Pentagon flyover witnesses reported by Center for Military History

Originally posted by GenRadek
If you could maybe supply us with other well known instances of airplane crashes where the Feds have checked all the serial number parts of the aircraft that crashed and made sure that it was the plane in question. This little game is getting a little old Tezz.

I've tried that tact. He can't and/or won't. It seems to be the Truther's only avenue of escape when they try to claim it wasn't AA77 that hit the building.

Originally posted by GenRadek
So, you are saying they should have found the wings correct?

Again, where did I state that the alleged wings would have been found in one piece?

You're really reaching for something that was not stated, GenRadek.

plus, the burden lays with you on trying to explain how it couldnt have been an AA Flight77 757 that crashed.

No, no, no... I've played the burden of proof game with jthomas lots of times and he always loses. If you believe that Flight AA77 crashed at the Pentagon, then you need to be able to prove it.

I've explained to jthomas and others, many times, that a short course in logic and proof will educate you on why claims need to be proven with evidence.

Null hypothesis: Something happened at the Pentagon.
Alternate hypothesis: Flight AA77 crashed into the Pentagon.

Without sufficient evidence to support the alternate hypothesis, it must be rejected in favour of the null hypothesis. That's the logical, scientific process.

There is no burden of proof required to show that Flight AA77 did not crash into the Pentagon.

There must be a lack of short courses in logic and proof? Maybe that's something for community colleges and adult education centres to consider implementing in future.

You'd think that all the debris inside the Pentagon matches with a 757

Which 757? You need to be able to identify it. Failure to identify it does not support the alternate hypothesis.

and the DNA from the victims on board would be enough to prove you that it was what it was. Flight 77.

DNA evidence does not identify a plane. DNA evidence only shows that some human DNA was allegedly found at the scene.

This is going off topic, so I'm not risking a Moderator warning.

Originally posted by GenRadek
If you could maybe supply us with other well known instances of airplane crashes where the Feds have checked all the serial number parts of the aircraft that crashed and made sure that it was the plane in question.

How about we start here with FDR's...

Of all major U.S. airline crashes within the U.S. investigated and published by the National Transportation Safety Board during the past 20 years, the 9/11 'black boxes' are virtually the only ones without listed serial numbers.

Comair Flight 5191, August 27, 2006, CRJ-100, 49 Dead, Fairchild Model F-1000 FDR, Serial Number: 102368
www.ntsb.gov...

Corporate Airlines Flight 5966, October 19, 2004, HP Jetstream, 13 Dead, Fairchild Model F-1000 FDR, Serial Number: 00511
www.ntsb.gov...

Pinnacle Airlines Flight 3701, October 14, 2004, CL-600-2B19, 2 Dead, Fairchild Model F-1000 FDR, Serial Model: 01094
www.ntsb.gov...

US Airways Express Flight 5481, January 8, 2003, Beechcraft 1900, 21 Dead, Fairchild Model F-1000 FDR, Serial Number: 01110
www.ntsb.gov...

American Airlines Flight 587, November 12, 2001, Airbus 300, 260 Dead, Fairchild Model FA-2100 FDR, Serial Number: 1186
www.ntsb.gov...

Alaska Airlines Flight 261, January 31, 2000, Boeing MD-83, 88 Dead, Sundstrand Model FDR, Serial Number: 9182
www.ntsb.gov...

American Airlines Flight 1420, June 1, 1999, McDonnell Douglas MD-82, 11 Dead, L3 Model FA-2100 FDR, Serial Number: 00718
www.ntsb.gov...

COMAIR Flight 3272, January 9, 1997, Empresa Brasileira de Aeronautica, 29 Dead, Loral Fairchild Model F-1000 FDR, Serial Number: 997
www.ntsb.gov...

TWA Flight 800, July 17, 1996, Boeing 747, 230 Dead, Sundstrand Model FDR, Serial Number: 10291
www.ntsb.gov...

