Christians Versus Scientists Conspiracy

It is apparent to me having been on ATS for a number of years that there seems to be a misconception about a particular job and a certain belief. Many people seem to believe that you can either be a Scientist or a Christian, but not both. The revelation of this not being the case was a corporate position in one of the world's largest chemical/engineering companies. With Biology degree in hand, I started working as a biochemist with a team of persons I'd never met before. Having worked in two banks and thinking that God is a taboo subject at the workplace, I thought it best to use my ears much more than my mouth. Some months later I'd discovered either by coversation or just photos/items on their desks that that they were Christian. About half of the team of thirty I'm certain of, maybe a few more are and some I'm reasonably confident aren't. I couldn't help but wonder then how it came about that Christians are versus Scientists, but I was glad to find out this isn't the case and no one here (myself included) have collision issues between the two. In addition, I found out that many people on team really enjoy a good debate on the subject of beliefs, politics, and sports.

[edit on 16-12-2008 by saint4God]

Great to hear.

Unfortunatley it wasn't the case for me. I'm an audio engineer and not a scientist but they both require extensive knowledge if you want the job to get done.

I'm a devout Christian.

I was hired by a church.
Now it was a fairly large church, second largest in the USA of its paticular denomination, tp be more clear.

I thought "Great, I love working for churches."

I was not expecting what was in store for me.

Pornography, Blasphemy, Hypocrasy, Sexual Perversions,
Drinking, Cursing, Betraying, the list goes on.

To this day I think I was the only Christian on staff.

It was a really, really, reaallly, tough place.
My biblical views were laughed at and I was always spat on by the head guys because I refused to follow their behaviour.

But God got me out.

Now I also know of christian scientists who went into the same enviorment in their field. I cant even start to describe what they went through.



[edit on 18-12-2008 by n0b0DY]

Great topic, and one that very much needs to be discussed!

I've seen it on both sides, and it is very irritating. Atheists claiming that belief in God is unscientific and thus theists are unscientific and cannot be scientists, and then the theists actually responding in terms of attacking science (science is evil, science is against God, etc)!

It is very disappointing, especially since such a weird debate shouldn't even pop up! There is no logical reason that there should be any line drawn between science and religion. In fact, if you ask me, being a theist would actually be a pretty good basis for being a scientist, in that a person would want to understand and experience this incredible world we live in. For me, my beliefs are strong enough, and I am comfortable enough in them that I don't mind learning about new things, and on the tiny chance that they may be wrong, it is better for me to know and correct myself than to hide in the darkness.

Take evolution for example: While there are many theists who accept evolution as a viable theory, anti-theists seem to have taken it up as there banner, so some theists respond by attacking it, and attempting at every step to make it out to be false. It may be true, and may be false, or part of it may be true. But by taking it up in such a ridiculous way, you are actually impeding the path of science! Now anti-theists will not consider evidence that shows that evolution may be false, because they need to prove there viewpoint right, and some theists will not consider evidence for evolution, because they need to prove their viewpoint right. The result: Both science, as well as well as the integrity of theistic beliefs suffer.

SCIENCE DOES NOT DISPROVE GOD, NOR DOES GOD DISPROVE SCIENCE.

I hope this discussion goes well, and doesn't descend into lists of scientists and their beliefs, and what this or that great scientist thinks about belief or non-belief, or arguments about what the actual beliefs of a certain scientist were....all that is a pretty unscientific way of looking at things

I would have to say that it is very possible to be christian (or any other religion) and a scientist...

I think the issue comes about when scientists skew their findings, or refuse to acknowledge evidence contrary to their faith...

I wouldn't say that most religious scientists do this, but you have to admit, the ones who do gain the most publicity...

Once a scientists looses objectivity, they cease to become true scientists...

This goes for all scientists on either side of the religious debate.

Originally posted by n0b0DY
I thought "Great, I love working for churches."

I was not expecting what was in store for me.

Pornography, Blasphemy, Hypocrasy, Sexual Perversions,
Drinking, Cursing, Betraying, the list goes on.

To this day I think I was the only Christian on staff.

It was a really, really, reaallly, tough place.
My biblical views were laughed at and I was always spat on by the head guys because I refused to follow their behaviour.

But God got me out.

Do you believe that He was the One to put you in there in the first place?

Churches (even staff) are made of people. People sin. I'm not sure how it came to a surprise, but it's an important revelation no matter how it's discovered, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." This doesn't justify their behaviour, merely that as bothers and sisters we're to do our best to help them correct it before it consumes them entirely. I know how it is though joining a new group, nobody wants to listen to the new guy so it does take a special kind of fortitude to complete that mission. I'd worked with my church staff for a little while, but it felt too 'corporate' for me. They're serious about their work all the time and have high expectations...so I didn't take on the challenge of the mission myself there. Hopefully someone will. Who knows, perhaps God will send me back. Missions aren't always in a far off country needing fresh water. Sometimes people need 'fresh water' in our own neighborhoods, our own church, or our own home.

Originally posted by n0b0DY
Now I also know of christian scientists who went into the same enviorment in their field. I cant even start to describe what they went through.

