The pre-creation existence of Jesus

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Bear in mind that the whole "killing people who do not follow the sabbath" argument is null due to the fact Jesus came to correct what had been abused by the Jewish leadership. Breaking one of the least commandments is still breaking the commandments. If you kill someone for not honoring the Sabbath, you break the commandment "you shall not murder." These laws and statutes that were attached to the ten commandments were bylaws created by Moses to prove the point that breaking the commandments comes with punishment. Well, the Laws have been written in the heart and mind of true christians which means we need to find it in ourselves to follow the commandments. If we break the commandments, it will be God we deal with, not the Jewish authorities. Also, the law did not define one to stay in their houses on the Sabbath. Sabbath-keepers of Jerusalem were not to leave the confines of the city but were allowed out of their houses. It was the weekly day of worship as well as Jews would flock to the synagogues to worship and learn of God. Why don't you read the actual commandment yourself....

Exodus 20:

8 “ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

What does it mean to bless and hallow something?

To bless:
a] bestow good, give favor; sanctify, make holy
b] To guard; to keep; to protect
c] To praise, or glorify; to extol for excellences
d] To make or pronounce holy; to consecrate To make happy, blithesome, or joyous; to confer prosperity or happiness upon; to grant divine favor to

To Hallow:
a] sanctify, consecrate, bless, exalt, glorify
b] To make holy, to sanctify
c] To make holy; to set apart for holy or religious use; to consecrate; to treat or keep as sacred; to reverence
d] consecrated or sanctified


So what does "sanctify" mean?

to sanctify:
a] To make holy; to consecrate. Set aside for sacred or ceremonial use
b] To make sacred or holy; to set apart to a holy or religious use; to consecrate by appropriate rites; to hallow

So what does consecrate mean?

to consecrate:
a] sanctify, bless, make sacred; dedicate, devote (to a cause or purpose)
b] To make, or declare to be, sacred; to appropriate to sacred uses; to set apart, dedicate, or devote, to the service or worship of God; as, to consecrate a church; to give (one's self) unreservedly, as to the service of God


So the Sabbath commandment is said to be holy, blessed, and hallowed which in turn means it is dedicated for the services or worship of God. We rest from our daily activities and take time out of our hectic lives to give the entire sabbath day to the Lord and to study His word.

As far as capital punishment for breaking the law goes, Jesus has taken His place as King, High Priest, and Saviour of mankind. As King, He sets the rules for punishment. As High Priest, He atones for our sins when we pray, and as our savior He has payed the price for our sins. Unlike what most people believe (that Jesus did away with the law), I understand the specifics of Jesus' sacrifice. He took over the Levitical priesthood as high priest forever and always. This is why animal sacrifices ended as well.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No one from Adam till Moses kept the sabbath, the ENTIRE Mosaic Law gas only given to man to condemn him, to convict him of sin so that he would be drawn to seek a redeemer. With the law every man was condemned, and NONE were justified before God except for Christ

Genesis 26:4-5

4 "And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

reply to post by Locoman8


I agree that when Jesus came he fulfilled the Law:

Now, what about this law for the Sabbath?:

"Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out. So the people rested on the seventh day." Exodus 16:29-30

reply to post by Locoman8

The Law was not given to man until Moses did so with the stone tablets. The Word also says that Abraham trusted God with everything God told him to do and his trust in God was counted for righteousness.

The verse you posted is correct, but it doesn't say God said anything to Abraham about the Sabbath.

If a man leaves his house on the Sabbath he breaks the Sabbath. If one meets others at a church on the 7th day he breaks the Sabbath.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
Romans 3:31 "Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not! Instead we uphold the law."

Proverbs 28:4 "Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law contend with them."

Psalms 119:44 "Then I will keep your law continually now and for all time."

2 Kings 17:13 The Lord solemnly warned Israel and Judah through all his prophets and all the seers, “Turn back from your evil ways; obey my commandments and rules that are recorded in the law. I ordered your ancestors to keep this law and sent my servants the prophets to remind you of its demands.”

Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcised man obeys the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

John 7:19 Hasn’t Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law! Why do you want to kill me?”

