israel haters / anti semites please listen up

Originally posted by Exuberant1
reply to post by nkhoury

 

"In my opinion also I don’t find big difference between when a suicide bomber blows innocents or when a soldier drops bombs on peoples heads."

There is a difference.

When bombs are dropped - that is State-Sponsored Terrorism.

Suicide bombing is an act of desperation, and requires not Government involvement - Airstrikes one the Other hand, do require Authorization at the Highest level.

One is possibly a criminal act of resistance, The other is a War Crime according the the Nuremberg Laws...

Apples and Oranges.

State sponsored? Now answer the question of money source for Hamas arms and bombs. Where it comes from, huh?

[edit on 31-12-2008 by Ragnaros]

reply to post by Dutty_Rag


"How do you justify Israel's illegal blockade of Gaza"

God Gave it to them, silly...

They don't have to justify anything. You'd understand if you were one of God's Chosen people - which you aren't.

reply to post by plejarenentity


To that rant I say, get a life and look at your history books...

*All* relgions and people of religious beliefs have used their faith as a means of aggression, separation, segregation, hate and violence. Not just the Jews, but the Christians, the Muslims, the Hindus, etc.. No religion is without its crimes.

Also remember that after 1947 when the Jews were "relocated" into Palestine, they have since pushed them out of their own land, all with the backing of the United States.

And the reason THIS conflict is so hot is because it's happened in the 20th Century, when humanity should have learned from its past mistakes of conquering and conflict. When WW2 happen the US (ahem..*eventually*) went in. When Vietnam happen, the US went in. When Korea happened, the US went in. When Saddam happened (to Kuwait) the US went in. HOwever when the Jews were dropped into Palestine and given Palestinian land (which to the Palestinians could only be seen as a form o f invasion), it was sanctioned by the US and allied forces.

So -- why dyu *think* the Palestinians are a bit miffed with the Jews and the US and the US' allies? You think the Jews are without blame? WW2 sucked and what happened to them was terrible yes. But give it a [snip] rest already. It was 40+ years ago. No one seems to give a damn about the 20odd million that were eliminated by Stalin....



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[edit on 31-12-2008 by 12m8keall2c]

reply to post by Ragnaros


"Now answer the question of money source for Hamas arms and bombs. Where it comes from, huh? "

Tell us.

Provide sources.
(Fox News doesn't count)

This is all interesting.

The political factions of Gaza:

Hamas is listed as a terrorist group by the major powers of the world.
en.wikipedia.org...

Fatah has its fair share of attacks against Israel as well.
en.wikipedia.org...

Why did Israel attack Gaza?
www.huffingtonpost.com...
news.yahoo.com...
www.independent.co.uk...

Its fun to unravel things a little to see what's going on.

From what I've read, Israel has "walled" off Gaza (land and sea and not recently, its been going on) and is trying to force Hamas out. In return Hamas is attacking Israel for doing this. Now we have Israel counter-attacking Gaza which even though may have been done for legitamate reasons, will probably be counterproductive and incite future terrorist acts from Hamas and their friends.

Israels election is coming up and the front runner is not friendly to Hamas.

The sad part about most news is that there's the truth and then there is what is perceived. If we believe what we perceive then it eventually becomes the truth.

reply to post by wdkirk


Hamas is also the Democratically Elected Government of Palestine.

*You left that part out. But Why?

What about the 'money source' of bombs for Israel etc - both sides have their sponsors.

Also, I think in the case of suicide bombings from Gaza, especially any we see in the wake of these attacks, they too are sanctioned by the 'state' in terms of being facilitated by Hammas which we all need to remember were democratically and freely elected by the people of Gaza to make these kind of decisions on their behalf - no differently to how the Israeli or US government was elected.

I also think people need to stop citing the Geneva Convention as some kind of rule book by which the 'goodies' stick to in warfare. It's clearly not worth the paper it is written on anymore - war has changed - we don't have huge nation states anymore with well organised armies, navies and air forces which fight pitched battles, decide a winner, then shake hands, say jolly good show, exchange prisoners and clear up the wounded.

Now we have many small ill defined factions/nations - whatever you want to call the. The Taliban for example are clearly an organised faction with a political as well as military wing, who also have quite a following in terms of civilians in who's name they act. They are also limited geographically to a nation to which they have a claim (even if it is one we don't agree with or validate) - as opposed to Al Quida, which has very different foundations and fits the more classical definition of a terrorist organisation.

The same can be said for forces in Kashmir, The Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka - even FARC in Columbia. Hammas are also such an organisation with the added legitimacy of having stood and won in a democratic, internationally supervised election (the US don't even allow proper international oversight!).

