The pre-creation existence of Jesus

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, to say otherwise is heresy and damnation.

1 John 4:2-3

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

hmm...

"Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh" vs. "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God"

you dont see the difference between the 2 statements or are you blind?

jesus christ is come in the flesh (it means that jesus was a spirit, and then he was human) is of god (is sent by, on god's side)

where does the scripture say that jesus is god again?
where does it say god came in the flesh?

still does answer the scripture i quoted showing that god is the head of christ.

why dont you read the passages you quote before calling me the antichrist k?

abbreviated history of the trinity

History of The Trinity

The growth of the doctrine of a triune God, is briefly but plainly, set forth in the following facts:

A.D. 29 Jesus said, "The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29).

A.D. 57 Paul said, "To us there is but one God" (1 Cor. 8:6).

A.D. 96 Clement said, "Christ was sent by God".

A.D. 120 "Apostles' Creed": "I believe in God the Father".

A.D. 150 Justin Martyr, introduces Greek Philosophy.

A.D. 170 The word "Trias", appears first in Christian literature.

A.D. 200. "Trinitas" is first introduced by Tertullian.

A.D. 280 Origen, opposes prayers to Christ.

A.D. 260 Sabellius: "Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three names for the same God".

A.D. 300 Trinitarian prayers unknown in the Church.

A.D. 325 "Nicene Creed" affirms Christ to be "Very God of Very God".

A.D. 370 Doxology composed.

A.D. 381. Council of Constantinople invents "Three persons in One God".

A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't worship the Trinity.

A.D. 519 Doxology ordered to be sung in all the Churches.

A.D. 669 Clergy commanded to commit to memory the "Athanasian Creed".

A.D. 826 Bishop Basil, required the clergy to repeat the " Athanasian Creed" every Sunday.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Do you think Pagans and Gnostics are "good trees" or "corrupt trees"? I have NEVER read anywhere in the Word of God where it refers to pagans as "good".

Everything you post actually speaks against the Trinity because it is a Pagan doctrine itself, so I agree with you.

Christendom proved itself to be a corrupt tree by apostatizing from Jesus teachings murdering those that didn't believe what they believed. It was only after the bible was printed and could be read that a few brave men read it, and came to the correct conclusion, the Trinity is false and spawns from Paganism.

I have studied this in great detail for over twenty years, I listen to what the bible says, not what some old men in the 4th century that decided to placate their fellow neighbors who had fused all kinds of Pagan idea's together.

One God

* Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'"
* John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
* 1Corinthians 8:5-6: "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
* 1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
* James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."
* John 14:28: “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’t If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

Son and Father

* Mark 13:32: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
* John 1:18: "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten son who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
* John 14:28: "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
* John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
* John 20:17: "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
* Acts 7:55-56: "But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."
* Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
* Corinthians 15:24-28: "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
* Revelation 3:14: "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:"

Ontological differences

# John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth."
# John 17:1-3 Jesus prays to God.
# Hebrews 2:17,18 Hebrews 3:2 Jesus has faith in God.
# Acts 3:13 Jesus is a servant of God.
# Mark 13:32 Revelation 1:1 Jesus does not know things God knows.
# John 4:22 Jesus worships God.
# Revelation 3:12 Jesus has one who is God to him.
# 1stCorinthians 15:28 Jesus is in subjection to God.
# 1stCorinthians 11:1 Jesus' head is God.
# Hebrews 5:7 Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God.
# Acts 2:36 Jesus is given lordship by God.
# Acts 5:31 Jesus is exalted by God.
# Hebrews 5:10 Jesus is made high priest by God.
# Philippians 2:9 Jesus is given authority by God.
# Luke 1:32,33 Jesus is given kingship by God.
# Acts 10:42 Jesus is given judgment by God.
# Acts 2:24, Romans 10.9, 1 Cor 15:15 "God raised [Jesus] from the dead".
# Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34 Jesus is at the right hand of God.
# 1 Tim 2:5 Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man.
# 1 Cor 15:24-28 God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus.
# Philippians 2:6 Jesus did not believe being one with God was possible
# Matthew 27:46: "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?""