Proverbs 29:18 When there is no prophetic vision the people cast off restraint, but the one who keeps the law, blessed is he!

Psalms 119:136 Tears stream down from my eyes, because people do not keep your law.

Psalms 119:55 I remember your name during the night, O Lord, and I will keep your law.

These verses seem to equate following the law with being good.
The last one seems to equate the name of God with His law.

"Was Jesus a Created Being?"

John 1:3 contains two direct statements that tell us it was the preexistent Jesus who created ALL THINGS" 'All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made," Notice that John is not content to say only that all things were made through Him, but John adds the fact that "without Him nothing was made."

Paul confirms exactly what John wrote: "For in Him all things were created." Paul goes on to make sure that we understand what he means by all things - "That are in heaven and that are on the earth visible and invisible whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him". (Colossians 1:16)

Since Jesus created all things, He could not have been one of the "created things". Paul then adds , so there can be no mistake, "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (verse 17)

The context of this passage makes it clear that there are no exceptions; Christ is the Creator of all things including angels and everything visible or invisible, No where is this more clear that Christ is not a creature - angelic or other wise - than in the relation of angels to Him. Since Christ could not be both the Creator of everything and at the same time a creature Himself, it is necessary to conclude that He is Himself the uncreated Creator of all creation.

I have much more I would like to add to this thread, but forgive me I am tired. I am fighting off three infections again and one of them is the dangerous staph. I would appreciate all prayers.

Peace to all,
Grandma

reply to post by jmdewey60


"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10

If you leave your house on the sabbath you break the Sabbath.

"See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." Exodus 16:29

Have you ever failed one part of the law at anytime in your life? Remember the Mosaic Law has 613 commandments in it in the Torah.

if you have never failed one of those 613 commandments then congratulations, you have kept the Law of Moses!!!!

If you can't say you have then you have failed the Law of Moses and need a savior.

If you leave your house on the 7th day you fail to keep the Sabbath as commanded by God.

Do you leave your house on the Sabbath, or do you stay inside it till sundown Saturday night?

I sure hope you never leave the house till sundown Saturday evening, I would hate to find out you are a "Sabbath-breaker".

Originally posted by Grandma
John 1:3 "without Him nothing was made."

The context of this passage makes it clear that there are no exceptions; Christ is the Creator of all things including angels and everything visible or invisible, No where is this more clear that Christ is not a creature - angelic or other wise - than in the relation of angels to Him. Since Christ could not be both the Creator of everything and at the same time a creature Himself, it is necessary to conclude that He is Himself the uncreated Creator of all creation.

ive been thinking about this long and hard trying to see if jesus being referred to as "firstborn" could be taken in a metaphoric way. perhaps meaning that he is more important. ironically, its something that grandma said that raised a flag.

she says:"No where is this more clear that Christ is not a creature - angelic or other wise

col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

its a label or a class.

lets say their are 2 possible interpretations of this passage. 1. literal, and 2. metaphoric.

the literal interpretation is that jesus is the literal first creation of god. created before all other things. since jesus is described as being part of that class, then there is no conflict.

in other words, jesus is not just "firstborn", he is "firstborn OF ALL "creation". the scripture is claiming that he is part of this class "creation."

let's say the scripture is metaphoric, and its referring to jesus as "important". it STILL places him in that class. he is "firstborn" (most important or prominent) OF all creation.

in others words, jesus is classed with "creation", not uncreated.

grandma so neatly pointed out the contradiction. if jesus was uncreated, he couldnt be the "firstborn of all creation". firstborn of god? sure, but not of creation.

col goes on

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

here we have a second "firstborn" but its not the same as before. this time he is the "firstborn from the dead"

again, we can look at this 2 ways. we know that he isnt the first to be resurrected, however he was the first to be resurrected to heaven. so in this case it could be a literal first. but the scripture could be metaphoric too. he could be firstborn in that he has prominence. either way, he belonged to the class "dead"

to put this simply, col 1:15 testifies that jesus was created whether you take "firstborn" to be literal or not. either way he is "of all creation" so he had to have been created.

this is in harmony with revelation 3:14 which is harder to "explain away" where jesus is called the "beginning of God's creation".

jesus was literally the first thing ever created. john 1:3 doesnt contradict this since it is not referring to jesus's creation.