Valu Jet Flight 592, May 11, 1996, McDonnell Douglas DC-9, 110 Dead, Loral Fairchild Model F-800 FDR, Serial Number: 6132
www.ntsb.gov...

Atlantic Southeast Airlines Flight 529, August 21, 1995, EMB-120RT, 8 Dead, Fairchild Digital Model F-800 FDR, Serial Number: 04856
www.ntsb.gov...

American Eagle Flight 4184, October 31, 1994, ATR 72, 68 Dead, Loral/Fairchild Model F-800 FDR, Serial Number: 4838
www.ntsb.gov...

US Air Flight 427, September 8, 1994, Boeing 737-300, 133 Dead, Loral/Fairchild Data Systems Model F-1000 FDR, Serial Number: 442
www.ntsb.gov...

US Air Flight 1016, July 2, 1994, McDonnell Douglas DC-9, 37 Dead, Fairchild S-703 FDR, Serial Number: 00880
amelia.db.erau.edu...

US Air Flight 405, March 22, 1992, Fokker F-28, 27 Dead, Fairchild F-800 FDR, Serial Number: 154
www.airdisaster.com...

United Airlines Flight 585, March 3, 1991, Boeing 737, 25 Dead, Fairchild Model F-800 FDR, Serial Number: 4016
amelia.db.erau.edu...

US Air Flight 1493, February 1, 1991, Boeing 737, 22 Dead, Sundstrand Model FWUS FDR, Serial Number: 692
amelia.db.erau.edu...

United Airlines Flight 232, July 19, 1989, McDonnell Douglas DC 10, 111 Dead, Sundstrand Model 573 FDR, Serial Number: 2159
www.airdisaster.com...

Need more? Let me know. Text limit per post on ATS prevent further source.

[edit on 31-1-2009 by RockHound757]

posted by GenRadek
If you could maybe supply us with other well known instances of airplane crashes where the Feds have checked all the serial number parts of the aircraft that crashed and made sure that it was the plane in question.

posted by RockHound757
How about we start here with FDR's...

Of all major U.S. airline crashes within the U.S. investigated and published by the National Transportation Safety Board during the past 20 years, the 9/11 'black boxes' are virtually the only ones without listed serial numbers.

Need more? Let me know. Text limit per post on ATS prevent further source.

So, black boxes are usually found by experienced aircraft investigators from aircraft crash scenes and serial numbers are usually verified by experienced aircraft investigators at aircraft crash scenes. Except for 9-11-2001 when NO serial numbers were verified from eight black boxes from four alleged crashed aircraft. Does anybody detect a pattern here?

So why is it you supporters of the 9-11 Pentagon OFFICIAL STORY do not demand that at least the black boxes be provided with verified serial numbers? Voice and data recorder black boxes are designed to survive. Allegedly the Flight 77 black boxes were found here near the C-Ring Exit Hole. Why no serial numbers? Why only an alleged photo of one of them? Did the FBI crash investigators run out of film?



Of course, seeing that the actual aircraft has been proven Over the Naval Annex and 300-400 feet north of the official flight path, and could not possibly have created the damage path into the Pentagon; an open-minded curious person might wonder how that flight data recorder with the sooty footprints under it, ended up there allegedly next to the Exit Hole.



And seeing that Flight 77 never came back into Virginia, and likely had not been destroyed yet; that FDR allegedly found next to the Exit Hole in the Pentagon damage area could not possibly have been from Flight 77 (tail # N644AA) could it? Now we know why no 9-11 serial numbers were provided to the world don't we? That FDR with the footprints under it (here) had to have been planted; isn't that correct? It could not have been from Flight 77, because that aircraft could not possibly have flown Over the Naval Annex, and then lined up with the OFFICIAL STORY damage path through the five light poles and the generator trailer and the entry hole and the Exit Hole.






[edit on 1/31/09 by SPreston]

Originally posted by RockHound757


Need more? Let me know.