So you see the scriptures presented above cannot be simply dismissed & ignored because they don't agree with your personal belief, if you do, then you have an emotional dependence on dogma.

I have said this a million times, Jesus Christ and the Almighty God have always been as one in unity and purpose. But they have always been separate and unique entities too.

I am sorry if you can not see it, but millions have seen it and now understand it.

Originally posted by miriam0566


hmm...

"Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh" vs. "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God"

you dont see the difference between the 2 statements or are you blind?

Not blind, just fully aware of 1 Timothy 3:16 which plainly states:

"And without controversy (read = "disagreement between the Apostles") great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

jesus christ is come in the flesh (it means that jesus was a spirit, and then he was human) is of god (is sent by, on god's side)

We agree! Jesus Christ did in fact come to Earth in the flesh. But who was Jesus before this miracle? let's see what the Word says:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:" Ephesians 3:9

Hmm, so Jesus Christ is the Creator of all things by His spoken Word?

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2

So, Jesus had no beginning/was not created/was from everlasting?? Correct.

"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven." 1 Corinthians 15:47

The first man created by God was Adam, and Adam was created from the Earth/dirt, the second man created by God was Jesus Christ, and was conceived by His own Spirit, i.e. Him manifest in the flesh just as 1 Timothy 3;16 plainly states, and the Apostles did agree "without controversy" or without disagreement.

where does the scripture say that jesus is god again?

"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US." Matthew 1:23

"...if ye believe not that I am He,
ye shall die in your sins." Matthew 8:24

The Bible says God is the ONLY Saviour: Isaiah 43:11, Jude 1:12, Titus 2:10, 1 Timothy 4:10, Luke 1:47.

It, the Bible, says Jesus is the ONLY Saviour: 1 John 4:14, Peter 3:18, Peter 1:1, John 4:42, Titus 1:4, Luke 2:11, Acts 4:12, 2 Timothy 2:10, Hebrews 2:10, Hebrews 5:9

So if the Bible says that God is the "ONLY" Savior (notice Saviour is capitalized), and says Jesus Christ is the "ONLY" Saviour what does that tell us about Jesus Christ? Ummm, He is God??

"I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." Isaiah 44:24 also see Genesis 1:1

So God/the LORD says in Isaiah that He created all things.. by Himself. And we also know from scripture that Jesus Christ created the universe by Himself;

"[B]y him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him." Colossians 1:16 also see Hebrews 1:10, and John 1:3

So if God created all things "by Himself" and "for Himself" and the Bible also says Jesus Christ created all things "by Himself" and "for Himself" what does that tell us? Ummm, Jesus Christ is God????

God is the Word;

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

And the Bible plainly states the Jesus Christ is the Word;

"...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1:14

The Bible says God is the "first and the last"...

"I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am He." Isaiah 41:4

Jesus Christ says He is the "first and the last"..

"Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17

The Bible says God can only forgive sins...

"[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7 also see Psalm 103:2-3

Jesus Christ forgives sins in the Bible..

"Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5

God is one in the Bible..

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Deuteronomy 6:4

Jesus and God are one in the same..

"Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" John 14:9,

"I and my Father are one." John 10:30

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 john 5:7

Only God is to be worshipped...

"... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10

Jesus was worshiped by man and forbid none to do so...

"While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him..." Matthew 9:18

"And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Hebrews 1:6

"And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God." John 20:28

God is "I AM"..

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." Exodus 3:14

Jesus calls Himself "I AM"..

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." John 8:58

Also see:

"For unto us A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

Now, I'm kinda nerve racked that you asked me that question, and made my TYPE out all those verses when i previously linked the answer to your previous question HERE. I link things for a reason, and if you aren't going to read them and ponder whether they are correct or not then don't ask me further questions please....

where does it say god came in the flesh?

