It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Real Ufos In Mexico Disclosure By Air Force
page: 2share:
reply to post by free_spirit
If you want to confirm my identity, contact me through my website. But for the record I am the executive director of NARCAP.
Be advised that Dr Haines and I were in Mexico city prior to the release of the Cantrell Oil Flare case. We met with a number of officials including representatives of the UN ICAO. In the process we were advised by a third pary, an air controller whose name I will not state here, about the specifics of the case in question I knew about it prior to the big SEDENA meeting on it. That would be prior to May 4, 2004.
We, as in NARCAP were asked if we could attend the press conference in question and I spent a good deal of time on the phone with the air controller in question, going through the efforts I described in the previous email. Calling me a liar is not appropriate since you do not know all the facts regarding my involvement.
We never met with Jaime Maussan. Ruben Uriartte, NARCAP advisor and Spanish speaker assisted in managing the communications between the three of us. You can contact him, he is the Northern Cal MUFON director...ask him about it.
This was difficult for me because we flew back to the States iat the end of the first week of May and we woud have had to turn around and fly back with only two days notice.
Again, we were not provided materials until after the conference and those materials were incomplete....
Your claims regarding our desire to be part of this case are vastly overblown. We have many better cases to work than this one.
I invite interested researchers to take a look at Capt Franz site and the work he did on this case and decide for themselves since the actual data has never left Mexico, as far as I can tellm and is not available in its complete and raw form. We did attempt a secondary analysis and were satisfied that the asimuth, heading and altitude were prime indicators of where the camera was pointed. None of the crew, except the FLIR operator saw the targets and thats all there is to it.
Attacking me and calling me a liar when I know damn well what happened won't prove anything....this case is worthless and there are far better ones to be arguing about.
If you want to confirm my identity, contact me through my website. But for the record I am the executive director of NARCAP.
Be advised that Dr Haines and I were in Mexico city prior to the release of the Cantrell Oil Flare case. We met with a number of officials including representatives of the UN ICAO. In the process we were advised by a third pary, an air controller whose name I will not state here, about the specifics of the case in question I knew about it prior to the big SEDENA meeting on it. That would be prior to May 4, 2004.
We, as in NARCAP were asked if we could attend the press conference in question and I spent a good deal of time on the phone with the air controller in question, going through the efforts I described in the previous email. Calling me a liar is not appropriate since you do not know all the facts regarding my involvement.
We never met with Jaime Maussan. Ruben Uriartte, NARCAP advisor and Spanish speaker assisted in managing the communications between the three of us. You can contact him, he is the Northern Cal MUFON director...ask him about it.
This was difficult for me because we flew back to the States iat the end of the first week of May and we woud have had to turn around and fly back with only two days notice.
Again, we were not provided materials until after the conference and those materials were incomplete....
Your claims regarding our desire to be part of this case are vastly overblown. We have many better cases to work than this one.
I invite interested researchers to take a look at Capt Franz site and the work he did on this case and decide for themselves since the actual data has never left Mexico, as far as I can tellm and is not available in its complete and raw form. We did attempt a secondary analysis and were satisfied that the asimuth, heading and altitude were prime indicators of where the camera was pointed. None of the crew, except the FLIR operator saw the targets and thats all there is to it.
Attacking me and calling me a liar when I know damn well what happened won't prove anything....this case is worthless and there are far better ones to be arguing about.
reply to post by free_spirit
"When Secretary of Defense General Ricardo Vega decided it was time to get advice from the civil UFO research and later decided to disclose the incident to the world both Ted Roe and Dr. Haines reacted surprised, dissapointed and upset, how was it posible that NARCAP was not choosen for the historic release not even taken in count. They still think NARCAP is the ultimate organization to validate any major UFO incident in the world involving aircraft. They are wrong obviously.
