Political Correctness and Free Speech

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


This is not about disagreeing. I have stated in this tread that I have been hurt by words, and I am not the only one. If you are capable of using just a tiny bit of logic, that means that words actually CAN hurt. You even admitted it yourself, that words can hurt a child.

So you contiunue to defend some theory that you yourself know is flawed. Good luck with all of that, and now I leave this thread to find something that is actually worthwhile to read.

Myself and probably 99.9% of the ATS population abhor the political correctness that suffocates free-speech.

What was once-upon-a-time something most folks called "social ettiquite" has been legislated (policed) into the abomination society is now wrestling with.

People are guilty as hell of treating others like crap.....lawsuits ad nauseum get filed until some politician looks to gain reelection by making our freedoms to abuse others a political platform...vis a vis: It's not polite to talk that way= Political correctness mandated by the gub'ment.

If we could've remained a polite society then the power mongers wouldn't have had a leg to stand on over "words" and their use.

we are supposed to be denying ignorance on here... that is why I'm shocked that you are still here?
Words do hurt...it IS a fact.... you are unwilling to accept anyone elses ideas or accept the FACT that they do.... just ridiculous?And you want to be able to say bigoted crap.... that IS ignorant.


Bye

reply to post by ziggystar60


No, your own ignorance has "hurt" you. The child's ignorance has "hurt" them. It's not even really that you or the child has been hurt by the words themselves but the "power" that YOU are giving them.

Essentially, you're hurting yourself.

This is about disagreeing. I disagree with your point. You disagree with mine.

reply to post by blupblup


"Bigoted crap" is a subjective term. Anyone can argue that any statement is "bigoted" because the term is subject to the opinions of each individual. Your "facts" have never been proven, and you refuse to prove anything.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by TasteTheMagick

 

it matters to me - I'd like to hear your answers

but answering them is up to you

peoples minds and emotions can never be hurt by words?

or is it that peoples minds and emotions matter to you not at all - you place no value on these things - the only way anyone can ever be hurt is physically?

Telling a small child that they are stupid or useless would propably dent their self esteem,and cause emotional distress and is considered abuse.However in the context of this thread,where you are dealing with mature adults,words should be just words. Do you think that it is a complete suprise to an African American to discover that they are indeed black? Or does it suprise a Japaneese American when someone refers to them as oriental? These are generalized references to encompass origon.
As I stated in an earlier post about the person who was third generation African,that has immigrated to this country.He is as much African American as any African American.What does his skin color have to do with his area of origon?
Take off the rose colored glasses.Words only carry the impact you allow them.
and also:

if words are so inconsequential - why all the fuss? how dangerous could it really be to lose the right to use something that has absolutely no meaning - no influence - no impact whatsoever?

Exactly!! Words are inconsequential.There should be no fuss. No one should lose the freedom of speech just to placate someone elses utopian ideals.What gives the socioliberal adgenda for political correctness the right to dictate any persons right to free speech?
As far as influence and impact a word or phrase has on someone,that is guaged individually.
The PC movement is nothing more than a ploy to make people feel better about themselves at the expense of everyone else.We have to change the way we speak just to accomodate them.If it were a situation where there were a few people out there that had six fingers on their hands.Political correctness would dictate that we all grow six fingers,as not to single them out.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by Mynaeris

 

Oh that's ridiculous...I've used the word "fetch"...and not when I'm talking to a dog either. People can be so dumb sometimes, it's almost scary.

itinerantseeker:

There was something on the news a while back that your post reminded me of. There was some event in France and there were two black guys involved. The woman on the news was too embarrassed to call them black and so she called them "African-American"...they were from France.

That is funny. A few years ago, I had this warehouse job and we had a couple of guys from Nigeria working in the same area I did. There was a similar discussion turned arguement on this topic during lunch. Some the blacks were were saying, "we aren't black, we are African-Americans" and it was all back and forth for a while. Saying that black is the same as being called colored and it's a racist term, the whites were saying "hey were called white, but my parents are polish, so shouldn't I be called polish american?"