Yes, please; could you please post the S/N for the FDR for TWA flight 800 that crashed in July 1996?

Thank you.

-CF-

www.ntsb.gov...

posted by GenRadek

Also tezz, there is one photo of a serial number, but I know you will ignore it and say it planted or something else.

You asked for a serial number you have one.

Pentagon 9/11 by Alfred Goldberg, Sarandis Papadopoulos, Diane Putney, and Nancy Berlage
(Paperback - Sep 5, 2007) Official Defense Department Production

ISBN: 9780160783289
Soft cover: 250 pages
Publisher: Historical Office - Office of Secretary of Defense (09/2007)
Language: English

Really? Mind telling us exactly what that serial number is and the proof that it is from Flight 77 Tail # N644AA? And you are correct. There is only one known photo in existence, and that photo is in the official Pentagon 9-11 book which was first released in 2007 by the Defense Department. Doesn't it seem strange that this little alleged piece of evidence was never seen by anybody before then for 6 years?



No, the words American Airlines are not serial numbers nor is the AA. What is that serial number and what makes you think that experienced aircraft crash investigators have officially logged it and verified it was from Flight 77 Tail # N644AA? Because it is in the Defense Department official Pentagon 9-11 propaganda book? And how about that grass it is sitting on. Sure does not look like Pentagon grass does it?

This is Pentagon lawn grass on the morning of 9-11 with no aircraft parts anywhere in sight


And this looks more like high quality golf course blue grass turf doesn't it?





[edit on 1/31/09 by SPreston]

reply to post by SPreston


My my my, how quick history is forgotten.
Here is from 2000 an NTSB report of a EgyptAir 767 that crashed into the ocean in 1999, FDR recovered, SERIAL NUMBER UNKNOWN.
www.ntsb.gov...

Was this a conspiracy as well?

Continental Express Flight 2574, September 11, 1991, EMB 120, 14 Dead, FDR Manufacturer, Model & Serial Number Not Available.
www.airdisaster.com...

posted by GenRadek
reply to post by SPreston

 

My my my, how quick history is forgotten.
Here is from 2000 an NTSB report of a EgyptAir 767 that crashed into the ocean in 1999, FDR recovered, SERIAL NUMBER UNKNOWN.

Upon receipt, the FDR was removed from the cooler and examined for damage. The FDR’s outer sleeve and internal electronics were subjected to impact damage. The FDR’s faceplate was partially removed from the casing; only the cable from the external equipment connector (i.e., data plug) held the faceplate to the FDR. The nameplate attached to the faceplate was missing; therefore, the unit’s serial number could not be determined. Finally, the underwater locator beacon (ULB) and ULB mount were missing from the faceplate.

Perhaps the Egyptians were not very meticulous in following regulations. And perhaps there were no other suspicious anomalies with the EgyptAir 767. Would you trust EgyptAir safety procedure anyway? Not I.

However, on 9-11 we had 4 US aircraft missing serial numbers for 8 black boxes, and there were hundreds of additional anomalies with these 4 aircraft and hundreds of pieces of evidence indicating that these 4 aircraft were not what they were supposed to be and not where they were supposed to be. And need I mention that not one other piece of aircraft, including engines, landing gear, wings, flaps, tires, wheels, seats, tail, etc. was identified by serial number, off any one of the four alleged 9-11 aircraft? No serial numbers whatsoever from Flights 11, 175, 77, and 93 including the 8 black boxes were officially identified by serial number proving the four aircraft were what they pretended to be. What an amazing coincidence. Even the decoy aircraft flying Over the Naval Annex was not proven by serial number. We had five aircraft, only one (actually two) of which did not crash (one pretended to crash in a simulation of a crash at the Pentagon), and no serial numbers whatsoever. We have no idea what those five aircraft really were or even what aircraft model. (id est 737 757 767 A-310 etc) Was the Flight 77 which landed up in Ohio or somewhere near there really Flight 77? Were Flights 11 and 175 really 11 and 175 and what aircraft replaced them?