Despite that both Dr. Richard and Ted Roe were invited to colaborate in the civil investigation joining forces with the DOD and the Air Force to find out what really happened on the Campeche air space that day. They were invited by the mexican research team along with other respected researchers of the world. Richard Haines and Ted Roe rejected the invitation claiming it was not properly made at the proper time that is obviously directly by the DOD. As a result of their dissapointment Ted
Roe and Richard Haines decided to align themselves with the skeptic force wich was a surprisingly historic precedent for NARCAP but it was just a retaliation for the motives exposed. I define this response by them as simple conflict of interest.
I know Ted Roe and is a good friend of mine. I respect Dr. Richard Haines also and both of them have made important things in the past. However this response of them is a classic conflict of interest like so many we see everyday in the ufologic communities. These are real facts and I can prove it, I have emails with Ted Roe about the Campeche UFO incident and also testimonials from mexican sources. Therefore NARCAP did'nt debunk anything at all, did'nt prove anything and just showed their frustration wich is now a mark in their historial. "
I don't know who your are, free_spirit, but you claim to be a friend of mine while making the most ridiculous comments. We knew about this case before the big SEDENA meeting on it in April. We had been told about it by other Mexican researchers who were directly involved. It was those people who advised us of the conference and it was through them that we coordinated our discussion about involvement in the conference.
I turn down media opps all the time and your assertions about our need to be involved in this case are beuond fantasy. The fact is that the data in this case is very thin and poorly documented. But even more importantly, we don't work on International cases. We only work on US cases - with the exception of cases that Dr. Haines takes a personal interest in. That is why we have an International Tech Advisor group and that is why we were in Mexico City meeting with the UN ICAO reps and putting out feelers to see if Mexican researchers were interested in setting up a coordinated research program focusing on aviation cases involving aviation safety issues.
The fact is that we are only interested in cases involving aviation safety and this case has nothing to do with that... read our website sometime...
So, since you claim to be a friend of mine, who are you?
"When Secretary of Defense General Ricardo Vega decided it was time to get advice from the civil UFO research and later decided to disclose the incident to the world both Ted Roe and Dr. Haines reacted surprised, dissapointed and upset, how was it posible that NARCAP was not choosen for the historic release not even taken in count. They still think NARCAP is the ultimate organization to validate any major UFO incident in the world involving aircraft. They are wrong obviously.
Despite that both Dr. Richard and Ted Roe were invited to colaborate in the civil investigation joining forces with the DOD and the Air Force to find out what really happened on the Campeche air space that day. They were invited by the mexican research team along with other respected researchers of the world. Richard Haines and Ted Roe rejected the invitation claiming it was not properly made at the proper time that is obviously directly by the DOD. As a result of their dissapointment Ted
Roe and Richard Haines decided to align themselves with the skeptic force wich was a surprisingly historic precedent for NARCAP but it was just a retaliation for the motives exposed. I define this response by them as simple conflict of interest.
I know Ted Roe and is a good friend of mine. I respect Dr. Richard Haines also and both of them have made important things in the past. However this response of them is a classic conflict of interest like so many we see everyday in the ufologic communities. These are real facts and I can prove it, I have emails with Ted Roe about the Campeche UFO incident and also testimonials from mexican sources. Therefore NARCAP did'nt debunk anything at all, did'nt prove anything and just showed their frustration wich is now a mark in their historial. "
I don't know who your are, free_spirit, but you claim to be a friend of mine while making the most ridiculous comments. We knew about this case before the big SEDENA meeting on it in April. We had been told about it by other Mexican researchers who were directly involved. It was those people who advised us of the conference and it was through them that we coordinated our discussion about involvement in the conference.
I turn down media opps all the time and your assertions about our need to be involved in this case are beuond fantasy. The fact is that the data in this case is very thin and poorly documented. But even more importantly, we don't work on International cases. We only work on US cases - with the exception of cases that Dr. Haines takes a personal interest in. That is why we have an International Tech Advisor group and that is why we were in Mexico City meeting with the UN ICAO reps and putting out feelers to see if Mexican researchers were interested in setting up a coordinated research program focusing on aviation cases involving aviation safety issues.
