Russia says to halt weapons if U.S. drops shield

reply to post by LeaderOfProgress

So you're all for the Mexicans having a missile shield on the Mexican-American Border? Since the USA isn't planning to start a war with Mexico you wouldn't mind, would you?!?

Originally posted by maloy
I think this message may be aimed at Obama and his new administration. Hopefully it opens up more opportunity for dialogue and cooperation between US and Russia.

The "some strategic weapons" Russia is alluding to here are the new ICBMs Russia has been testing recently (such as submarine-launched Bulava). Russia clearly indicated several years ago that these missiles would be developed as a response, should US go ahead with its ABM system plans for Eastern Europe. Now it is just letting US know that it is not too late to reverse the process, and restore status quo.

In my opinion the ABM system in Europe is an idiotic idea that highly destabilizing. US can focus its money and resources on more important things - such as fixing its economy. Russia is also reluctant to waste money on new ICBMs, but feels like it has no other choice given US' actions.

This has gone far enough already. The two sides tested each other for a bit, but no one needs a Cold War, except for maybe some american defense contractors. It is a stretch, but there may be slim hope in the new US Presidential administration.

All US needs to do is follow up Russia's proposal by saying that it is willing to make agreements that will satisfy all parties involved. And that will not be a sign a weakness - it will be a sign of common sense prevailing.

Originally posted by wolf241e
So I guess that this proves that Russia is not up to snuff as of yet.

You make it seem as if modern international politics are a boxing match, where any attempt to solve things other than with weapons is to be perceived as weakness. Well we are not in the 18th century anymore, nor are we in the Cold War era. If US or Americans want to pretend that they are in a boxing match - more power to you.

If US doesn't want dialogue, it should stop whinning every time Russia tests a new missile or sends its ships on global exercises.

Originally posted by wolf241e
All of there posturing and live fire excersizes have amounted to trying to get the US to blink.

International politics are a bit more complex than a simple staring contest.

Originally posted by wolf241e
Russia has clearly shown that they have no answer for the purposed missile shield.

No Russia has clearly shown that it does not wish to waste tons of money and resources on another senseless Cold War, but if US persists with its agressive foreign policy Russia is ready to stand ground.

Russia has an answer, it just doesn't want to have to rely on it. And when it does rely on it - and develop new ICBMs and reactivate its advanced MIRVs such as R-36 - US will start whinning that Russia is being aggressive.

So, pretty much anything Russia does is going to be perceived either as an act of weakness or an act of aggression by the US. There is no satisfying some people.

Originally posted by wolf241e
It kinda reminds me of Khrushchev banging his shoe in the UN all of those years ago!! "Communism is they wave of the future" and "We will take America without a shot"!!

Mind pointing out what Communism has to do with current events? Communism ended in Russia in 1991, and never came back. In fact you may notice that USSR no longer exists.

Originally posted by wolf241e
To quote the late, great Sam Kinison....Blow it out your dead Russian A##!

Nice. Anymore irrelevant quotes? But hey - if this makes you feel strong and mighty - more power to you. If you take pride in your country's aggressive and unyielding foreign policy - great for you. Don't mind the rest of the world that has moved on from this sort of behavior.

[edit on 19-12-2008 by maloy]

Maloy,

All Americans are not gun toting cowboys with a chip on our shoulder.

A lot of us want nothing but peace and I just wanted to say that I agree with alot of what you wrote. I don't think this is a backing down of any sort by Russia. I think it is a breath of fresh air into a situation brought about by incompetence.

I've never understood why Russia and the U.S. have not sought to strengthen their ties after the Cold War ended. An allied Russia/US would help the world greatly I think.

Maybe I will see that one day... that is my hope anyway.



[edit on 7/3/2008 by blackbox]

Originally posted by blackbox
All Americans are not gun toting cowboys with a chip on our shoulder.

I never said that all are, and I am sure most aren't. I was posting my reply to those that have this bravado attitude on these boards. However it does appear that the outgoing US presidential administration fits the bill - so I am commenting on general US foreign policy strategy.

Originally posted by blackbox
An allied Russia/US would help the world greatly I think.

Well things were going fairly good untill US intervened in Kosovo. At that point Russia understood that any such partnership would not be on equal terms, and US would still dominate and ignore outside opinion. US' attack on Serbia was a major breaking point for any cooperation between US and Russia. The War on Terror didn't help things either with the "You are either with us or against us" attitude.

I'm pretty sure the European NMD base plans are going to be shelved anyway - they serve no purpose except to annoy the Russians and metaphorically wave our junk in their faces.

Plus, the Polish & Czech populations are opposed to them about 2:1, and they're ridiculously expensive for the limited capability they offer.

The idea that they're there to "defend against Iran" is comical to anyone who can look at a map or a globe.

The Russians are simply trying to offer a face-saving way for Obama to ditch them.

This is good news IMO.

The decaying Russian military took this opportunity to convince Kremlin that the anti-missile shield in Europe poses a threat to Russian national security, even though some professionals within the military waved off the system a year ago.

Senior US, NATO and Russian officials were also discussing the plans during talks at NATO headquarters in Brussels on Thursday.

However Russian Air Force chief Vladimir Mikhailov on Thursday played down the missile shield's potential threat to Russia.

"These systems don't provide any particular danger to us.... They have more political weight than military," he said, Interfax reported. "If they have money and nothing else to do with it, let them build it."

The end of the cold war was a bad news for General Electric and other government contractors who love to design and build fancy and expensive weapons systems.