Already answered: see 1 Timothy 3:16

""And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON in the world, RECEIVED UP into glory."

still does answer the scripture i quoted showing that god is the head of christ.

You posted ONE verse that seems to contradict, I've posted NUMEROUS that state plainly otherwise.

why dont you read the passages you quote before calling me the antichrist k?

Why don't you re-read my post? I DIDN'T call you "the" antichrist, I said somone who denies that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh has the "SPIRIT" on antichrist. There are MANY "a/an" antichrists, but only one "the" antichrist in scripture. There is an enormous difference in the Greek between "a/an" something and "the" something that get's lost in the English language.

You need to read what I said again, and I didn't say it from myself, I quoted it from the Word.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33
The doctrine that God is one God in 3 persons is not pagan, it's plainly stated in 1 John 5:7:

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

The pagans and Gnostics at Alexandria Egypt REMOVED this verse from their PERversions of scripture because they didn't like the idea.

The Christians at Antioch, who the NT calls the "first Christians" rejected the Alexandrian MSS as heretical.

time is a beliefsystem in god,
it means that it allready exsists, before you're there.
it means it allready exsisted before times were,
god and this reality always exsist on the same time.
because god as truth is all time.

The manifestation of the son of man,
history in it's structure,
was planned, and exsisted before creation moved forward.

the son of man are all prophets,
and later, all in salvation.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


This getting embarrassing for you, I post dozens of scriptures that refute the Trinity and you post one that is mistranslated, LOL.

1 John 5:7 here is the literal Greek Translation.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/927cd8a98eae.jpg[/atsimg]

As you can see the KJV clearly had a bias when translating that verse in error.

The NIV accurately represents the Greek without adding any bias simply saying

7For there are three that testify:

Any scripture you post has an explanation, I have been down this road too many times with those that believe this false dogma.
This verse is one of the easier ones.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


I don't doubt the NIV, NASV, RSV, etc don't portray the trinity. These versions of the Bible are translated from the Minority Greek manuscripts. Origen who brought us the Textus Vanaticus and Textus Sinaticus didn't believe in the Trinity, he also denied the divinity of Christ.

that is why his manuscripts don't include such.. it was his belief. So, the NIV, NSAV, RSV are fantastic translations indeed, however they are translations the early Antioch, Syria Christians rejected, rejected because they said they were heretical.

These Christians should know best, the Apostle Paul stayed with them for over a year and the Bible calls them the "first Christians." So I completely trust you that the NIV, NASV, or RSV remove the trinity doctrine from 1 John 5:7, and cast doubt of the divinity of Christ... that's precisely what Origen thought and taught in Alexandria Egypt.

What does the "authorized" KJV, translated from the Textus Receptus, (manuscript used by the first Christians at Antioch, Syria), say?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh" vs. "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God"

you dont see the difference between the 2 statements or are you blind?

Not blind, just fully aware of 1 Timothy 3:16 which plainly states:

"And without controversy (read = "disagreement between the Apostles") great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

again, you arent reading the passages.

"God was manifest in the flesh" ≠ "god came in the flesh"

manifest - 1 : readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sight
2 : easily understood or recognized by the mind : obvious
synonyms see "evident"

john 1:[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

let me repeat that scripture for you in case it hasnt sunk in.

john 1:[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

again.... i see no scripture that says god came in the flesh.

We agree! Jesus Christ did in fact come to Earth in the flesh. But who was Jesus before this miracle? let's see what the Word says:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

learn greek.

"a god"

"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:" Ephesians 3:9

Hmm, so Jesus Christ is the Creator of all things by His spoken Word?

wrong. jesus was God's master worker.

"God, who created all things by Jesus Christ"

same way you talk to someone BY phone.
you write someone BY letter

seriously, READ the passages before posting them.