1:1 says "in the beginning". it is commonly accepted that this is referring to the beginning of physical creation (gen 1:1). this would have likely have been long after the creation of jesus.

since john 1:3 is specifically referring to creation in the context of physical, its true when it says that nothing was created without jesus. the scripture excludes jesus because its not referring to his creation.

Remember Jesus in the Flesh was the Lamb and was not greater than the Father, when he rose from the Dead he was titled different, when he returns he will be the Lord or Lords. Of course he was not greater in the Flash but when he passed the human treatment and became spirit he rose to the sky. There was a transition, one perspective was he was still human but he merged in the Flesh. Think of the Hulk or something, bruce banner might be a weed but when he gets angry he turns into the Hulk, but the difference is that Jesus was always the super being but his physical death of the flesh helped mankind get a ticket back to heaven through faith.

Greater Works! - John 14:12-14

I tell you the truth. The person that believes in me will do the same things I have done. Yes! He will do even greater things than I have done. Why? Because I am going to the Father. And if you ask for anything in my name, I will do it for you. Then the Father's glory will be shown through the Son. If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it.
_____________________

So how can his deciples do greater things than Jesus? Does that mean they are greater now? Not really, it means their actions will produce greater miracles too but they are still earthbound but they will use his powers to do his work.
_____________________


John 15
The Vine and the Branches

5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
__________________


John 16
1"All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you. I did not tell you this at first because I was with you.

reply to post by miriam0566


That's a great explanation Miriam.

I think some Christians don't really understand Genesis 1:1 happened AFTER Jesus was created by his father.

God was alone, and not even in the universe, because it never even existed yet. No Space, No Time , No Matter, a quintillion years ago, it really boggles the mind.

Scientist's believe the universe is about 14 billion years old, so most likely Jesus Christ is over 14 billion years old. What the bible doesn't tell us is how much time elapsed between Jesus creation and the start of Genesis 1:1.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You can go to Miami Beach on Saturday morning and see Ultra-Orthodox Jews walking to synagogue, so that, to me, is not even an argument.
The restriction was about going out to collect manna, in the Sinai wilderness and was not meant to be universal.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

You can go to Miami Beach on Saturday morning and see Ultra-Orthodox Jews walking to synagogue, so that, to me, is not even an argument.
The restriction was about going out to collect manna, in the Sinai wilderness and was not meant to be universal.

U just used a biased sample to argue that the commandment of God is different than what it says in plain text in Exodus.

That's a fallacy of logic.

It plainly says that if you leave your house you are violating the Sabbath.

It ALSO says in the other verse I posted that to keep the entire law, yet fail just one tiny part of it, is to fail the ENTIRE law.

(Did you forget this verse?)

In "layman's terms" if a man was trying to keep the Mosaic Law in order to be justified blameless in the eyes of God that person could never transgress the entire law their entire lives.

That man was Jesus Christ. Only Jesus can keep the Mosaic Law for justification before God. That's why the Word says ALL our works are 'filthy rags" to God... they are being done by SINNERS.

Give it up man, stop the 2,000 year old ridiculous arguing and lets all be united on the NEED for Christ's imputed righteousness to our lives for justification before God.

Which coincidentally is what the first 8 chapters of Romans has to say.



[edit on 28-10-2009 by NOTurTypical]

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Give it up man, stop the 2,000 year old ridiculous arguing and lets all be united on the NEED for Christ's imputed righteousness to our lives for justification before God.

You don't have to tell me about imputed righteousness. You have to understand that the SDA church is very hard core reformationist so we have a vary good understanding of Righteousness by Faith. Last Sabbath I went to a neighboring church and they had a great guest speaker there doing the sermon and it was all about that Reformation theology. After the sermon, the church pastor got up and mentioned a few things and among that was the idea of being converted. I was intrigued by that and asked him later what does being converted mean. He gave a definition and some examples. One was, if someone realizes that the Ten Commandments says that we should keep the seventh day, and then decides, "well, everyone else is keeping Sunday, so I will just do that", that person is not converted. If someone else is in the same situation and instead says, "I realize what God wants me to do and I will trust in His judgment, and keep the seventh day", that person is converted.
The point is, the whole salvation thing only applies to those who are converted. It is not so much the keeping of the law that saves him, but the lack of desire, of following the demands of the law of God, makes one unfit for salvation.