Nikita Khruschev was so wrong when he said, "We will bury you." The USA will burry itself under the weight of its national debt -- it's just a matter of time.

Originally posted by stander
The decaying Russian military took this opportunity to convince Kremlin that the anti-missile shield in Europe poses a threat to Russian national security, even though some professionals within the military waved off the system a year ago.

The Russian military orders and defense contracting does not work the same as in the US - don't confuse the two. The Russian military would not gain anything from spreading rumors on the ABM system - it needs the money elsewhere. And Russia does not have a military-industrial complex on the level that US does. Much of the defense industry is owned by the deferal government. There isn't really much profit potential for Russian contractors if they are selling to the government.

Plus the Russian military is more closely controlled by the government - and is not lobbied by outside corporations. In US the Pentagon/Defense Contractors and the Legislative/Executive branches are two distinct entities. It is not so in Russia. So there is no reason for the military to lie to the government - if they are one and the same.

[edit on 19-12-2008 by maloy]

reply to post by maloy

I see that you are not familiar with the history of the Soviet Union that was ruled by the military since 1917 via civilian government. Wasn't it coincidental that Brezhnev replaced Khruschev after the Cuban Missile Crisis that was humiliating event to the Russian military? It was Brezhnev who wowed that Russia would never blink if similar crisis re-occurs. He made good on his promises, armed the country to its teeth and showed the Yanks the finger anytime he and the generals pleased -- wrecking the economy in the process. Have you ever heard the word "perestroika?"

If you were a colonel in the Soviet army, you were somebody. After the collapse of communism, those colonels were held responsible for the empty stores in the Soviet Union during the 1980s by the public. The Russian military man wants his prestige back as it used to be and Dick Cheney extended his helping hand. He does understand the Russian mentality and played the cards well.

Washington has tried to ease Russia's fears about the planned missile shield by offering to share the system's threat warnings and otherwise cooperate.

Ivanov held firm to Russia's criticism of the shield, however, saying: "We cannot understand what Eastern Europe needs this system for."

Unfortunately, Russians are not considered the brightest of all human species: Ivanov just couldn't (or didn't want to) properly translate the cooperation offered by Washington: Eastern Europe doesn't really need the shield; General Electric that pays for our election expenses does. We can't tell you that in plain language.

Originally posted by Aldolas
reply to post by LeaderOfProgress

 

So you're all for the Mexicans having a missile shield on the Mexican-American Border? Since the USA isn't planning to start a war with Mexico you wouldn't mind, would you?!?

Could care less if they did. What harm is it? The shield isn't a multitude of missles pointed at any city. They aren't MLRS systems. They just shoot down missles. Your logic is flawed in thinking russia hasn't prepared for war with us. I am not sure what made us want to put the shield up, who is? All I am saying is there is always more to the story. Find the rest of it before you take off slandering the US or Russia.

Where is all this 'them and us' mentality coming from? This is about two Super Powers trying to find a balance of policies of two very different countries so that any future misunderstandings between them wont automatically send them and the rest of the world to a brink of war. PERIOD.

Originally posted by Freelancer
Where is all this 'them and us' mentality coming from? This is about two Super Powers trying to find a balance of policies of two very different countries so that any future misunderstandings between them wont automatically send them and the rest of the world to a brink of war. PERIOD.

There was no word on resolving any strategic imbalance in Europe prior the installation of the shield, was it? The way you see the world turning is like watching "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs."

Both the US and Russia have maintained an understanding since the end of WWII and before, during and after the cold war, and after the collapse of the Soviet Union system.....its called M.A.D...Mutually Assured Destrcution.

Rest assured, that understanding, and ability of both sides, is alive and well and intact, dispite the so called "nuclear arms reduction treaty" signed by both sides.

There is still plenty of capability to destroy the entire planet several times over and a few extras for good measure.

Russian defense systems are just as complex and sophisticated as the US systems. And both are quite capable of doing what they are designed to do.

The only thing the world will see is little pitty conflicts in smaller 3rd world nations that both sides have in their line of ducklings. Its like both have a huge momma duck and the little defenseless nations each side supports is where the conflicts occur. There is no way that the super powers would be willing to "test" the other side's ability of M.A.D...because each side can, and will...hence the end of everything.




Cheers!!!!

reply to post by Aldolas


Everyone knows as soon as Iran gets nukes, they will turn them towards Israel, and there you go, we are in war defending Israel. Iran has made it very clear they want to destroy Israel and the US.

And who supports Iran in their efforts to become a country with nukes? Well, Russia, of course. I fear we must always be on our guard where Russia is concerned. History shows us that.


Just some thoughts,
Grandma

Originally posted by stander
The decaying Russian military took this opportunity to convince Kremlin that the anti-missile shield in Europe poses a threat to Russian national security, even though some professionals within the military waved off the system a year ago.

Senior US, NATO and Russian officials were also discussing the plans during talks at NATO headquarters in Brussels on Thursday.

However Russian Air Force chief Vladimir Mikhailov on Thursday played down the missile shield's potential threat to Russia.

"These systems don't provide any particular danger to us.... They have more political weight than military," he said, Interfax reported. "If they have money and nothing else to do with it, let them build it."

The end of the cold war was a bad news for General Electric and other government contractors who love to design and build fancy and expensive weapons systems.

Nikita Khruschev was so wrong when he said, "We will bury you." The USA will burry itself under the weight of its national debt -- it's just a matter of time.

reply to post by Grandma


I agree with what I had quoted in the last post. I am still learning how to do this.


Peace,
Grandma