matter of fact, if you do a search on this site, you will probably find plenty of threads relating to this argument.
I was simply stating that the texts that depict the words of Jesus, were uplifting, humble, positive and did not involve the traits that surround the negative stereotypes of Christianity.

But again, believe what you want to believe, I don't care but don't try to tell other people they have to believe the same or else.

I haven't done this, and I was trying to show that Jesus didn't do this either.

By posting here, you are either trying to defend your religion or trying to get others to accept it as real and truth.

I am not trying to defend the existence of my religion, but I am defending it from attack and unnecessary ridicule. THAT is what MY thread is about. It was the detractors, such as yourself, that began with the attacks on the acceptance and foundations of Christianity.
Personally, I’m not worried about it.

Well, logic would dictate that if your god or gods are real they should be quite able to defend themselves. So that's that out of the way.

If God did this, you and I would be discussing how terrible it is that God is forcing his will upon the world, and not letting us decide for ourselves in a neutral manner.

This leaves us with you want other people to accept your beliefs as truth,. Well we just did that bit, if you live the kind of life that other people would find attractive then they will come to you, you don't need to be out there telling the world.

Wrong again. I’m not telling the world to come into Christianity. I’m saying, lay off my way of life, stop attacking us, and if they have a problem with a specific Christian Individual, take it up with them.
We are individuals just like you.

We have now eliminated any reason for you to post, if this would apply to all religions then there would only be the so called "Debunkers left" to post and they're hardly going to do so when there's nothing to debunk now are they

Actually, YOU are a great example of my “reason” for posting.
As far as I can tell, you are angry, defensive and very worried about certain stances the Christian Church has taken on certain lifestyles. And, you are using every stereotypical negative you can dig up, in order to justify your words and actions.
And, you know what? You don’t have to. If you honestly believe that you are not attacking, debunking or undermining Christianity, why are you here defending yourself? Why did the thread catch your eye?
Why are YOU here?

reply to post by burntheships

In this last post of yours, you judge SumnerKagen. You judge her intentions for posting. But in a previous post, you admit that you post just because you are pissed off.

If you choose to believe that I'm judging the other poster then so be it, I'm judging no one my friend, and yes I get pissed off at religions waving their magic fingers at the secular world trying to dictate how others should live.
And before you go off on one (if your the type to do that) yes I do tar most xtians with the same brush. I don't care what flavour the xtian is or which are the real xtians.
Whether the delusion is fairies, jesusgods or unicorns you have every right to believe what you wish, just don't insist your unicorn gets to crap on my lawn.

You are being judgemental. You are even making assumptions about your children and what they will choose in life etc. You clearly state that you would not want them to believe in God. And as if you are so powerful, you render God useless! WOW!

I do not want my children not to believe in a god, I have quite CLEARLY stated that my children will be allowed to make their own choices, and their choices hopefully will be made with critical thinking skills.
I also made it quite clear that at a certain age "Kids will do what the hell they like"

How is it possible for a mere mortal to render a god useless may I ask? Wow indeed, do you render your god so powerless that it could not communicate with my children directly.

Check outside your mind...last time I looked the world was still going on, and life is not over yet. The end is not here, and we will see who is King yet!

You know my friend the last time I heard a rant like that it was from a skinhead at a soccer match, another great religion.

One certain thing about life: You cannot predict, or assume all that others will do, especially your children!

Sorry big boy, on the subject of religion my kids are quite predictable, when it comes to anything supernatural they require solid evidence. They fully understand the meaning of delusion and that faith is a belief in something improbable without the requirement of evidence.

As my children are but 11 and 12, they've a long way to go in life but there's plenty of time for the jesusgod to visit them, my chimney is always open.

And as for the gods (little g) they were and are nothing but myth and fable. But God? You are even so sure of your beliefs that you speak of God being useless.

What the hell are you rattling on about here dude, I have no belief in any god. If I was born in Iran I would probably believe in Allah. If I was born in ancient Greece i would have believed in zeus, If I was born in Israel I would probably believe in the yahwe god.

You use what you think about God and how he was supossedly "hateful" as an excuse to "hate"?

Dude, I'll type this really slow just so you'll get it.
I
Do
Not
Hate
Anyone

If the Ywhwehjesusgod is as alleged the creator of everything that there is, was or ever will be, then this god would be the creator of hate, given that this alleged superbeing is claimed to hate things like homosexuality and adultery, which as the creator it would have created then clearly the creator of everything created something which it paradoxically hates.

I
Do
Not
Use
This
As
an Excuse
To Hate
I merely use your language

I am alive as I type this, and the sun is still shining.

Now there's a surprise, there's me thinking you were an angel sent try an clarify things a little. Grow up

Reply to moocowman

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by burntheships

 

You missed two litlle words but they were crucial

AS IF

[edit on 14-2-2009 by burntheships]

[edit on 14-2-2009 by burntheships]

[edit on 14-2-2009 by burntheships]