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2

So, Jesus had no beginning/was not created/was from everlasting?? Correct.

english was not the bible's original language.

עוֹלָם
(olam) - ages (1), all successive (1), always (1), ancient (13), ancient times (3), continual (1), days of old (1), eternal (2), eternity (3), ever (10), Everlasting (2), everlasting (110), forever (136), forever and ever (1), forever* (70), forevermore* (1), lasting (1), long (2), long ago (3), long past (1), long time (3), never* (17), old (11), permanent (10), permanently (1), perpetual (29), perpetually (1).

young's literal renders this passage

"And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth -- to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth are of old, From the days of antiquity."

your scripture is by no means proof especially in light of col 1:15 and rev 3:14

"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven." 1 Corinthians 15:47

The first man created by God was Adam, and Adam was created from the Earth/dirt, the second man created by God was Jesus Christ, and was conceived by His own Spirit, i.e. Him manifest in the flesh just as 1 Timothy 3;16 plainly states, and the Apostles did agree "without controversy" or without disagreement.

again, doesnt prove that jesus is god.

if jesus was god's son, then it would have happened pretty much the same.

jesus was a spirit. God transfers jesus to the womb by means of his spirit (or active force, not person). Jesus is born human.

where does the scripture say that jesus is god again?

"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US." Matthew 1:23

isaiah 8:[9] Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.
[10] Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.

does that mean that God was in human form during Isaiah's time?

"Adamina" means - The Earth
does that mean that any child with that name is literally the earth?

"Amiel" means - God Of My People
does that mean any amiel is a god?

it is the meaning of a name. a meaning i might add that specifically refers to god's favor NOT presence.

rev 21:[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

does this mean that god will take human form and literally live on earth?

logically no, because "god is a spirit" and no man can see god and yet live.

so tell me again how the meaning of emmanuel proves jesus is god?

"...if ye believe not that I am He,
ye shall die in your sins." Matthew 8:24

its john 8 BTW

[16] And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
[17] It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
[18] I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
[19] Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
[20] These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
[21] Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

umm, i think that if you wanted to prove the trinity, you should have left this scripture out.

see jesus is plainly stating that he and his father are separate people. if they weren't, then he only has the testimony of one, and everything that jesus was explaining in that passage is for nothing.

The Bible says God is the ONLY Saviour: Isaiah 43:11, Jude 1:12, Titus 2:10, 1 Timothy 4:10, Luke 1:47.

of course, God was the only person who could provide Jesus as a ransom.

It, the Bible, says Jesus is the ONLY Saviour: 1 John 4:14, Peter 3:18, Peter 1:1, John 4:42, Titus 1:4, Luke 2:11, Acts 4:12, 2 Timothy 2:10, Hebrews 2:10, Hebrews 5:9

So if the Bible says that God is the "ONLY" Savior (notice Saviour is capitalized), and says Jesus Christ is the "ONLY" Saviour what does that tell us about Jesus Christ? Ummm, He is God??

1 john 4:[14] And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
acknowledges the father's role

2 pet 3:[18] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
missing the "only" from your quote

2 pet 1:[1] Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
missing "only"

john 4:[42] And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
no "only"

titus 1:[4] To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
no "only"

luke 2:[11] For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
no "only"

acts 4:[12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
this one DOES saying that only jesus can provide salvation, but only in relation to other "men"

2 tim 2:[10] Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
no "only"

heb 2:[10] For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
no "only"

heb 5:[9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

where is this "only" you are quoting for jesus? your quoting things that arent there.

how can God be the only saviour, and yet have jesus also called saviour? simple.

john 3:[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God is ultimately responsible for our salvation.
it was God who uttered the first prophecy in eden regarding the seed.
it was God who figured out how to redeem man.

Jesus went along with God's plans.