Perhaps you fanatical supporters of the 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY are comfortable with these 'coincidences', but we more open-minded patriots are not. When treason is indicated; we demand justice and due payment for that treason; especially when it has come from our own government officials and our own military officials and our own justice officials.




[edit on 1/31/09 by SPreston]

Originally posted by SPreston


However, on 9-11 we had 4 US aircraft missing serial numbers for 8 black boxes,

Missing? Really? Because a fist full of conspiracy theorists wants S/N's you call them missing?

Did you ever read the data from the FDR from flight 77? It actually has the information of the flight on 9/11 AND the previous flight. Why would it be necessary for the S/N to be there? It was shown above that not ALL FDR S/N's are recorded.

posted by RockHound757

Need more? Let me know.

Yes, please; could you please post the S/N for the FDR for TWA flight 800 that crashed in July 1996?

Sure thing. 10291

TWA Flight 800, July 17, 1996, Boeing 747, 230 Dead, Sundstrand Model FDR, Serial Number: 10291

www.ntsb.gov...

Source

reply to post by SPreston


thank you Spreston.



[edit on 31-1-2009 by CameronFox]

Originally posted by CameronFox


"...Because a fist full of conspiracy theorists wants S/N's you call them missing?"

What a strange piece of logic.

If all the serial numbers from every piece of debris found at all the crash sites are missing, you would have to admit that it is quite strange. (If indeed this is the case)

Any open-minded person would have to admit that it is an unbelievable coincidence.

I see very few concessions from either side of this argument, which is reminiscent of political partisanship rather than open-minded inquisition.

The way I see it.

reply to post by SPreston


So is it not possible that the forces of impact may have just as well knocked off the serial number plates off the FDRs? Its not every day you have aircraft impacting large buildings at 400+mph, then having the buildings collapse onto the remaining debris. Much more turmoil ad chances for the S/N to be lost or destroyed. It is just another possibility, SPreston. Once again, if you are doing an investigation, you must investigate ALL possibilities and not cherry pick those that fit a pre-determined "idea". Either consider all or none.

Originally posted by GenRadek
reply to post by SPreston

 

So is it not possible that the forces of impact may have just as well knocked off the serial number plates off the FDRs? Its not every day you have aircraft impacting large buildings at 400+mph, then having the buildings collapse onto the remaining debris. Much more turmoil ad chances for the S/N to be lost or destroyed. It is just another possibility, SPreston. Once again, if you are doing an investigation, you must investigate ALL possibilities and not cherry pick those that fit a pre-determined "idea". Either consider all or none.

The rear of the alleged plane followed the nose of the alleged plane in remember? The blackbox is in the rear of the plane if I'm not mistaken so it would suffer even less damage, correct? So much for that line of logic....

Why are you arguing the point anyway? You are forced to believe in the fly over because you accept the Flight Data Recorder read out! The FDR has the plane too high to hit the light poles and too high to hit the Pentagon.

The official piece of evidence forces you to accept this fly over theory, not CIT or their research work. Not John Farmer and his FOIA requests.

That is exactly why there has been zero comments forthcoming from the NTSB or the FBI. In fact the NTSB passed the buck to the FBI who took poession of it because it was a criminal act. The FBI are the cover up artists and will not comment on the descrepency.

Welcome to the fly over club as brought to you first by the Federal Government and confirmed by CIT and Pilots for 9/11 Truth.

reply to post by rush969


Not all FBI agents are bad of course, but here are some examples of the FBI planting and falsifiying evidence.
proliberty.com...

www.corpus-delicti.com...