There was even a couple of older black guys that got into the discussion and they are trying to correct the younger ones that colored wasn't racist, that was just the term from back in the day, it's no big deal and that there's nothing wrong with being labeled as black. Meanwhile, the Nigerian guys were just shaking their heads, just laughing to themselves at the stupidity of the arguement. Finally, the one girl goes by the Nigerians and goes, "hey you guys prefer being called African-Americans right, you know, since you are actually from Africa and all?" One of the guys just shrugged and said "actually, since I'm from Nigeria, I'd rather be called Nigerian and I'm not American, so that African-American bulls**t doesn't apply to me. Where in "Africa" you from?" No answer, just a dirty look. Everybody laughed, and the conversation became much more relaxed after that. But still, the obsession over labels just gets silly.

the one thing ive noticed is that no matter what you call people some are going to be offended.. i have a gay friend, who me and my other friends all know is gay and he doesnt get botherd by it.. but i see some dude at the mall and i visually see him kiss another dude and my friend says oh look there are more gay people in the world.. and they got all offended... guess freedom of speech only exists if you have no morals or standards for what comes out their mouth. same with "black" "oriental" "white" "mexican" does it really matter? they are people just the same. my uncle is black and im white (dont ask long story) but we just call him tim. dont think color really matters or race or anything, but call it like you will.. i know i didnt make any sense in that whole thing but guess thats how i am. freedom of speech is what i believe in. and it shows in how i speak every day

reply to post by ziggystar60


I'll respond to this. I'll tell you what my parents, grandparents would say if we were hurt and started crying when they "verbally abused" us, they would say "oh does what i say hurt you? really, i'll give you something that'll really hurt and make you cry!" I do agree that words do hurt, but the reason they hurt is because people have let them hurt. Throughout most of my life, I used to let things get to me. I would take everything so seriously and would take anything I would consider offensive to heart and often responded physically.

One day, after the SHTF in my life, I just got a little more clear on things. My whole perspective on life changed, I realized that there are bigger things to lose and worse ways to get hurt by than words. Now I just laugh or shrug off what insults people tell, sometimes words get to me every once in a while, but it passes. I hold nothing back myself, but still just try to be considerate of others without feeling I have to walk on egg shells. I'm wondering if that's what the OP is trying to get at with her arguement, that people should not let words get to them, but because they are just words, but that's just how I'm interpreting it. The arguement going on here made me immediately think of the Looney Tunes. When a character would insult the other with insults, they would reply with "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." I know little cheesy but I was waiting for someone in this thread to say it. But it is true, words have become knives instead of being just words.

[edit on 1-2-2009 by itinerantseeker]

Words can hurt but only if you allow them to ... remember the ole sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. That has begun to ring true with me. Call me what you want to, I don't care! I'm a good ole hard-headed nonconformist and always have been. I hate this political correctness garbage ... oxymoron this political correctness, huh? Freedom of speech will always be our right. Our Constitution gave us these rights and no one will take them away from us!

I'm a Swedish-Choctaw American ... no, I'm an American!

The PC speak is over the top, no question.




Everything must be taken in context and very little in this thread has been, and ironically, semantics were used to perfect effect by a couple of posters.


The OP's opening point is perfectly valid and I suspect most all on here can agree with the simple premise that the entire 'express yourself our way, not your way' mentality is culturally damaging and confusing by deliberation.

Yes, obviously,words can hurt, and they certainly have power, they are the lifeblood of human communication. And yet, as any school child knows, they can be rendered meaningless and worthless.

Words,then, cant 'hurt' if you dont recognize the words or terms to begin with and therein lies the true point, the true problem.

Confuse the language, confuse the people.