When these factions - often acting as pseudo nation-states when you consider they represent civilians politically as well as standing up for them militarily - engage in warfare, they don't have armies, they arn't well matched as a force to the people they make war with. They also don't have the political leverage/equality to set terms that often acted to end the more traditional conflicts in history.

For that reason their tactics differ and they CAN'T engage in war according to the GC whether they want to or not.

I think it's fair to say that a nation (or group/faction representing a significant unique civilian population) does have a right to defend it's interests where those interests are legitimately threatened by a third party. They can't declare war and launch airstrikes etc so they use tactics such as rocket strikes, suicide bombing in order to obtain the leverage that states traditionally achieved through brute military force on the battlefield.

This in my mind is legitimate warfare - bloody, terrifying and closer to civilians than it has ever been before - but legitimate none the less.

This is warfare, not terrorism.

I think the ceasefire would have held fine if Israel hadn't insisted on illegally blockading Gaza and causing no end of suffering. Thus whoever started it is kind of irrelevant - in this instance there was peace - it was Israel who took steps to agitate and end that peace. Thus we now have a state of war - and that war may involve suicide bombers returning to Israel and likely civilian deaths. When this happens, I will lament for the dead, but I shall not condemn the Palestinians as terrorists, I shall merely sigh and move on as thus is war.

reply to post by Dutty_Rag


"This in my mind is legitimate warfare"

According to yourself and the UN, that is correct. Not to mention The Common Law and the Constitution of the US also agree with you.

Originally posted by Exuberant1

God Gave it to them, silly...

They don't have to justify anything. You'd understand if you were one of God's Chosen people - which you aren't.

Quite a statement...saying someone isnt one of God's chosen people. How are you so assured that you are not on that leave behind list? Got some email or snail mail notification proving you are on the list?

Also, where is the "God'ly" land deed that shows any land given to them?

If God was handing out land to peoples, dont you think that God in his wisdom, and kindness and forgiving nature, would make the Earth so that each of his creations would have ample land, ample supply, ample space and be happy and merry from now until doomsday?

Why doesnt God stop all this senseless killing of innocent peoples everywhere on this world he has created? Why doesnt God snap his almighty fingers and change everything so that there is tolorance and equality in this wonderful world he has created?

All of this has got nothing to do with God. It has everything to do with human intolorance, a sad but true trait in humanity that unfortunately, after countless centuries of bloodshed and conflict, has yet to learn that intolorance solves nothing.




Cheers!!!!

[edit on 31-12-2008 by RFBurns]

Originally posted by plejarenentity
Okay ive joined ats because ive read over the last few days post after post bashing those `evil sadistic israeli murderers who are for no reason pounding poor innocent gazza`

You really don't get it do you? Although Israelis have the right to live in Israel as well as the right to defend itself against threats, it has no right to prevent people from getting food and medical supplies. You think it's okay to kill more than 1000 Lebanese civilians for two soldiers who got kidnapped by Hezbollah, not Lebanese forces? I think it's very disproportional. More importantly, what did it help? Hezbollah is still growing stronger and has tripled its missile and rocket arsenal. That's the problem, not that Israelis are living in Israel.

And p-l-e-a-se, cut the crap about Jews having been treated like dogs. Black Americans have also been treated like dogs for centuries and in some cases still are, do you also support them to create a black-only state in America?

Although I am of opinion that Israelis deserve to live in Israel, I don't think they should be allowed to illegally occupy Palestinian territories, take away their rights to move freely throughout their land and take all fertile lands + water supplies.

To all of you, particularly you from the United States of Hypocrisy, let me ask you one question. Since you feel so much sorry for Israel, why shouldn't we suggest to establish a Jewish state in Texas? All American non-Jewish civilians can go and live in Dallas, we build a big fence around it and let's not allow them to move out of the city. In case they try to do so, we'll support the newly established Jewish state to bomb the crap out of them. Those Americans who refuse to leave the remaining parts of Texas should be allowed to be bullied, if they refuse to sell their house to Jews, we'll support them in setting their houses on fire or let the military destroy their houses. This would ensure peace in the Middle East.

[edit on 31-12-2008 by Mdv2]

Well firstly it isn't in the US, and as I have explained - the law governing warfare doesn't really apply to these kind of groups.

You can shout all you want about how it does, but in the real world, outside a courtroom, war has changed significantly and practically no one is 'playing by the rules' including the US for that matter. Water-boarding certainly isn't legal either - but some might regard it as necessary given the necessity to obtain information in a short period of time to avoid loss of life.

Laws are just that - laws. They don't describe what is morally legitimate or for that matter right and wrong.

If you think Hammas should 'obey the law' you go and tell them and see if they listen. It is a fallacy to have laws describing what can and can't be done during war - these might make pleasant discussion in open sessions of the UN, but in the real world, two warring nations do what they have to in order to support their cause.

