What is with all the "Christianity-Debunking" attempt threads?

reply to post by Hellish-D


Y am I X?

In the world of man and woman, 1 + 1 does = 3.

No man has walked in my shoes nor can another man speak for what I have seen. To hear what I have heard, and to see what I have seen, may make you talk a different talk.

Your post is outside my experience.

Peace


[edit on 8-2-2009 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by HIFIGUY


Your claim of '1 billion people can't be wrong' is a fallacy. As are the rest of your points, just not the same type.

I've had this same debate over and over and over with dozens of people. I'm bored with it. What I will do is call out fallacies as I see them in the hopes of forcing the faithful to be more diligent in their arguments.

reply to post by HIFIGUY


None of that has anything to do with the argument at hand.

1) Is God omnipotent (all powerful)? Christian answer: Yes
2) Is God omniscient (all knowing)? Christians answer: Yes
3) Did God create the universe? Christian answer: Yes


That is all that is needed to make a conclusion.
Everything works on a bases of cause/reaction.
You pull the trigger and the gun fires, but what is it that makes you guilty? The fact that you knew the reaction before you caused it - you knew what would happen once you pulled the trigger, and yet you did it just the same.

God created Satan, knowing what he would become.
He knew the result before he created him.
He is responsible, because he pulled the trigger.
This works for every single human, from Adam to our generation.
It makes him directly responsible for everything, because he created us this way and knew exactly what would happen - all the reactions to the cause.


If you are the typical Christian and you believe the first 3 clauses I outlined, then you can not tell me that God couldn't have made a world in which evil does not exist (Satan, demons, ect).
He's all powerful. He can do whatever he wants.
Believing in the above means that your God created some people to be flawed and damned in Hell, because he knew what they would become before he even created the universe, and he knew what the domino effect he set in place would result in - because time is irrelevant when you are "all knowing".


Yes, Christianity has been debunked. God has not been debunked, but the beliefs of Christianity have been, because they don't work.


God can not be:
1) All knowing
2) All powerful
3) Righteous

once you add Hell into the mix. Because he's responsible for everything. This makes judgement pointless and redundant.
Surely your "all knowing" God would know that.

Originally posted by TruthParadox
So what about if a person doesn't believe there is enough reason or evidence to believe in God - no more than Zeus (for example)?
Is that hypocritical or evil?
Is it worthy of Hell?

NO! You do not need to actually believe in that kind of stuff.

It's just that a simple rule/law of the universe is that you will reap what you sow. So, if you do bad things, you get bad things returned to you in the world. If you do good things, then good things get returned back to you. Just so long as you aren't a hypocrite and think you are doing good when your actions are actually bad(such as my example before).

Now then, imagine how people would need to act in a peaceful and free society. Not what laws need to be in place, and not a 1 structure belief system in place where everyone is completely alike. How would people need to treat each other? You be in a society that didn't judge others, live and let live and so on. Now you just need to be the change you want to see. If you be that change, then you will likely find yourself walking the path of Jesus. This is simply to believe for the very works sake. Meaning, you can follow and do what Jesus says because you can see how such is needed in a peaceful society.

This is supposed to be a minimum someone can do, so it should be something all Christians should do, but many do not. This is why Jesus says so many times those who truly believe will do as he says. I have friends who aren't Christian and they act in such a way for the most part, I often tell them they are more Christian than Christians. Understanding the above and following that is the most important thing.

Also, the example is the life of Jesus, not the church or what people do in his name. So don't associate doing what he says with going to church and being ignorant, it is nothing at all like that. Quite the opposite.

If you can see how a society full of people who act as Jesus did is the only chance at a peaceful society, then you can believe for the very works sake and that is enough. Because it is your actions and such that matter most.

The only hypocricy I see there is in a God who claims to be loving and yet tortures his creation even while knowing perfectly well that there really isn't any concrete evidence for any religious belief.

Well, I certainly don't believe God is a hypocrite. Which leaves 1 other option. People lied. Most of that stuff they say about the Christian religion is marketing. "Free gift" is like watching an infomercial.

Hypocricy, maybe. But evil?
Evil is just an opinion.
My opinion is that a person should not cause harm to another person.
That's the code I live by, and in that respect, I commit no evil.
We all have our faults, but "evil" is merely a measuring stick we use to size ourselves up against others and to set a standard.
What's considered "evil" in one person's eyes may not be "evil" in another's.