[edit on 29-10-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
It plainly says that if you leave your house you are violating the Sabbath.

.........

In "layman's terms" if a man was trying to keep the Mosaic Law in order to be justified blameless in the eyes of God that person could never transgress the entire law their entire lives.

That man was Jesus Christ. Only Jesus can keep the Mosaic Law for justification before God. That's why the Word says ALL our works are 'filthy rags" to God... they are being done by SINNERS.

wasnt jesus in the field eating wheat on the sabbath? i think he was in the synagogue a few times healing?

was jesus violating the law then?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Give it up man, stop the 2,000 year old ridiculous arguing and lets all be united on the NEED for Christ's imputed righteousness to our lives for justification before God.

You don't have to tell me about imputed righteousness. You have to understand that the SDA church is very hard core reformationist so we have a vary good understanding of Righteousness by Faith. Last Sabbath I went to a neighboring church and they had a great guest speaker there doing the sermon and it was all about that Reformation theology. After the sermon, the church pastor got up and mentioned a few things and among that was the idea of being converted. I was intrigued by that and asked him later what does being converted mean. He gave a definition and some examples. One was, if someone realizes that the Ten Commandments says that we should keep the seventh day, and then decides, "well, everyone else is keeping Sunday, so I will just do that", that person is not converted. If someone else is in the same situation and instead says, "I realize what God wants me to do and I will trust in His judgment, and keep the seventh day", that person is converted.
The point is, the whole salvation thing only applies to those who are converted. It is not so much the keeping of the law that saves him, but the lack of desire of following the demands of the law of God makes one unfit for salvation.

Oh wow, then none of us besides Jesus Christ is "converted".

You need to understand there are 5 classifications of Christian:

1. The "Convert" (Timothy, or "Babes in Christ")
2. The "Disciple" (Barnibas)
3. The "Leader" (Paul)

And there are 2 classifications of Christians among these 3 spoken of in the Word:

1. The "Righteous" (All converts, by Christ's imputed righteousness)
2. The "Holy" (All those who are "over-comers", those complete in their "sanctification" by the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives)

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." ~ James 2:10

Why do you REFUSE to address this passage of scripture?? I know why, the conviction of the Holy Spirit prevents you from claiming you have zero sin in your life 1 John 1:10. "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Or are you claiming you have never committed a single sin?

(That's fine though, everyone reading or debate can plainly see the fact presented by this verse, and understands why we all need HIS righteousness, that NONE of us are righteous in God's eyes apart from the Lord.)

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:5

(Salvation is a FREE GIFT, not a "REWARD")

Are Christians to live in sin then?? Absolutely not, Jesus tells us to OBEY, but that is PRECISELY why the Lord gives us all rewards or we can have them taken away at the judgment seat of Christ, you get rewards for how faithfully one lived their life after conversion, but none at the judgment seat of Christ are lost to Hell:

""If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss(loss of reward from the Lord, "treasures stored up in heaven): but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:15


"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6

“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”

I suggest you read the first chapter of Romans, the T.U.L.I.P. doctrine is crushed in Romans. (I used to go to a Reformed Presbyterian church myself, it was one of those I left. Especially because they were teaching "Limited Atonement" and Romans 5:12-21 destroys that idea.)

reply to post by NOTurTypical

(I used to go to a Reformed Presbyterian church myself, it was one of those I left. Especially because they were teaching "Limited Atonement" and Romans 5:12-21 destroys that idea.)