Isaiah 44:24 also see Genesis 1:1

So God/the LORD says in Isaiah that He created all things.. by Himself. And we also know from scripture that Jesus Christ created the universe by Himself;

"By him (Jesus) were all things created, .......Colossians 1:16 also see Hebrews 1:10, and John 1:3

So if God created all things "by Himself" and "for Himself" and the Bible also says Jesus Christ created all things "by Himself" and "for Himself" what does that tell us? Ummm, Jesus Christ is God????

"By him (Jesus) were all things created, "

the scriptures themselves explain it.

God is creator. God's design. God's authority.
Jesus was his worker.

proverbs 8:Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,

credit goes to God, but logically one can say that jesus did too.

besides, who do you think God was talking to when he made man?

gen 1:[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

God is the Word;

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

And the Bible plainly states the Jesus Christ is the Word;

"...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1:14

again. learn greek

john 1:1 should be rendered "a god"

go to your local greek orthodox church, ask them.

The Bible says God is the "first and the last"...

"I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am He." Isaiah 41:4

Jesus Christ says He is the "first and the last"..

"Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17

Isaiah is referring to god's unique position as almighty god (isaiah 44:6)

revelation is referring to jesus' unique position regarding resurrection. Jesus was the first to be resurrected personally by God. Jesus was also the Last to be resurrected by God.

rev 1: 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

so no, this is not proof that jesus is god.

The Bible says God can only forgive sins...

"[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7 also see Psalm 103:2-3

Jesus Christ forgives sins in the Bible..

"Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5

because jesus was given the authority

john 5: [22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
[30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

so if jesus is God, why does he need to be given anything?

God is one in the Bible..

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Deuteronomy 6:4

Jesus and God are one in the same..

"Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" John 14:9,

"I and my Father are one." John 10:30

if that scripture means they are the same, then so are you and me and ive never met you.

john 17:[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 john 5:7

sorry, that scripture was added around the 8th century

7 ὅτι τρεῖς εἰμί ὁ μαρτυρέω (for there are three that testify)
8 ὁ πνεῦμα καί ὁ ὕδωρ καί ὁ αἷμα καί ὁ τρεῖς εἰς ὁ εἷς εἰμί (the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.)

sorry, no trinity

still does answer the scripture i quoted showing that god is the head of christ.

You posted ONE verse that seems to contradict, I've posted NUMEROUS that state plainly otherwise.

and you STILL refuse to explain it.

one verse that turns the entire doctrine of the trinity on its head.

you cant explain it. God is jesus' head. they are not co-equal, they are not the same person.

want another one?

hebrews 5: [7] Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
[8] Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

why does god need to learn obedience? or learn anything for that matter?

another?

john 8:[17] It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
[18] I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

how can their testimony count as 2 if isaiah says that god is ONE?

feel free to explain any of these to me

I said somone who denies that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh has the "SPIRIT" on antichrist.

......You need to read what I said again, and I didn't say it from myself, I quoted it from the Word.

but you DIDNT quote the word.

2 john 1: "who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh"

nothing about jesus being god manifest in the flesh...

ETC ETC ETC. seriously, i have gone over these passages over and over and over again.

i mean this from the bottom of my heart. read. your posting passages that dont help your position which means that you dont see what they are actually saying.

the trinity is a farce. it was integrated slowly over the centuries. whether the people ho believed in it were honest hearted or not doesnt mean anything. it was ADDED.

the bible provides enough context to show this.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
These Christians should know best, the Apostle Paul stayed with them for over a year and the Bible calls them the "first Christians." So I completely trust you that the NIV, NASV, or RSV remove the trinity doctrine from 1 John 5:7, and cast doubt of the divinity of Christ... that's precisely what Origen thought and taught in Alexandria Egypt.

What does the "authorized" KJV, translated from the Textus Receptus, (manuscript used by the first Christians at Antioch, Syria), say?