The fact is that we are only interested in cases involving aviation safety and this case has nothing to do with that... read our website sometime...
So, since you claim to be a friend of mine, who are you?
reply to post by free_spirit
"I will answer to that. Both Ted Roe and Richard Haines were very upset with the mexican Air Force, the DOD and the Secretary of Defense because NARCAP was not invited nor even taken in count when this disclosure was decided. Just before the disclosure took place Ted Roe was in Mexico City attending some important reunions with airline pilots, air traffic controllers and some military also. Nobody told Ted Roe about the Campeche UFO incident and the imminent disclosure by the DOD and it was because nobody of them knew about this incident, it was being kept classified and secret by the Air Force and the DOD while doing their
own invesigation.
When Secretary of Defense General Ricardo Vega decided it was time to get advice from the civil UFO research and later decided to disclose the incident to the world both Ted Roe and Dr. Haines reacted surprised, dissapointed and upset, how was it posible that NARCAP was not choosen for the historic release not even taken in count. They still think NARCAP is the ultimate organization to validate any major UFO incident in the world involving aircraft. They are wrong obviously. "
Dr. Haines and I were very upset...!? Where the hell did you get that idea? You act like you were right in the middle of it and claim to be my good friend and then you spout unmitigated nonsense. The last thing we wanted to do was get caught up in a case that is far outside the NARCAP mission statement. In fact, our materials and our program were presented to SEDENA and were well recieved. That was more than adequate for our involvement given the case was not American and did not invovle aviation safety.
Our secondary goal while in Mexico, and you should know this my good friend, was to encourage Mexican researchers to engage aviation safety cases involving UAP in a manner that would allow us to share data across the region and gain information helpful to all of us. We have a Canadian NARCAP and a similar, independent org in Mexico that used the same general standards could allow all of us to collect data across the region and perhaps really get a better picture of the best type of trace evidence case possible. Cases involving radar, em effects on aircraft, crm, etc....
We knew about this case in April of 2004. We knew about it at the big "secret" SEDENA meeting.... the fact is, and you can read our website if you have any doubts, we are interested in American aviaiton safety cases involving UAP and nothing else. Period, end of story. This case had nothing to do with aviation safety.
You have no idea why we were in Mexico City other than what I have told you. You claim to be a good friend of mine but you don't seem to know a thing about me or NARCAP or our involvement in this case. Further, your defamation of Captain Franz because of his rigorous engagement of UAP cases is inappropriate considering that he has seen UAP himself and is only seeking to put the false cases to rest so that the bonafide ones will recieve the attention they deserve.
So you claim to be a friend of mine and you present clearly false information, call me a liar, defame Dr. Haines, Capt Framz. NARCAP and myself and worse, at the same time... Let me invite you to contact me through the NARCAP website and we can continue this discussion. I will be happy to review the relevent aspects of our chat with the list.... you won't mind, since we are good friends and all....
[edit on 7-1-2009 by 1deepstar]
[edit on 7-1-2009 by 1deepstar]
[edit on 7-1-2009 by 1deepstar]
"I will answer to that. Both Ted Roe and Richard Haines were very upset with the mexican Air Force, the DOD and the Secretary of Defense because NARCAP was not invited nor even taken in count when this disclosure was decided. Just before the disclosure took place Ted Roe was in Mexico City attending some important reunions with airline pilots, air traffic controllers and some military also. Nobody told Ted Roe about the Campeche UFO incident and the imminent disclosure by the DOD and it was because nobody of them knew about this incident, it was being kept classified and secret by the Air Force and the DOD while doing their
own invesigation.
When Secretary of Defense General Ricardo Vega decided it was time to get advice from the civil UFO research and later decided to disclose the incident to the world both Ted Roe and Dr. Haines reacted surprised, dissapointed and upset, how was it posible that NARCAP was not choosen for the historic release not even taken in count. They still think NARCAP is the ultimate organization to validate any major UFO incident in the world involving aircraft. They are wrong obviously. "
Dr. Haines and I were very upset...!? Where the hell did you get that idea? You act like you were right in the middle of it and claim to be my good friend and then you spout unmitigated nonsense. The last thing we wanted to do was get caught up in a case that is far outside the NARCAP mission statement. In fact, our materials and our program were presented to SEDENA and were well recieved. That was more than adequate for our involvement given the case was not American and did not invovle aviation safety.