Evil is certainly not an opinion. However, those who are evil will only see the other persons evil, and then among 2 evils it becomes opinion.

The code you live by is pretty much the path of Jesus. And so you can obviously believe for the very works sake. It may be hard to imagine a god, or such. But understanding the path of Jesus is just common sense for you obviously.

If you separate Jesus and what he taught from the way the church teaches it and so on, then you will see that Jesus is not the bad guy at all, and that what the church does is not what he taught.

reply to post by Hellish-D


I don't believe because Jack and Jill down the street do. I believe because the word of God resounds with my soul. It's extremely personal to accept Jesus Christ, if you actually do. These same arguments I have had with others when I was a non believer, believe me but it's definitely personal, not because of large majority. And I honestly believe that if I grew up anywhere else and some other religion could be a majority I would have still found Christ.

reply to post by Hellish-D


Well now, you dont know what Ive seen, or heard what Ive heard.

Walk in my shoes brother before you comment on my experience.

Until then, your spouting merely your own opinion about me, and Im stating a fact about your speaking on my behalf.

Peace

[edit on 8-2-2009 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by HIFIGUY


I'm not speaking on your behalf. You said something to the effect of "1 billion people can't be wrong" at the end of your post. I stated it was a logical fallacy. Simple as that.

If you have personal experience that can apply to the argument, then by all means present it. If you're using faulty logic or drawing false conclusions based on the evidence provided, then I will point it out.

reply to post by Boogley


Congrats, but that's not a logical thing. All debunking comes from a logical standpoint.

reply to post by Hellish-D


Did I use the word " Cant " be wrong?

I merely presented that the hundreds of year old Christianity debunked arguement is full of air based on a continual increase in believers and those who have found the way.

Secondly, and foremost, my direct and personal interaction and witness to God himself, is testimony enough for me. To each who receives, the gift is unique.

Sometimes, that which is obvious to one, is invisible to the other.

Take a look..

www.magiceye3ds.com...

Peace


[edit on 8-2-2009 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by VelmaLu
First you said there was plenty of oil, now you're claiming that oil on a distant moon is some far off locale of the solar system is a viable alternative to our peak oil problems on this planet? You honestly believe this is the answer? This was the fruit of your investigation and research?

Oh my, you are delusional. Hey, how about the free energy being distributed on Arcturus? What about harnessing the power of the black hole at the center of our galaxy?

I just said oil isn't as limited as they once thought. I told you before middle of this topic is hardly the place for a discussion for the topic of oil.

And you wonder why I think you're illogical and irrational?

Perhaps your invisible friend can zap those hydrocarbons to Earth!

Well, I could say I wonder why you need to put in so many insults and distort what I say to some extreme to make a point, but I honestly already know why.

I prefer the more reasonable approach which is to immediately end this religious push to create more people, to stop blocking attempts at birth control and to allow for abortion.

Yes, because what the world certainly needs is another crusade based on people beliefs. As I said before, you are no different than Christians. All worried about shaping the world to your beliefs. Not happy with the 1 life you've actually been given control of.

Yes, you've displayed a stunning lack of knowledge on the subject. But please, let me know when you figure out the planet uses over 100 million barrels of oil every day and with our current technology, it would take about 16 years to go to Titan and back. Then there is that pesky problem of extracting and storing the hydrocarbons. Brilliant solution your deep scholarly research has led you to. . . .

Did it not occur to you that if so much oil and such was found on Titan that it means that obviously Oil and such isn't actually a fossil fuel and that oil isn't actually made as once thought?

Looks to me like you are just looking for ways to call me ignorant because my beliefs are different than yours.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
reply to post by Hellish-D

 

I merely presented that the hundreds of year old Christianity debunked arguement is full of air based on a continual increase in believers and those who have found the way.

So, because people still believe 1+1=3, despite the evidence, the claim holds merit?

Secondly, and foremost,

I like that

my direct and personal interaction and witness to God himself, is testimony enough for me. To each who receives, the gift is unique.

Peace

uh huh...
well, good luck to you. Like I said, when I see a logical fallacy I'll point it out. Past that, I'm tired of the same debate over and over.

Originally posted by Hellish-D
reply to post by Boogley

 

Congrats, but that's not a logical thing. All debunking comes from a logical standpoint.