It is upto the world to judge - and these judgements aren't made on the basis of laws. My judgement is that in these situations these modes of warfare are legitimate. I know many agree - which is quite amazing given most people's - including my own - views of suicide bombing for very clean cut terrorist purposes (re 9/11, 7/7/ USS Cole etc) - a few years prior to the current situation in which we find increasing numbers of the world's population represented by groups who are branded 'terrorists' by nation-states that no longer represent the best interests of their populations - and thus result in them fragmenting to form such 'terrorist' groups in the first place.

Well, since this post is directed toward me and my "ilk" I feel compelled to respond. Firstly, your history is a bit rusty. You seem to have glossed over a few not-so-minor points regarding the country of Israel - namely how it was constituted. Read up a little on that and perhaps perspective will reveal itself.

Moving forward, to the ongoing genocide perpetrated against the Palestinians... The whole notion of Israel "Defending" itself is beyond laughable. They have settled and squatted on Palestinian territory. They have relocated Palestinians into ghettos quaintly called "settlements" and have cut them off from every freedom, including food and medicine. They subject the Palestinians to "Papers Please!" all of the time. Does any of this sound familiar? Any holocaust survivors would recognize it - it is almost exactly what Hitler did to the Jews.

I could go on and on and on, but I'm tired. I am not anti-semite, I am anti-Israel. The US and the UN made a grave mistake by allowing the Jews to arbitrarily take land in the ME and settle it as a country. We are seeing the fruits of this travesty today.

Originally posted by plejarenentity
Okay ive joined ats because ive read over the last few days post after post bashing those `evil sadistic israeli murderers who are for no reason pounding poor innocent gazza`.

Now before i start... yes ive been to israel many times, i know theres many religions there from missionaries to christians to orthodox jews to people just living their lives... however ill call israel a jewish state because in general thats what it is.

etc........................

You have no idea of history - none. It is one thing to attempt to present a clear picture regarding the background to this type of situation, however another to get it wrong on almost every respect...very poor.

Here are a few basics you might want to get right......

The crusades were against islam, NOT Judaism. So right of the bat you are simply wrong.

The inquisition was waged against christians BY christians, Christians were accused of practicing Judaism, however a jew was not. You clearly have never ever read anything on either of these issues.

The extermination of jews accounted for, officialy, between 4 and 5 million souls who perished in concentration and death camps. Further there was a greater number of NON jews put to death. The official term holocaust was "invented" to refer to the jews that were put to death and expclicitly ignores the majority of those who were also put to death, gypsies, gays, anyone with physical defects, romanies, poles, etc,etc,etc..... it was the jews who were officialy reognised during this period at the expense of the majority (between 5 and 6 million) who have been completely ignored.

Further the catholics, africans, indians, chinese, slavs, australian aboriginals, american indigines, who have all suffered VASTLY greater acts of genocide and have never been recognised with the right to inflict genocide as a justifiable act due to historicial injustices.

The state of Israel never existed prior to the single act of recognition by the US in a sureptitious late nate security council meeting - further this act of recognition is affirmed by hammas and ever single arab leader and has done so for over 30 years. There is simply a request to return to the initial borders of 1967 - since this time israel has ILLEGALLY not legaly as you assert but ILLEGALLY siezed and occupied territories which the UN and almost every soveriegn or otherwise legal institution on earth considers an ongoing war crime, Israel exists as a nation acting with criminal aggression.

There are literally HUNDREDS of resolutions passed against israel outlining its criminal acts all of which have also been passed by the UN and vetoed by the US.

The position in palestine is no considered one of the worst cases of modern , deliberate genocide the systematic extermination of a people not seen since The Nazi regiemes of extermination.

Your position is profoundly ignorant, deeply misinformed and biast against a true and honest interpretation of history. It is a gravely disinegenuous act to present your position as authoritive when even the most cursory reading reveals the most superfluous insights driven by cliche, hearsay and mediocre poulist stereo-types.

MDV2 - here here - star for you.

Your story about Texas is EXACTLY what is happening in Israel/Gaza - only I think the world is now so conditioned to see Muslims in one way and 'white people' - including Israelis - in another that we just don't see this anymore.

I also agree with the comments that Israel does have a right to defend itself but the reactions now, and in Lebanon before are grossly disproportionate.

No one yet has explained to me how this situation is SOooo different to what was going on with the UK and Ireland not so long ago. That situation is MUCH better now, and not because we immediately flew over Dublin and dropped bombs killing 'terrorists' even though - as in Gaza - many of the so called terrorists had bases within civilian areas, lived amongst civilians and enjoyed the support of the majority of the civilian population in that area. And hey - look - just because we didn't do that we didn't become any weaker - we didn't submit and give them what they wanted - but we DID achieve a lasting peace and a power-sharing structure which fingers crossed seems to be working just fine.