Confuse the OP, confuse the topic.

reply to post by TasteTheMagick

morning Magick

we'll agree to disagree then :-)

but first -

...Personally, my anger with the PC attitude of things fully blossomed while I was in high school.

I had just moved in the middle of my freshman year and the new school had a slogan for the year. That year it was: Where Everyone Belongs.

Now, this school is NOT where everyone belongs. It likes to enforce the forming of cliques and gives some cliques higher status than others. You're allowed to wear a cross, but you're not allowed to wear anything that shows you believe in any other religion. There was a lot more, but I won't pad this post.

Now, after being harassed a lot by the staff and stuff like that, I wrote a blog entry on myspace about how the slogan "where everyone belongs" didn't really apply.

It was an essay type thing, I didn't swear, I didn't make any kind of attacks. It was on my personal myspace page.

They tried to expel me, didn't work, but they tried.

this is why I don't want to agree to disagree

this is one of the first posts of yours that I read in this thread

you're what - 18?

holy crap!

this is an amazing thing - and it deserves some recognition

there are very few adults - with much more life experience than you had at that point - that would step up like that - and deal with the consequences

that's why this:

What is the problem if you find someone elses stressful situation funny? Does it really matter? Is it really going to cause a problem if I find someone elses stupidity funny? I'm not going to baby someone just because they might be embarrassed.

does not sound like it could possibly come from the person we're reading about above

also - based on the argument you made when confronting your school with what you saw as reality - I do not believe that you believe that words do not or cannot hurt - you contradict yourself

it's why when you say that those squeaking and squawking sounds we make when we speak are meaningless - I don't believe you - you don't even believe you

it's a silly argument and your smarter than that - you've already proven that several times over

so - just in case you don't see what I'm going for here - I'm going to say it again

words can hurt - they are not just noise

admitting that words hurt is not in any way going to take away from an argument against enforced PC speech - it's not going to damage the good fight to protect our right to free speech

even the ACLU has on occasion been happy to support several bits of legislation that make it possible to address the problems with Hate Speech without having to touch our right to free speech - allowing that words have power and can cause damage is not going to hurt your argument (which is correct) - it's not going to hurt the fight to protect our rights

our not being able to fight about it - and work it out in the courts - is what's going to threaten it the most

don't fight for points that aren't workable when your argument is already sound

what I'm about to say is going to be both arrogant and condescending - just so you're prepared :-)

you're a strong person - you can do a lot of good in this world

I'd like to see you use your powers for good instead of evil :-)

don't punish or dismiss people for not being as tough as you are - there will always be people who aren't as tough as you are - fact is - they need people like you

and whether you can see it or not - they can help you in ways that you might not see right now

if you believe in what your saying - in what you're fighting for - don't allow nonsense to be your sticking point

[edit on 2/2/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

Ok, sorry I didn't answer you sooner Spiramirabilis. I had a cold for over a week. Haven't really been online.

This is the one problem I have with your post...it's only one: I don't believe that words hurt. I never will. It's not the words that have the problem, it's the intent of the person behind those words. It's in the WAY a person says a word. Not the word itself.

It's the manner in which someone calls a name that causes hurt feelings. Not really the name.

Plus, I never said that words had no MEANING. I said that words did not have little razor blade attached TO those meanings to cause pain. I understand that there are a lot of people that CAN find words hurtful. But those people have given those words that power, they are really the one's behind their own pain.

All I'm really saying is that it's gotten out of hand. My entire problem with all of it is that people aren't just questioning the meaning of words, but they are attaching a bunch of unnecessary evils to the words themselves.

Words, just words, can't do any harm. A person may think on those words, mull them over a hundred times, be upset that the words were said, but the words have not actually done any harm.

I don't believe that words hurt.
I don't believe that there are any bad words.
I will always believe that anyone should be able to use any words they like.

I think the brunt of the confusion and argument here has stemmed from people mixing up bad actions WITH words being used by people behaving in a harmful way. There's a big difference in those two things.