I'd be interested in hearing it. I didn't want to be carte-blanc about my experiences, just bringing up that science and Christianity isn't separate here as many seem to think.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by saint4God]

I know I have a good thread topic when babloyi posts on it

Originally posted by babloyi
Atheists claiming that belief in God is unscientific and thus theists are unscientific and cannot be scientists,

Par for the course here on ATS for the four years I've been here and is the reason for this thread's creation.

Originally posted by babloyi
and then the theists actually responding in terms of attacking science (science is evil, science is against God, etc)!

I haven't seen this in the last 500 years. It may exist, just not viewable from my chair.

Originally posted by babloyi
It is very disappointing, especially since such a weird debate shouldn't even pop up! There is no logical reason that there should be any line drawn between science and religion. In fact, if you ask me, being a theist would actually be a pretty good basis for being a scientist, in that a person would want to understand and experience this incredible world we live in.

This is one of the main reasons I took up Biology. I wanted to know how He did it. The mechanisms are amazing.

Originally posted by babloyi
For me, my beliefs are strong enough, and I am comfortable enough in them that I don't mind learning about new things, and on the tiny chance that they may be wrong, it is better for me to know and correct myself than to hide in the darkness.

True dat.

Originally posted by babloyi
Take evolution for example: While there are many theists who accept evolution as a viable theory, anti-theists seem to have taken it up as there banner, so some theists respond by attacking it, and attempting at every step to make it out to be false. It may be true, and may be false, or part of it may be true. But by taking it up in such a ridiculous way, you are actually impeding the path of science! Now anti-theists will not consider evidence that shows that evolution may be false, because they need to prove there viewpoint right, and some theists will not consider evidence for evolution, because they need to prove their viewpoint right. The result: Both science, as well as well as the integrity of theistic beliefs suffer.

Usually how the argument goest, yes. The good news for a Christian is that evolution is independent of their religous belief. You can be pro-evolution or soli-creation.

Originally posted by babloyi
SCIENCE DOES NOT DISPROVE GOD, NOR DOES GOD DISPROVE SCIENCE.

Yet. That may change, but is true today. I have a feeling though should science prove God, the whole world will be in an uproar and change almost overnight.

Originally posted by babloyi
I hope this discussion goes well, and doesn't descend into lists of scientists and their beliefs, and what this or that great scientist thinks about belief or non-belief, or arguments about what the actual beliefs of a certain scientist were....all that is a pretty unscientific way of looking at things

Scientists are people just like everyone else. Some sit back on the couch and wonder where the universe came from, others would rather not think about it.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by saint4God]

All the Fathers of Science and MOST of the Great ones that are recognized today for their fields WERE CREATIONISTS!

I think both sides can go overboard at times. I know Scientists that have been fired for heir beliefs when it didn't interfere with their job. but there is also many evolutionists out there skewing the actual evidence to lead people to believe heir point of view.

Science and Faith can go hand in hand as many great ones had no problem with it...

"Science and religion [are] no longer seen as incompatible."— The Daily Telegraph, London, May 26, 1999.

RECONCILING Science and Religion

Originally posted by holywar
"Science and religion [are] no longer seen as incompatible."— The Daily Telegraph, London, May 26, 1999.

RECONCILING Science and Religion

From your link:

Has science really seized the moral high ground? The answer is no. Postgate himself admits that "scientific communities have their share of jealousy, greed, prejudice and envy." He adds that "a few scientists have shown themselves capable of murder in the name of research, as happened in Nazi Germany and Japanese prison camps." And when National Geographic assigned an investigative reporter to find out how a fossil hoax ended up in its pages, the reporter spoke of "a tale of misguided secrecy and misplaced confidence, of rampant egos clashing, self-aggrandizement, wishful thinking, naive assumptions, human error, stubbornness, manipulation, backbiting, lying, [and] corruption."

Yaaarrrggghh!! Avast ye mateys! I see yonder competitor healtcare company o'er there! Hoist the roger, lay the timbers, and prepare to board! Swing over with our cutlasses in our teeth and get the booty! T'night the microscopes and bacterial cultures are on me!

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
I know Scientists that have been fired for heir beliefs when it didn't interfere with their job.

Do tell! At work I'm allowed to wear my cross. In college, I took more heat from my honors Biology professor and class than any other venue but can share my testament after yours.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Do tell! At work I'm aloud to wear my cross. In college, I took more heat from honors Biology and any other venue but can share my testament after yours.

Search the book titled Earth's tiny Mysteries... It is about Polonium Halos in granite, written by a well respected Scientist.

I tell you this so you find your own info and not what I lead you too. After you get the books author, read his story and Biography and when and why he was fired... I am not saying ALL scientists are this way, I am sure there are many good on both sides that don't let their preconceived notions lead them to their actions or findings. But it does happen, watch the movie Expelled with Ben Stein just released he has several that were fired for being Creationists.

To:saint

Of course I do. I strongly believe that testing of faith is the best way to grow.

But let me say this.