"Over the years we have been warned about the danger of subversive organizations that would threaten our liberties, subvert our system, would encourage its members to take further illegal action to advance their views, organizations that would incite and promote violence, pitting one American group against another... There is an organization that does fit those descriptions, and it is the organization, the leadership of which has been most constant in its warning to us to be on guard against such harm. The [FBI] did all of those things."
-- Sen. Philip A. Hart
Select Committee on Intelligence Activities and the Rights of Americans, 1975

www.superpatriots.us...

I could go on, but I think you get the point. It wouldn't be hard at all to plant evidence and as you can see through your diligent research, some members of the FBI do resort to this type of activity. So now you can see how the from the alleged fly over place could be placed in the Pentagon to be discovered.

But since you accept the FDR as factual evidence of the attacks, welcome to the fly over club. Never forget, the FDR as provided by the NTSB has the plane too high to hit the light poles and too high to hit the Pentagon.

reply to post by Swing Dangler


not when you have the entire aircraft entering the building. The tail goes in after, then don't forget the partial collapse of the front of the affected area. The velocity of the black box will still be the same as the aircraft's initial velocity at impact. So it will still move forward anyways.

And again, we have no explanation how the 757 debris ended up inside the Pentagon to begin with and how CIT explains how people managed to "plant" everything in front of hundreds of commuters, eyewitnesses, search & rescue teams, TV crews, first responders, etc, without anyone noticing. This is another untied string in the CIT "Flyover" fantasy.

Originally posted by GenRadek
reply to post by Swing Dangler

 

not when you have the entire aircraft entering the building. The tail goes in after, then don't forget the partial collapse of the front of the affected area. The velocity of the black box will still be the same as the aircraft's initial velocity at impact. So it will still move forward anyways.
And again, we have no explanation how the 757 debris ended up inside the Pentagon to begin with and how CIT explains how people managed to "plant" everything in front of hundreds of commuters, eyewitnesses, search & rescue teams, TV crews, first responders, etc, without anyone noticing. This is another untied string in the CIT "Flyover" fantasy.

One, the tail would have been sheered off on impact but no tail debris can be found. It certainly didn't enter the building because where the tail should have been, no identation marks of any sort can be found.

So your suggesting then the FDR did not suffer a loss of velocity upon impact? In violation of physics, correct?
We already know there are conflicting accounts about who discovered the FDR and where they discovered it. Not only that, you claim the "flyover" is a fantasy, but YOU MUST ACCEPT IF YOU ACCEPT THE ALLEGED OFFICIAL FDR. The official FDR has the plane too high to hit the light poles and too high to hit the Pentagon.
There is no way around it. Your caught accepting official evidence that proves the OCT wrong.

Secondly, you can read several accounts about anonymous individuals and 'fake' firefighters on the scene at the Pentagon. No one has any clue what they were doing there and they were all acting very strangely.
So as far as planting evidence, all these people are immediately suspect.
You can read more here:Imposters at the Pentagon

Independent contractors were operating in the area at the time, all of who would be suspect. As far as planting parts, its not that difficult in an emergency such as that.

Originally posted by Swing Dangler

Originally posted by GenRadek
reply to post by Swing Dangler

 

not when you have the entire aircraft entering the building. The tail goes in after, then don't forget the partial collapse of the front of the affected area. The velocity of the black box will still be the same as the aircraft's initial velocity at impact. So it will still move forward anyways.
And again, we have no explanation how the 757 debris ended up inside the Pentagon to begin with and how CIT explains how people managed to "plant" everything in front of hundreds of commuters, eyewitnesses, search & rescue teams, TV crews, first responders, etc, without anyone noticing. This is another untied string in the CIT "Flyover" fantasy.

One, the tail would have been sheered off on impact but no tail debris can be found. Really? You looked? How do you prove a statement like that?

It certainly didn't enter the building because where the tail should have been, no identation marks of any sort can be found. The building was made of silly putty?