“5:7 For there are three that testify, 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement.” --NET Bible

Before toV pneu'ma kaiV toV u[dwr kaiV toV ai|ma, the Textus Receptus reads ejn tw'/ oujranw'/, oJ pathvr, oJ lovgo", kaiV toV a[gion pneu'ma, kaiV ou|toi oiJ trei'" e[n eijsi. 5:8 kaiV trei'" eijsin oiJ marturou'nte" ejn th'/ gh'/ (“in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that testify on earth”). This reading, the infamous Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King James translation. However, the evidence—both external and internal—is decidedly against its authenticity. Our discussion will briefly address the external evidence.1

This longer reading is found only in eight late manuscripts, four of which have the words in a marginal note. Most of these manuscripts (2318, 221, and [with minor variations] 61, 88, 429, 629, 636, and 918) originate from the 16th century; the earliest manuscript, codex 221 (10th century), includes the reading in a marginal note which was added sometime after the original composition. Thus, there is no sure evidence of this reading in any Greek manuscript until the 1500s; each such reading was apparently composed after Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516. Indeed, the reading appears in no Greek witness of any kind (either manuscript, patristic, or Greek translation of some other version) until AD 1215 (in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin). This is all the more significant, since many a Greek Father would have loved such a reading, for it so succinctly affirms the doctrine of the Trinity.2 The reading seems to have arisen in a fourth century Latin homily in which the text was allegorized to refer to members of the Trinity. From there, it made its way into copies of the Latin Vulgate, the text used by the Roman Catholic Church.

The Trinitarian formula (known as the Comma Johanneum) made its way into the third edition of Erasmus’ Greek NT (1522) because of pressure from the Catholic Church. After his first edition appeared (1516), there arose such a furor over the absence of the Comma that Erasmus needed to defend himself. He argued that he did not put in the Comma because he found no Greek manuscripts that included it. Once one was produced (codex 61, written by one Roy or Froy at Oxford in c. 1520),3 Erasmus apparently felt obliged to include the reading. He became aware of this manuscript sometime between May of 1520 and September of 1521. In his annotations to his third edition he does not protest the rendering now in his text,4 as though it were made to order; but he does defend himself from the charge of indolence, noting that he had taken care to find whatever manuscripts he could for the production of his Greek New Testament. In the final analysis, Erasmus probably altered the text because of politico-theologico-economic concerns: he did not want his reputation ruined, nor his Novum Instrumentum to go unsold.

Modern advocates of the Textus Receptus and KJV generally argue for the inclusion of the Comma Johanneum on the basis of heretical motivation by scribes who did not include it. But these same scribes elsewhere include thoroughly orthodox readings—even in places where the TR/Byzantine manuscripts lack them. Further, these KJV advocates argue theologically from the position of divine preservation: since this verse is in the TR, it must be original. But this approach is circular, presupposing as it does that the TR = the original text. Further, it puts these Protestant proponents in the awkward and self-contradictory position of having to affirm that the Roman Catholic humanist, Erasmus, was just as inspired as the apostles, for on several occasions he invented readings—due either to carelessness or lack of Greek manuscripts (in particular, for the last six verses of Revelation Erasmus had to back-translate from Latin to Greek).

In reality, the issue is history, not heresy: How can one argue that the Comma Johanneum must go back to the original text when it did not appear until the 16th century in any Greek manuscripts? Such a stance does not do justice to the gospel: faith must be rooted in history. To argue that the Comma must be authentic is Bultmannian in its method, for it ignores history at every level. As such, it has very little to do with biblical Christianity, for a biblical faith is one that is rooted in history.

Significantly, the German translation done by Luther was based on Erasmus’ second edition (1519) and lacked the Comma. But the KJV translators, basing their work principally on Theodore Beza’s 10th edition of the Greek NT (1598), a work which itself was fundamentally based on Erasmus’ third and later editions (and Stephanus’ editions), popularized the Comma for the English-speaking world. Thus, the Comma Johanneum has been a battleground for English-speaking Christians more than for others.