Our secondary goal while in Mexico, and you should know this my good friend, was to encourage Mexican researchers to engage aviation safety cases involving UAP in a manner that would allow us to share data across the region and gain information helpful to all of us. We have a Canadian NARCAP and a similar, independent org in Mexico that used the same general standards could allow all of us to collect data across the region and perhaps really get a better picture of the best type of trace evidence case possible. Cases involving radar, em effects on aircraft, crm, etc....
We knew about this case in April of 2004. We knew about it at the big "secret" SEDENA meeting.... the fact is, and you can read our website if you have any doubts, we are interested in American aviaiton safety cases involving UAP and nothing else. Period, end of story. This case had nothing to do with aviation safety.
You have no idea why we were in Mexico City other than what I have told you. You claim to be a good friend of mine but you don't seem to know a thing about me or NARCAP or our involvement in this case. Further, your defamation of Captain Franz because of his rigorous engagement of UAP cases is inappropriate considering that he has seen UAP himself and is only seeking to put the false cases to rest so that the bonafide ones will recieve the attention they deserve.
So you claim to be a friend of mine and you present clearly false information, call me a liar, defame Dr. Haines, Capt Framz. NARCAP and myself and worse, at the same time... Let me invite you to contact me through the NARCAP website and we can continue this discussion. I will be happy to review the relevent aspects of our chat with the list.... you won't mind, since we are good friends and all....
[edit on 7-1-2009 by 1deepstar]
[edit on 7-1-2009 by 1deepstar]
[edit on 7-1-2009 by 1deepstar]
Originally posted by Akezzon
Is this video cam comparison accessible online?
Hello -Akezzon-
Instead of attacking the messenger (free_spirit) I choose to present the facts with enough data to expose a hoax when verifiable material and arguments are presented to demonstrate that there was a floppy investigation from Maussan's gang and the mexican military intelligence (SEDENA) who wrongly choose to deliver the FLIR video to a well known hoaxer. I have been defamed and insulted in many radio talk shows, conferences, TV programs, Web Blogs, magazines, lectures, you name it, and I understand that. When people in the UFO business feel that the apocryphal material they present to scam the audience is exposed as fake or hoax they are afraid to be exposed as hoaxers because that make them loose credibility and MONEY, so they have to do the strategic dirty work, they must annihilate and devastate the author. As they can't prove the contrary they feel frustrated and threatened, an example is already here, this fuzzy man who never talks to me directly and posts with the nickname of -free_spirit- is Santiago Yturria Garza, the Maussan's guardian, the money, image and prestige keeper. He writes against me everywhere he can, he has given me the greatest publicity I've ever dreamed of. Santiago is so funny and incoherent in his attacks against my work that people finds out more about me and my investigation results. His mistake is a result of his hate, angriness and blind fury that everybody ends visiting my site. I must say thank's to Santiago Yturria for his priceless favor.
Now lets talk about the facts of the Campeche SEDENA FLIR LIGHTS case:
I posted the oil well flames theory on may 26 of 2004 at Ufo Updates:
www.virtuallystrange.net...
Cause people can talk all they want in here, I will lean towards the "they are NOT oil fields" until I see some concrete evidence of them being flames from an oil field. So far I have never seen any evidence at all. That either prove or disprove these lights to be flames on an oil field.
LIST OF 154 PICTURES FROM THE OIL WELLS APRIL 14 2005:
www.alcione.org...
I recorded many videos showing the oil wells at different angles and matching the same lights, more than 150 SATELLITE and oil wells images showing the exact location where the FLIR's camera was pointing during the C26A infrared lights sighting flight path, the facts are at your disposal at ALCIONE- www.alcione.org...