Mmmmmm but it's only your belief that it is illogical. I find God and religion to be very logical.

Originally posted by Boogley
reply to post by Horza

 

I guess you could debunk it if you viewed it as that way. In the case that you do then good luck. You may find all of your "evidence" and you may not. Does it bother you so much that someone finds happiness in it?

Never and not at all ... I didn't say anything about the good or the bad things about organised religion and I am certainly not ever going to argue with some ones personal faith

A human has the ability and therefore the right to believe in anything they want and I will never tell someone to believe a certain thing ... which is exactly what organised religion does ... "Believe or else!!!"

Originally posted by Boogley
If it's so unfathomable to understand why someone could believe in a God, then why do so many people spend SO MUCH of their time trying to disprove it? Why not spend your time doing what you believe to be productive in the world. But you see this as productive right? So it all ties down beliefs. You believe tectonic plates move against each other eventually resulting in a volcano right? I believe God moves the plates and the result is a volcano, essentially making the volcano erupt. How can you disprove that?

For an individual to come to the belief that a deity makes, moves and controls the universe is totally understandable to me.

I understand how but I don't understand why ... which is why I am not a religious person.

What I find unfathomable is all the atrocities that have been and continue to be perpetrated in the name of religion.

These acts of violence go a long way to answering question in the OP

reply to post by Boogley


Logic is logic, it has nothing to do with belief.

Originally posted by Hellish-D
uh huh...
well, good luck to you. Like I said, when I see a logical fallacy I'll point it out. Past that, I'm tired of the same debate over and over.

Not everything is at is appears bro.

www.magiceye3ds.com...

Can you see the bouquet?

Peace

[edit on 8-2-2009 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by HIFIGUY


Are you using a magic eye to prove God exists?

I gotta say, I've never heard that one before. you just made my night

reply to post by badmedia


I think that Jesus is a good guy, if he ever existed .
My 'beef' is not with him, just the people who are somehow ok with the thought that uncle Bob is going to be tortured for eternity just because he's a realist.
Seriously, think about it. That's really pretty sick once you get down to it.

One of the main reasons I argue against Christianity is because of the belief in Hell. I believe it's not mentaly healthy to be brainwashed into thinking it's ok that someone who doesn't believe in the extraordinary will be tortured forever.

Originally posted by Hellish-D
reply to post by HIFIGUY

 

Are you using a magic eye to prove God exists?

I gotta say, I've never heard that one before. you just made my night

No..to refresh your memory, I thought you were done debating the same old issue.

And secondly, the simple analogy that two people can look at the same thing and see 2 different perspectives.

Jesus used parrables alot and when asked why he did...he answered:

Matthew
That's why I speak to them in parables, because 'they look but don't see, and they listen but don't hear or understand.'

Peace


[edit on 8-2-2009 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by VelmaLu
That's because when talking about religion, the introduction of logic causes big problems. It's like they don't use that portion of their brain, and if you ask such questions, you're being "critical" or my favorite, "persecuting" them.

God already knows the choices we will make, so we cannot change the path we're on. In order for Jesus to have been born to Mary, God had to have known how she would choose long before she was even born.

Therefore, we're merely living out a drama and rehearsed roles that God has written and determined. Evil, sins, wrong thoughts, murder -- all of it, is the result of God.

Further, God must have wanted abortion. If God did not want abortion, God would not have created the ability to abort babies. Assuming God is all-powerful, God could have prevented babies from being aborted. Therefore, it is God's will that some babies be aborted.

Don't even get me started on the obvious flaws in the Genesis myth. . .

I'm your huckleberry. I'm a programmer and make my living based on logic. In fact, a big part of what lead my to my beliefs was a dream I once had of creating intelligence. Not AI, but real intelligence. I found many truths in doing this and was faced with my philosophical problems.

So if you think you are more logical or intelligent than I am, lets have at it. I'll start based on a previous post of mine.

Here are some posts, all based on logic about the true nature of the universe.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is a post about AI.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Sorry, but I am all about breaking such stereotypes. They aren't true. I do not rely on blind faith. It is all based on logic and actual understandings, not just blind faith.

No longer commenting on the subject, no reason. Will it not stop until one world religion?

[edit on 8-2-2009 by TNT13]