Unfortunately, for many, the Comma and other similar passages have become such emotional baggage that is dragged around whenever the Bible is read that a knee-jerk reaction and ad hominem argumentation becomes the first and only way that they can process this issue. Sadly, neither empirical evidence nor reason can dissuade them from their views. The irony is that their very clinging to tradition at all costs (namely, of an outmoded translation which, though a literary monument in its day, is now like a Model T on the Autobahn) emulates Roman Catholicism in its regard for tradition.5 If the King James translators knew that this would be the result nearly four hundred years after the completion of their work, they’d be writhing in their graves.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Miriam and myself have posted so much evidence against the Trinity, and yet your fall back position is poor translation, EVEN AFTER WE HAVE POSTED THE GREEK ITSELF.
So now the Greek is wrong too? Talk about grasping at straws to prop up your belief structure.

No my friend you just don't want to see what is right in front of you. And I am not going to go in circles with you on this any further.

It is time to conclude this with you, with 3 scriptures.


Romans 10:2

2For I can testify on their behalf that they have a zeal for God, but it is not in keeping with full knowledge.

2 Peter 3:16

16 And as he said in all his letters, which had to do with these things; in which are some hard sayings, so that, like the rest of the holy Writings, they are twisted by those who are uncertain and without knowledge, to the destruction of their souls.

2 Corinthians 4 1-4

1God has been kind enough to trust us with this work. That's why we never give up. 2We don't do shameful things that must be kept secret. And we don't try to fool anyone or twist God's message around. God is our witness that we speak only the truth, so others will be sure that we can be trusted. 3If there is anything hidden about our message, it is hidden only to someone who is lost. 4The god who rules this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers. They cannot see the light, which is the good news about our glorious Christ, who shows what God is like.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
No my friend you just don't want to see what is right in front of you.....

2 Corinthians 4 1-4 4The god who rules this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers. They cannot see the light, which is the good news about our glorious Christ, who shows what God is like.

it really is creepy how that happens. how a scripture can literally explain itself, and yet people can be blind to it.

it give me a headache trying to sort it out.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The water, spirit and blood are a witness to Christ because it represents His death and resurrection. The trinity verse was added by the catholics. Everything else you posted, I agree on because I believe Jesus was YHWH of the Old Testament who came to reveal the Father... a diety unknown to the Jews.... the Father who was there all along in the background. Your scripture attests to that in many ways but miriam and bluejay are right. The trinity is false doctrine.

Originally posted by Locoman8
TI believe Jesus was YHWH of the Old Testament who came to reveal the Father... a diety unknown to the Jews.... the Father who was there all along in the background.

psalm 83 :[18] That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Isaiah 44:6 6“This is what the Lord says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

if jesus is Jehovah and he is revealing the father, he's doing a poor job.

sounds more like he is usurping the father

I am the first and I am the last;



[edit on 21-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Locoman8
TI believe Jesus was YHWH of the Old Testament who came to reveal the Father... a diety unknown to the Jews.... the Father who was there all along in the background.

psalm 83 :[18] That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Isaiah 44:6 6“This is what the Lord says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

if jesus is Jehovah and he is revealing the father, he's doing a poor job.

sounds more like he is usurping the father

Revelation 1:8

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The NU and M manuscripts remove "the beginning and the end" and add "God" after "Almighty" which would read like this.....

"I am the Alpha and the Omega", says the Lord, "who is and was and who is to come, the Almighty God."


Now weather you read it in the NKJV context as I first posted, or read it in the Majority Text rendering, the conclusion is the same.

You stated Isaiah 44:6 which read "I am the first and I am the last" and also states "The Lord Almighty" who is "The King and redeemer of Israel." Now you may tell me that these are things God passed down to Christ but I'll just tell you that Jesus was the Jehovah who spoke those words of Isaiah 44 and then repeated them to John in Revelation 1. Each of our conclusions will continue a circular argument so I say to you we can respectfully agree to disagree. I understand your point and hopefully you understand my point. Personally, I think Dr.X needs a reality check with his idea that Jesus didn't exist until His human birth.