This a MUST SEE VIDEO REGARDING PROPAGANDA AND MIDDLE EAST etc.

Award winning Journalist JOHN PILGER

Google Video Link

About John : www.johnpilger.com...

[edit on 31-12-2008 by blueyonder]

reply to post by tothetenthpower

Please tell me who your supplier is so I can get whatever it is you're smoking, snorting or shooting up...gimme some 'o dat rose-colored magic juice!

"There are diplomatic ways..." WHHHAAAAAATTTT?????!!!!?????!!!!! The only diplomacy that the Palestinians understand is the kind that involves exploding body parts. This has been a proven fact over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over............again and again and again and again!!!

The Palestinians seem to be involved in a cult of death. Their attacks are AIMED at civilians. Let me say that another way: Palestinians TARGET civilians. Now don't try to give me the sob story that the poor Palestinians don't have access to more sophisticated weaponry, so they are just trying to fight the evil oppressive Israel with what they have. BOLOGNA - You mean to tell me that the countries supplying Hamas with weapons don't have anything more 'sophisticated'??? Then what is the USA worried about? If all these terrorists have are a bunch of 'dumb' bombs that have a limited range - then the US has nothing to worry about - they can pack up their troops all over the globe and send them home - the war on terror is over! Unfortunately that is NOT the case. The Palestinians' purpose and goal is the utter destruction of Israel. They HAVE to play the 'underdog' role so that they can gain sympathy from the bleeding hearts of the world. They HAVE to be the oppressed; the ill equipped; the poor defenseless "freedom fighters'. This is also why they plant their war operations in the middle of civilian areas. They seem to enjoy civilian casualties - ON BOTH SIDES!

Give me a break! The theme of ATS is "Deny Ignorance" - relativism is the height of ignorance. To try to say that there is some kind of moral equivalence to what the Palestinians have been trying to do for the last 40 years is an exercise in moral relativism. Anyone who can honestly fall for it - has their feet firmly planted in mid-air!

The history of the Jews sounds bad on paper, but like many point out it's just one perspective, one point of view; besides, don't Jewish families own most of the publishing houses, which mean we're forced their perspective? There must have been a reason for their treatment by so many societies throughout history. Don't ya think?

Maybe the Jews in Israel should NOT be taking over more and more land from Palestine? If you look at the time-line of occupation you'll see steady growth of "Israel" acreage. Why shouldn't Palestine be upset? I know I'd be!

Originally posted by noonebutme
reply to post by plejarenentity

 

To that rant I say, get a life and look at your history books...

*All* relgions and people of religious beliefs have used their faith as a means of aggression, separation, segregation, hate and violence. Not just the Jews, but the Christians, the Muslims, the Hindus, etc.. No religion is without its crimes.

Also remember that after 1947 when the Jews were "relocated" into Palestine, they have since pushed them out of their own land, all with the backing of the United States.

And the reason THIS conflict is so hot is because it's happened in the 20th Century, when humanity should have learned from its past mistakes of conquering and conflict. When WW2 happen the US (ahem..*eventually*) went in. When Vietnam happen, the US went in. When Korea happened, the US went in. When Saddam happened (to Kuwait) the US went in. HOwever when the Jews were dropped into Palestine and given Palestinian land (which to the Palestinians could only be seen as a form o f invasion), it was sanctioned by the US and allied forces.

So -- why dyu *think* the Palestinians are a bit miffed with the Jews and the US and the US' allies? You think the Jews are without blame? WW2 sucked and what happened to them was terrible yes. But give it a [snip] rest already. It was 40+ years ago. No one seems to give a damn about the 20odd million that were eliminated by Stalin....

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 31-12-2008 by 12m8keall2c]

....all true but please remember that North Korea was a united effort as was vietnam - Australia was heavily involved in both wars and assuming it was only americans does a disservice to the huge sacrifices made by these countries in fighting for the politics of the white neighbours. Add to this kuwait, Iraq, WWII etc,etc.
Further Jews were not "dropped in" or relocated, they had been buying up land as a collective religious group in the area for a long period of time, they had always had a presence there as they did throughout the middle east and Europe, as you mentioned there was un resolution put forward which was rejected by the UN, however it was put through the security council in a late night hastily arranged session much to the chagrin of teh US. (Yes the US originally opposed the state, and for a long time was very indifferent to it - it was really only much later as a the US sought a greated influence in the area that it sought to exert itself via the israeli state as a proxy power).

As much as the actions of the Israelis sickens me to my core, it is important to maintain reality and not fall victim to the same style of propaganda which clouds the Zionist mindset and dictum.

It's called the Fed, not 'luck'

Originally posted by plejarenentity

Look around the middle east almost every country there hates israel, and would rip it apart like angry wolves if they could, its only because america is on its side that israel has the `luck` of still surviving!