Holocaust Statistics Only Please

I AM CALLING OUT FOR ANY AND ALL SOURCES REGARDING SIMPLE HOLOCAUST ISSUES.

please refrain from opinion oriented posts as this is meant to be simply a means of establishing a sort of database of the facts to be used in other threads.

My interest in this came about as i read a recent news article in the NewYorkTimes in which a Bishop of the Catholic Church was labeled a Holocaust Denier. I read the bishops exact quote and he stated explicitly that he thought the number of deceased were two high.

Which begs the question, why is it if you QUESTION the holocaust, that makes you a DENIER.

Now reading all the threads on the holocaust, i see the holocaust believers assume anyone that questions is a Jew Hater.

I am not this. I am a journalism major in my 4th year. Am friends of Jews, Whites, Blacks and am myself Native American.

Now with this I will give my background of knowledge regarding national socialists. I have read Mein Kampf. I have seen about every documentary on Eichmann, Himmler, Hitler, the Nazi Party, Mengele...etc.

DRUM ROLL.....ba da da da da da da da ....

1. numbers....i want to see death tolls of EVERY race from EVERY source. I want to compare, since they are all different, and look at the author of each to see any potential motive to fudge the numbers, e.g. make higher or lower. I think it goes without saying, a lower figure from a Jewish Scholar takes more precendence than a lower figure from a skinhead and vice versa for higher figures.

2. Ways of Death. How many shot vs. gassed & burned vs starved vs disease etc...

3. in burning, how many bodies burned and how much fuel would it take?

4. Is there physical evidence of Gassing? E.G. molecules still on the walls of the famed gas chambers...etc.


In my mind and most i know the word holocaust stirrs up notions of jewish deaths at the hands of the Nazis, but it is my understanding that many Poles, Slavs, Russians, political dissenters etc were all murdered, why is the holocaust is specifically attributed to the Jews in the eyes of the world.

I really do not know about 2,3,4 - but i always use as an example information from 1.
Polish census 1931 - 3.1 million Jews, 21.8 million Poles ,7 million others.
Now part (smaller) of Poland went to USSR in 1939, so let us assume that half of Jews went there and only half remained in Nazi controlled part.No growth of Jews too - just for assumption. 1.5 million Jews in parts of Poland under Nazi control.
After war - 240000. So population dropped by 500 percent (and it is compared to 1.5 million - correct number should be bigger). While Poles who where heavily oppressed, persecuted, ethnically cleansed in some areas and suffered horribly from both Nazis and Communists lost 3 million. One seventh of total population (if also no growth is considered,with growth percentage is even smaller) - or 14 percent. Kind of huge difference.
So counting molecules on the wall is good and scientific and totally ok, but still will not answer why there was such a difference in losses of the populations suffering of similar (supposedly) conditions in the same country, that differ only in ethnic parameters.

Do your own research. I don't think anyone will do it for you simply because you demand it.

I doubt if anyone will ever be able to give you the excact number of victims of Holocaust, but I have found a good site which operates with both low and high estimates of deaths, and I think it may be a good place to start if you want to know more about this very sad chapter in our history.



At the site you can also get more detailed information about the different death camps, like Auschwitz-Birkenau:

Auschwitz-Birkenau became the killing centre where the largest numbers of European Jews were killed. By mid 1942, mass gassing of Jews using Zyklon-B began at Auschwitz, where extermination was conducted on an industrial scale with some estimates running as high as three million persons eventually killed through gassing, starvation, disease, shooting, and burning. 9 out of 10 were Jews. In addition, Gypsies, Soviet POWs, and prisoners of all nationalities died in the gas chambers.

Auschwitz was established by order of SS Reichführer Heinrich Himmler on 27 April 1940

Go to this site to learn more:
www.deathcamps.info...

reply to post by ziggystar60



Since people sent to camps were tatooed with numbers on their arms, it is obvious that records must have been kept.

Numbers and names of people should be easily tracked.

It would then be clear to everybody, if access to these records were grantes or go public. It would close the case once and for all.

The Jewish world population in 1900 was approx. 11million (pre-holocaust)
The Jewish world population in 1950 was approx. 11million (post-holocaust)

The number of Jews in Europe went down by the millions. However the number of Jews in the U.S and Israel went up by the millions.

The population did not dissapear. They simply shifted to other parts of the world.

Logically speaking, if 6 million Jews died, the population of Jews in 1950 should have been 5 million. Not 11million.

edit to add:
A descrepancy in population numbers could also have been as a result of the Holodomor famine in which millions died of starvation, typhoid and other diseases this happened in the early 1930's before the Holocaust. You'll notice that there are black and white pictures of mass graves from this period also.