It is not out of some kind of fear that I do not address Ro. 4:5, but because it has nothing to do with the argument, at least as you interpret it. You do not seem to be able to take it in context. You pick out verses in isolation and make up your own context.
Here's something I could use as an example that just happened three days ago. A friend of mine says he has a brother-in-law who needs a place to live, and is moving into town in a few days. So my friend and the brother-in-law and I go in the back yard. My friend tells me his brother-in-law is a landscaper by trade and he could get my yard looking good. I told them, since he does not have a job or income yet, being new in town, I would allow him to stay on condition he gets rid of all the trees in my yard that are an invasive nuisance. They agree, and my friend says he will make sure it gets done. Five months later, all the trees are still there so I tell the guy to get out. Rightfully, my friend, to hold his end up, would have to come in and take out the trees himself in order for his brother-in-law to stay. Why didn't he do it himself, having five months to at least start it, my friend would ask himself. So did my friend cut them out himself? No. Because he did not show the slightest inclination to do anything at all.
When he told himself, 'Oh, I don't have to worry, and my brother-in-law will intercede on my behalf and I will be assured a place in the landowners house', he lost out because he is worthless and has to go out into the darkness.


[edit on 29-10-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


The point of the verse is you can keep the Sabbath all you want, let's say you never failed the Sabbath once, but if you lied once then it's the same as if you failed every commandment of God.

To fail in one is to fail all, because God demands ALL to be counted "justified" in His eyes.

The "old covenant" with man died with Jesus Christ because he fulfilled it and died in place for us being the unblemished Lamb of God. The old covenant died with Jesus.

Hebrews 8:12-13 confirms this fact:

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

And this "death" of the old covenant was foretold in a prophecy in the Old Testament:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

Jeremiah 31:31-33

reply to post by NOTurTypical

saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;

There is still a law, or does that word just not mean anything to you?
We are not saved by our own merits. We are all lawbreakers, so we are in need of the covering of Jesus. That does not mean there is no law. Paul talks about people being condemned by the law. How could that happen if there is no law? The law was not done away with. Man's inability of following the law necessitated another method of salvation, one that did not require the individual to keep the law perfectly. This does not mean that people are free to throw off all restraint.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us,

reply to post by jmdewey60


I NEVER said "there is no law", it's IN OUR HEARTS. It's the "comforter" the Holy Spirit that Christ promised, the Jeremiah 31:31-33 foretold.

it's no longer on paper written down in scrolls, it SPEAKS to us daily in conviction!

Did Jesus only say that not on jot ot title would ever pass from the law??

Or did the Lord say something entirely different?

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" Matthew 5:17-18.

Matthew 5:17-18 paraphrase: "the law and prophets will endure forever unless/untill it be fulfilled."

Who "fulfilled" the Mosaic Law??? I'll give you a hint, it was the man who said He came TO FULFILL IT.

that is why Jesus Christ gave only 2 commandments to follow. Just 2: Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. And love your neighbor as yourself.

This is the NEW covenant with man, the OLD covenant was fulfilled.

We already know you don't stay inside your house on the Sabbath, do you guys offer animal sacrifices demanded in the Mosaic Law?

1. Why did Jesus come? (Answer: to fulfil the law and the prophets)
2. Was Jesus successful in his mission to fulfil the law? (Answer: Yes)
3. What happens when Jesus fulfils the law and the prophets? (Answer: Only then will the law be destroyed.)
4. Did Jesus come to fulfill the Law of Moses? (yes)
5. Was the law of Moses abolished when Jesus fulfilled it? (yes)
6. Did Jesus fulfill the law and the prophets? (yes)

Jesus Christ fulfilled every jot and tittle of the law and then nailed it to the cross. And the Word written in Hebrews 8:12-13 SAID THIS HAPPENED, and that God now has a NEW COVENANT with man after the OLD was passed AWAY. Our NEW COVENANT, has just 2 commandments.

1. Love God
2. Love everyone else


[edit on 29-10-2009 by NOTurTypical]

[edit on 29-10-2009 by NOTurTypical]

reply to post by NOTurTypical

(Answer: Only then will the law be destroyed.)

You seem to be pretty sure about that.
And that is based on. . .what?
Why don't you go to your pastor and tell him flat out, "the Ten Commandments are destroyed and we no longer need to keep them".
Let me know how that works out.