Cantarell experiment april 14-2005:
www.youtube.com...
I did a recreation flight in 2006 and recorded this videos (soon in english):
1.- www.youtube.com...
2.- www.youtube.com...
All I have ever seen so far is how people "know".
They type down and post stuff here where they claim to "know" and have seen materials where it is been proven to be oil fields.
-UFO's or simply Oil Well Gas flames? PART I
www.alcione.org...
-Mexican Air Force FLIR's video lights are not UFO's,
-they are oil well gas flames! PART II
www.alcione.org...
-March 05, 2004 Mexican Air Force C26A FLIR's video on board
-communications transcription and translation showing evidence
-in pilot's words about RADAR failures.
www.alcione.org...
Well, until I've seen these materials myself I have made a choice of belief.
And my choice of belief are based on what I WANT to believe.
So I put my belief in the "They are NOT oil fielfields" box, for for now...
See Tim Printy's site with SEDENA's case data:
UFOs appear in Mexico (again)!
home.comcast.net...
Regards- Capt. Alejandro Franz
[edit on 9-8-2009 by alfafox]
reply to post by Akezzon
Hello -Akezzon-
Instead of attacking the messenger (free_spirit) I choose to present the facts with enough data to expose a hoax. With my verifiable material and arguments you can see there was a floppy investigation from Maussan's gang and the mexican military intelligence (SEDENA) who wrongly choose to deliver the FLIR video to a proved hoaxer. I have been defamed and insulted in many radio talk shows, conferences, TV programs, Web Blogs, magazines, lectures, you name it, and I understand that. When the UFO business people feel that the apocryphal material they present to scam the audience is exposed they are afraid to be exposed as hoaxers because that make them loose credibility and MONEY, they have to do the dirty work, they must annihilate and devastate the author. As they can't prove the contrary in this case they feel frustrated and threatened, an example is already here, this man who never talks to me directly and who posts with the nickname of (free_spirit) is Santiago Yturria Garza, the Maussan's guardian, the money, image and prestige keeper. He writes against me everywhere he can, he has given me the greatest publicity I've never dreamed of. Santiago is so funny and incoherent in his attacks against my work that people finds out more about me and my investigation results. His mistake is a result of his hate, angriness and blind fury that everybody ends visiting my site. I must say thank's to Santiago Yturria for his priceless favor. His words against my facts.
Lets talk about the facts of the Campeche SEDENA FLIR LIGHTS case:
I posted the oil well flames theory on may 26 of 2004 at Ufo Updates:
www.virtuallystrange.net...
LIST OF 154 PICTURES FROM THE OIL WELLS APRIL 14 2005:
www.alcione.org...
I recorded many videos showing the oil wells at different angles and matching the same lights, more than 150 SATELLITE and oil wells images showing the exact location where the FLIR's camera was pointing during the C26A infrared lights sighting flight path, the facts are at:
ALCIONE- www.alcione.org...
Cantarell experiment april 14-2005:
www.youtube.com...
I did a recreation flight in 2006 and recorded this videos (soon in english):
1.- www.youtube.com...
2.- www.youtube.com...
-UFO's or simply Oil Well Gas flames? PART I
www.alcione.org...
-Mexican Air Force FLIR's video lights are not UFO's,
-they are oil well gas flames! PART II
www.alcione.org...
March 05, 2004 Mexican Air Force C26A FLIR's video on board
communications transcription and translation showing evidence
in pilot's words about RADAR failures.
www.alcione.org...
Tim Printy's page with SEDENA's FLIR case data:
UFOs appear in Mexico (again)!
home.comcast.net...
Regards- Capt. Alejandro Franz
Is this video cam comparison accessible online?