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

You stated Isaiah 44:6 which read "I am the first and I am the last" and also states "The Lord Almighty" who is "The King and redeemer of Israel." Now you may tell me that these are things God passed down to Christ but I'll just tell you that Jesus was the Jehovah who spoke those words of Isaiah 44 and then repeated them to John in Revelation 1. Each of our conclusions will continue a circular argument so I say to you we can respectfully agree to disagree.

loco, you are debunking your own theory.

first you are assuming that jesus is speaking in verse 8 when the verse clearly shows that its Jehovah speaking.

now saying that jehovah is jesus in revelation because in isaiah 44 jehovah is jesus is circular logic. nothing about your statement is provable.

then you say "The King and redeemer of Israel." Now you may tell me that these are things God passed down to Christ

thats not the point. you are saying that jesus is claiming to be the only True God, almighty, first and last. then in the same breath you are saying that he is pointing to his father? how?

Originally posted by miriam0566
so words like "firstborn" and "only begotten" should be ignored because thats not what the bible is saying... even though thats what it's saying.

the bible uses "firstborn" and "only begotten" because that is exactly what jesus is. he is the firstborn and only begotten creation of god.

That should be sufficient, or at least you would think so.
The person, Jesus did not exist before the Nativity.
Something did exist before that, that had the "form" of god.
Whatever that was, "became" a person, Jesus.
Jesus was "of" God, and a "fullness of god" was in him, but that is not the same as "being" God, in totality.

I think the main difference between our beliefs is that you are left with not much of an option, other than (whatever that thing was, that became Jesus) was created out of nothing. I happen to feel free enough to think that it could have been a part of God (though it is impossible to know how that works, us being mortal), thus a truly "begotten" thing.

"Firstborn" in Hebrew is not the same thing as "Firstborn" in English. In Hebrew it basically means "greatest born". David was called the "firstborn", but he was the youngest of his siblings.

These were Jews, but their terms have to be translated into English. Just an important thing to note of their culture.

"In reading any piece of literature written during a different time period, we need to make allowance for the relative terms of speech, if we are to have a proper understanding of the content. Many of the errors in the Mormon teachings on the Lord Jesus Christ have arisen because of their disregard of the customs and terms of speech used by the people living in biblical times. For instance terms of degree called "Hebraisms," were commonly used in a figurative way in order to emphasize facts more vividly. But in formulating their doctrine, the prophet and founder of the LDS church, Joseph Smith, wrongly took these terms of speech literally."

and:

""FIRSTBORN"

In biblical times the oldest son, or the "first-born," was a V.I.P. in that he was honoured and enjoyed special privileges that were not extended to any of his siblings (Deuteronomy 21:17). So it became customary to use the term "first-born" to denote pre-eminence in rank. For instance, in Exodus 4:22, God refers to the nation of Israel as His first-born, to make the point that they were honoured above all the other nations, as they were His chosen people. And in Psalm 89:27, He says of David, "I also shall make him My first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth." But David was not God's oldest child. Nor was he the first born child in his own family. He was the youngest. He wasn't even the first king of Israel, Saul was. God was merely using the term "first-born" to emphasize the point that He was going to make David the most honoured out of all the earthly kings.

Mormons use Colossians 1:15 (which says that Christ is the first-born over all creation), as proof that He was God's oldest son in a pre-existence. However, as the above scriptures have clearly illustrated, this isn't what the Hebraism "first-born," implies. In this context it has nothing to do with ancestry, but emphasizes a special status of honour and pre-eminence."

Here

The people who try and understand what Hebrews were trying to say by English dictionaries and fail miserably is in the millions.


[edit on 22-10-2009 by NOTurTypical]