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


hey!

hope you're feeling better -

I'd have to be dead before they could pry my mouse from my hands

though I do have a saying - don't work delirious - learned that the hard way

so - you know what I think? It's just semantics most of the time

you don't think words hurt - I do

but we're both talking about the same thing - intent - just coming at it from different angles

I think some of us are more literal than others - and language works differently for each of us - it's a wonder the monkeys can communicate at all

now you're back - you can check out the "Issue of Hate Speech" - if you haven't already

you can't miss it - top of the page

sorry you missed it - it's never ending - apparently

also - as irritating as it was, I meant what I said (last post)

I always love it when people make a point of saying what they really feel needs to be said - consequences be damned

and I love that we can all fight about it afterward

[edit on 2/10/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


I read some of that "issue of hate speech"...honestly I considered a great deal of it to be nonsense. I don't think there's much of a difference either way, however, I can see where the rule is coming from because that kind of think can pork up a forum insanely fast. After that, there isn't really discussion anymore, just mindless arguing over nothing.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but I come too this forum by choice and the staff can make whatever rules they like. My choice to come here is my acceptance of following their rules while I am here.

When I'm in public in my every day life, I'll say what I like. Everyone should and it would be incredibly boring around the world if we were all thinking and saying the same things.

We all speak a different way, some of us cryptically, some of us in metaphor, some literally. It's part of what makes language a truly beautiful and fascinating thing.

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


hey Magick -

I'm so tired I'm almost dead - but, since I'm up...

:-)

however, I can see where the rule is coming from because that kind of think can pork up a forum insanely fast. After that, there isn't really discussion anymore, just mindless arguing over nothing.

yeah - but, sometimes it's fun to watch a perfectly good discussion devolve into nothing

I don't necessarily agree with it, but I come too this forum by choice and the staff can make whatever rules they like. My choice to come here is my acceptance of following their rules while I am here.

it's a private club - they get to make up the house rules

so, me too - I can play by the rules - I like hanging out here

When I'm in public in my every day life, I'll say what I like.

I have my moments :-)

I figure - someone will smack me if it gets out of hand - this is how we maintain a civilization - we smack each other when we get out of hand

...We all speak a different way, some of us cryptically, some of us in metaphor, some literally. It's part of what makes language a truly beautiful and fascinating thing.

nice...

I do love language

Originally posted by daddyroo45
This country's citizens have been made to suffer intolerable political tolerance. In the socioliberal environment we have had to endure there is no room for free thought.Socioliberalism is a one size fits all delusion where we are all supposed to be cookie cutter citizens. Act the same get paid the same and speak the same.

Socioliberals need to get a life and stop worrying about what everyone else is doing.

Oh get off it pal... socioconservatives are the ones who worry about

men burying bananas in other men, blasphemy, unpatriotic talk, going to church...

In fact it is sort of retarded that you use the word liberal to describe a rigid mentality.

LIBERAL-
obsolete : lacking moral restraint : licentious
not literal or strict : loose
broad-minded ; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional
forms

So ya, you can say what you want...

doesn't mean its intelligent.

BURN ADAM AND STEVE! dang librals

Sorry first time writing here. The problem with this thread is the reply posts. While it is true that words hurt, I can attest to that in ways you cannot imagine, the intent of the OP was to point out that PC is basically about words that DO NOT hurt but are used to control us. I am talking about real life. If a man lies and falsify's a legal document and it is more important to NOT call him a lier because it is not PC. we have a problem. We have a problem. The constant changing of the PC words is BS! A poster on here is more interested in semantics and patting himself on the back than dealing with the problem. The OP is dealing with REAL life, not a theory. If you wish to play with semantics try me. I am tired of idiots more concerned with patting themselves on the back than dealing with problems. Start dealing with LIFE instead of theory's. You prove the man's point by your games with semantics rather than discussing his REAL worry about a REAL problem.