Hello -Akezzon-
Instead of attacking the messenger (free_spirit) I choose to present the facts with enough data to expose a hoax. With my verifiable material and arguments you can see there was a floppy investigation from Maussan's gang and the mexican military intelligence (SEDENA) who wrongly choose to deliver the FLIR video to a proved hoaxer. I have been defamed and insulted in many radio talk shows, conferences, TV programs, Web Blogs, magazines, lectures, you name it, and I understand that. When the UFO business people feel that the apocryphal material they present to scam the audience is exposed they are afraid to be exposed as hoaxers because that make them loose credibility and MONEY, they have to do the dirty work, they must annihilate and devastate the author. As they can't prove the contrary in this case they feel frustrated and threatened, an example is already here, this man who never talks to me directly and who posts with the nickname of (free_spirit) is Santiago Yturria Garza, the Maussan's guardian, the money, image and prestige keeper. He writes against me everywhere he can, he has given me the greatest publicity I've never dreamed of. Santiago is so funny and incoherent in his attacks against my work that people finds out more about me and my investigation results. His mistake is a result of his hate, angriness and blind fury that everybody ends visiting my site. I must say thank's to Santiago Yturria for his priceless favor. His words against my facts.
Lets talk about the facts of the Campeche SEDENA FLIR LIGHTS case:
I posted the oil well flames theory on may 26 of 2004 at Ufo Updates:
www.virtuallystrange.net...
Cause people can talk all they want in here, I will lean towards the "they are NOT oil fields" until I see some concrete evidence of them being flames from an oil field. So far I have never seen any evidence at all. That either prove or disprove these lights to be flames on an oil field.
LIST OF 154 PICTURES FROM THE OIL WELLS APRIL 14 2005:
www.alcione.org...
I recorded many videos showing the oil wells at different angles and matching the same lights, more than 150 SATELLITE and oil wells images showing the exact location where the FLIR's camera was pointing during the C26A infrared lights sighting flight path, the facts are at:
ALCIONE- www.alcione.org...
Cantarell experiment april 14-2005:
www.youtube.com...
I did a recreation flight in 2006 and recorded this videos (soon in english):
1.- www.youtube.com...
2.- www.youtube.com...
All I have ever seen so far is how people "know".
They type down and post stuff here where they claim to "know" and have seen materials where it is been proven to be oil fields.
-UFO's or simply Oil Well Gas flames? PART I
www.alcione.org...
-Mexican Air Force FLIR's video lights are not UFO's,
-they are oil well gas flames! PART II
www.alcione.org...
March 05, 2004 Mexican Air Force C26A FLIR's video on board
communications transcription and translation showing evidence
in pilot's words about RADAR failures.
www.alcione.org...
Well, until I've seen these materials myself I have made a choice of belief.
And my choice of belief are based on what I WANT to believe.
So I put my belief in the "They are NOT oil fielfields" box, for for now...
Tim Printy's page with SEDENA's FLIR case data:
UFOs appear in Mexico (again)!
home.comcast.net...
Regards- Capt. Alejandro Franz
new topics
-
Squirrels becoming predators
Fragile Earth: 4 minutes ago -
Labour's Anti-Corruption Minister Named in Bangladesh Corruption Court Papers
Regional Politics: 55 minutes ago -
Have you noticed?? Post Election news coverage...
World War Three: 1 hours ago -
Georgia appeals court disqualifies DA Fani Willis from Trump election interference case
US Political Madness: 3 hours ago
top topics
-
Georgia appeals court disqualifies DA Fani Willis from Trump election interference case
US Political Madness: 3 hours ago, 21 flags -
Matt Gaetz ready to go global thermonuclear
US Political Madness: 17 hours ago, 17 flags -
Research paper about plasmoids specifically calls out missing MH370 flight
General Conspiracies: 17 hours ago, 7 flags -
My personal experiences and understanding of orbs
Aliens and UFOs: 16 hours ago, 7 flags -
Have you noticed?? Post Election news coverage...
World War Three: 1 hours ago, 6 flags -
Labour's Anti-Corruption Minister Named in Bangladesh Corruption Court Papers
Regional Politics: 55 minutes ago, 1 flags -
Squirrels becoming predators
Fragile Earth: 4 minutes ago, 1 flags