[edit on 30-1-2009 by Obliterated]

minimum 1.5-2 million jews dead , max estimate 3-4 million

reply to post by Obliterated


Yes, great logic. So if world population in 1900 was ,say, 4 billion people - now there should be also 4 billion. No natural growth and stuff according to your logic. Please, check statistics for population of your country in 1900 and in 1950. If it remained the same in the same borders - apply for Nobel prize at once.
So what are another 3 billion ? Aliens?

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by Obliterated

 

Yes, great logic. So if world population in 1900 was ,say, 4 billion people - now there should be also 4 billion. No natural growth and stuff according to your logic. Please, check statistics for population of your country in 1900 and in 1950. If it remained the same in the same borders - apply for Nobel prize at once.
So what are another 3 billion ? Aliens?

Well, I live in Australia so a rapid growth usually takes into account immigration of people from other places. Jews are not a country so their number doesn't grow through migration.

There is both deaths and births that need to be considered. Generally speaking a population of people can't double it's numbers in such a short period of time. For example, 60 years later, there are about 14million Jews. Not 22 million. We now live in a time where life expectancy is greater and living conditions have improved so the deaths are much less

If it takes 60 years for 11million to increase by 4million... then in 60 years 5million would have only increased to 6.2million. not 11million.

[edit on 30-1-2009 by Obliterated]

reply to post by Obliterated


If according to you in 1900 there were 11 million Jews, then in 1939 population should be larger (like 17 million as is accepted). So i fail to understand following:

then in 60 years 5million would have only increased to 6.2million

Nobody claims that after WW2 only 5 million Jews remained.
As for other "statistics" i would like to show an example of population change, growth change - while borders remain the same.
Switzerland:
1900 - 3,315,443.
www.1911encyclopedia.org...
1939 - 4,066,400
en.wikipedia.org...
2008 - 7,581,520
encarta.msn.com...
See - growth rate changes with time. In Switzerland population grew slower between 1900-1939 and faster between 1939-2008. Natural growth and immigration are the main reasons. I showed it since this was a country that WW2 spared.
So as you can see there is no justification for assuming that population growth is the same for given population at all periods.

reply to post by danielfochtman


go here It answers all your questionsUS HMM[

Here is one of the interesting videos gives you insight into the leaders of the camp. Its really scary when you realize they were seemingly normal people.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Ok i have since gone deeper into it. You got me questioning it so this is what i came up with....

These are Jewish population figures from 1882 -2008.

Year: Population Increase by in Period of time
1882 7,800,000
1900 10,600,000 2,800,000 18 years
1914 13,500,000 2,900,000 14 years
1922 14,400,000 900,000 6 years
1925 14,800,000 400,000 3years
1939 16,728,000 1,928,000 14 years

Total population increase in 43 years 8,928,000

1948 11,500,000 -5,228,000 9 years years


1955 11,800,000 300,000 7 years
1970 12,630,000 830,000 15 years
1980 12,840,000 210,000 10 years
1990 12,870,000 30,000 10 years
2000 13,191,500 321,500 10 years
2008 13,300,000 108,500 8 years
Total population increase in 40 years 1,800,000

This is without including the -5,228,000


The population has only increased by 1.8mil in the past 40 years.... How did they go up by 9million in the 40 years prior?

If they started at 10million in 1900 at the rate they've been growing in the last 40 years they should have the same population as now.

1900= 10,600,000 + 1.8million over 40 years = 12,400,000
2008= 12,400,000 + 1.8million over 40 years = 14,200,000

The figure should be less for the first 40 years because the starting population is less which means their growth rate would be smaller. So 13-14million is what the population number should be

[edit on 30-1-2009 by Obliterated]
Here's where i got the data from www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

[edit on 30-1-2009 by Obliterated]

I didn't count for 30 years but the 1million extra in my end figure still accounts for those 30 years. I just realised i didn't add it in.

Just so you know, I do believe the Holocaust happened. I just think the numbers given were very exagerated.

reply to post by Obliterated


nice take on that, i never thought about it from that aspect...ty for your contribution

Thanks, I never thought of it like that either. But it is interesting to see. Because they had and still have such a small population the supposed figures of the Holocaust should have near eliminated all of them.

I think that the figures of the population have been fabricated to reflect that a massive portion of them had been killed. Realistically if their growth rate was 9million per 40 years prior, then in a 200 year period say between 1700-1900 that would make about 45million jews by the year 1900 but there isn't. There's too many gaps in their history