So your suggesting then the FDR did not suffer a loss of velocity upon impact? In violation of physics, correct?
We already know there are conflicting accounts about who discovered the FDR and where they discovered it. Not only that, you claim the "flyover" is a fantasy, but YOU MUST ACCEPT IF YOU ACCEPT THE ALLEGED OFFICIAL FDR. The official FDR has the plane too high to hit the light poles and too high to hit the Pentagon.
There is no way around it. Your caught accepting official evidence that proves the OCT wrong.

Secondly, you can read several accounts about anonymous individuals and 'fake' firefighters on the scene at the Pentagon. No one has any clue what they were doing there and they were all acting very strangely.
So as far as planting evidence, all these people are immediately suspect. So you contend that it was possible for people to sneak around and plant plane and body parts without anyone noticing and your proof of this "theory" is that people were seen doing this?
You can read more here:Imposters at the Pentagon

Independent contractors were operating in the area at the time, all of who would be suspect. As far as planting parts, its not that difficult in an emergency such as that.

whats funny is how people accept the carnage and total destruction that occurred at the WTC from a commerical jet liner which was so intense, it brought down 2 of the most well built steel buildings in modern times.

yet we're supposed to believe that the same scenario took place at the pentagon when there's only a small hole which doesn't even fit the size of the 90 ton plane that allegedly smashed into that building at 500 mph.

the basic facts and evidence like that alone proves the entire pentagon story is a LIE.

yet cameron and his merry men here ignore that and so many other FACTS, and continue their barage of arguing, denying or evading the facts.

its truly bizarre.

while i'd like to believe they're either in denial, just plain ignorant or just lack common sense, I think the only possible explanation that truly makes sense is that these hecklers and proclaimed skeptics and OCT supporters are in fact Disinfo agents or worse, connected to the perpetrators themselves or the media who we all know are OWNED by the perps.

Originally posted by mcguyvermanoloThis assertion is the account of April Gallop, an officer who survived the blast with her baby in tow after returning to her Accounting Office position from Maternity leave.

She escaped through the 16ft in diameter hole the missile left, making her way down through the lower floors filled with debris. No Airplane, no luggage, no passengers.


Mr Thomas, you are either one naive denialist or working from your post in Langley.

Indeed!

I love the pics you've posted...

do you see any of that damage/explosion occurring at the WTC during 175's impact?

No. you see a plane MELT into steel like butter and show no explosion until AFTER its ENTERED.

rofl!

you can't have it both ways.

the entire denial of 911 being an inside job by OCT supporters is beyond pathetic and old.

is there really any point in debating people like cameron fox and zapple et al?

In my opinion, the mods should just ban these denialists and D.A.'s

isnt it obvious by now? and OLD? CIT alone has clearly proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the OCT Southern flight path was IMPOSSIBLE.

So much wasted bandwidth and ad naseum arguments and rehashing the same old debunked issues that go no where and accomplish little or nothing except waste of space on this board and more confusion for sincere objective truth seekers.

anyone else agree?

Originally posted by GenRadek
reply to post by tezzajw

 

First off:
I am surprised you are still hung up on this notion that the debris is not from an airplane or from a 757 or from Flight77. There is plenty of evidence of the landing gear, engines, parts of aircraft, etc inside to prove there was a 757 impact. Not to mention the witness accounts of watching the plane go into the building.
wtc7lies.googlepages.com...

I don't think a coroner investigating a body that was just shot to death by four bullets to the chest and one to the head with 10 witnesses who can confirm it, will go and test for diseases/stab wounds/chemicals/toxins instead as potential killers, rather than confirming it was the bullets that killed the victim.

Second. You really think that the wings should have survived in one piece on impact with the Pentagon? Really? Tezz, basic physics would explain why you are wrong. This picture gives us a good idea of what happened to the wings when they made contact with the walls of the Pentagon at speeds over 400mph:

So tezz, where did the plane go in the photo above?
Then ask yourself, what is the size of the wing in comparison to the F-4 Phantom jet. (lets not forget the jet in the picture above had solid engine parts as well and they were obliterated in the collision).