I'v worked for almost half of the church in my city.
Thats AALLLLOOOTT of churches. Every church i worked for was full of kind, humble, respecting individuals some who just worked there and didnt believe in Christ. I never had a single problem until I worked at this church. I can promise you that if you'd walk into a bar on a friday night and then walk into this church you wouldnt be able to tell the difference.







[edit on 18-12-2008 by n0b0DY]

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
All the Fathers of Science and MOST of the Great ones that are recognized today for their fields WERE CREATIONISTS!

I think both sides can go overboard at times. I know Scientists that have been fired for heir beliefs when it didn't interfere with their job. but there is also many evolutionists out there skewing the actual evidence to lead people to believe heir point of view.

Science and Faith can go hand in hand as many great ones had no problem with it...

Great Post.
Like the saying goes, "too much of anything can kill you."

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
Search the book titled Earth's tiny Mysteries... It is about Polonium Halos in granite, written by a well respected Scientist.

I tell you this so you find your own info and not what I lead you too. After you get the books author, read his story and Biography and when and why he was fired... I am not saying ALL scientists are this way, I am sure there are many good on both sides that don't let their preconceived notions lead them to their actions or findings. But it does happen, watch the movie Expelled with Ben Stein just released he has several that were fired for being Creationists.

I'll have to check them out. Probably moreso the movie because since joining ATS I've got a booklist a mile long . Darned educated people. Anywho, I must also admit I look at books/movies with a wary eye because I'd never gotten paid for giving my testimony .

Saint4God: Do you have a suggestion or idea regarding the following question poised by an atheist?

He quotes Jesus's scripture where He refers to the birds of the air, how they neither sow nor reap yet their Heavenly Father takes care of them. He goes on to say 'aren't you worth more than these creatures?'

My atheist friend wants to know why God would be sure to provide for birds of the air, which He refers to be less worthy than humans, while allowing babies around the world to starve and suffer with all manner of disease. He quips that SOME people must actually be lower than the fowl of the air, in God's eyes.

I don't know how to answer this, and it has come up before from other people. I know that some parts of the Bible are mysteries, and some of God's way are mysteries. Do we just need to be satisfied that this is one of those mysteries, and tell our detractors that? You may not have the answer and I don't mean to put you on the spot; perhaps someone else may even have some suggestions.

Originally posted by Bombeni
Saint4God: Do you have a suggestion or idea regarding the following question poised by an atheist?

He quotes Jesus's scripture where He refers to the birds of the air, how they neither sow nor reap yet their Heavenly Father takes care of them. He goes on to say 'aren't you worth more than these creatures?'

My atheist friend wants to know why God would be sure to provide for birds of the air, which He refers to be less worthy than humans, while allowing babies around the world to starve and suffer with all manner of disease. He quips that SOME people must actually be lower than the fowl of the air, in God's eyes.

I don't know how to answer this, and it has come up before from other people. I know that some parts of the Bible are mysteries, and some of God's way are mysteries. Do we just need to be satisfied that this is one of those mysteries, and tell our detractors that? You may not have the answer and I don't mean to put you on the spot; perhaps someone else may even have some suggestions.

This is a very good question, one that I think every believer should ask themselves. I also think it is one of the most poorly answered questions when searching for a solution on the internet. The greatest misconception that people have is that afflicted persons in some way deserved what they get (I could cite some personal afflictions and believe we're all meant to go through at least some measure of it). Case-In-Point is our brother Job.

"Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

"Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." - Job 1:8-12

Here is a man who did everything right, yet he was struck with famine, death all around him, disease, complete ruin. Did Job get what he deserved? No, because none of us are without sin, we deserve death. Instead God graces him at the end with more blessings than he had before. The answer is that the reward is "in the end".

Here's a great mystery to many people:

"Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope." - Romans 5:3-4

Rejoice in suffering? Paul, have you gone out of your mind? No, James explains further:

"Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything."

"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him." - James 1:2-4, 12

We have two choices in suffering. We can be angry at God or we can put our faith in Him that in the end everything is for a reason.

"Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." - Romans 8:17

For many of us, getting to Heaven means going through a lot of hell first.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by Bombeni


Bombeni -

maybe this article can help you with some answers:

Why does God permit suffering?

I think this thread crept into my dream last night. I dreamt after a team meeting, my manager called on someone to close the meeting in prayer. Totally caught me off-guard . It kinda makes sense though, being in medical diagnostics that we hope our product is high quality to saves lives and so forth.

I have never seen religion and science as opposites or in some sort of competition. They are totally different systems. I think the problem comes when people try to inter-mix the two. When people try to say there's "scientific proof of God". There is not. And they shouldn't even go there. It "cheapens" faith, in my opinion and mis-uses science.

Religion is all about faith in something than cannot be scientifically proven. It's about a firm belief in that which cannot be confirmed.

Science is all about proof. Evidence, affirmation, confirmation.

A scientist can prove his science and still have "belief" or "faith" in things that cannot be proven. There is no contradiction.

As regards evolution, creation or ID, each person has to decide for themselves what they believe. If they are comfortable with it, then it's nobody's business what they believe.

Just my 2 cents.