Ignorance in Beliefs

To beliefs:
The most common form of WHY that I've encountered is simple youth indoctrination.

That's how they were raised.

I postulate that others fall into the Religious/Near Death experience or something equally traumatic.

Not that I'm dogging on religion.

Many people have used religion to turn their lives from destructive to positive.

The truth is I 100% believe in God which automatically excludes me from agnosticism.
I know what I have been told about God using ancient ways of understanding and speaking.

For example, I know from what I have been told and read that God is a spirit.
Problem is, I don’t know what a spirit is exactly.
This is where the problem lies with me. Because I love Science a lot and I want to try t understand God in a scientific light.
Some say this is impossible but this is far from so.

I wrote a paper on this topic when I was in college once and it had to do with visions people were having.
How heavenly things always revolved around chariots, and gold and things of the time period that were understandable.
It also went in to how if you were an advanced species, or if you were a creator of everything on a scale of achievement unthinkable to lower life forms, how would you go about communicating to them.

It would seem pointless to show modern man chariots and gold trimmed white robes.
It would have to be something more modern and with the times so to speak.

I merely make the claim that there is nothing wrong with looking for God in the universe around us so long as we understand that there is a strong probability that we are no closer to grasping how the BIG picture was made any more than an ameba can understand quantum physics.

Just because an “ameba” cant understand something or lacks the faculties to fully function on our level doesn’t mean we don’t exist.

Why i believe.

10 years ago i attended an ALPHA course and within six weeks i just had enough faith to believe that Jesus was real and a part of history.

This in turn gave me the courage to ask him into my life. From that day on many wonderful things have happened and i don't mean the kind of things that can easily be put down to coincidences.

Through prayer, my wife sent her wheelchair back after being told that there was nothing that the doctors could do about the degenerative desease in her back and geve her a box of pain killers.
the same illness went to her neck so she could not turn her head. (she had to sell her motorbike) during one prayer session she was healed and regained full movement.

Four times i have met people who were in severe pain and after a prayer lasting no more than 10 secs the pain had gone and all but one walked away perfectly normal. one of these prayers was said silently so i could not have influenced the outcome by what the person heard and the person who did not walk away healed was in no pain from the time of prayer. thier forearm was broken in two.
These are just a small sample of my time doing prayer ministry.

I have prayed over total strangers and told them things about themselves that were only known to themselves.

I speak in tongues. people say that you are talking just gibberish so why not have a go yourselves.
Try now to talk in some sort of foriegn language. Not in your head but out aloud. I bet you can't.

I have seen someone having a demon cast out and they were screaming that snakes were biting thier feet. Later when she removed her socks there were two puncture wounds on the top of her foot.

I could be in a perfectly normal situation watching TV or reading a book and tears would just flow down my face for no apparent reason. I would then have a word (thought) about something or someone. when i acted on those thoughts something special would become of it.

Thats why i believe in Jesus.

I also understand the other side of the coin because i was there for 47 years prior to my conversion to a believer.

Cheers jon.

If this happened to you would you believe?



[edit on 16-12-2008 by jon1]

[edit on 16-12-2008 by jon1]

reply to post by DoYouSeeIt


Hello, and welcome to ATS.

I agree that there is a lot of ignorance of beliefs and that this very issue is why there can be so much animosity between the two sides.

I think that it is good for atheists to challenge believers. I think it would be even better if believers searched for understanding, or at the very least for the intent of their/our book to be able to meet those challenges.

I see Genesis used to support a 6000 year old earth, Job to support that people and dinosaurs co-existed, Revelation improperly called Revelations and then used to come up with all kinds of theories for future events (which it may), but my point is the entire bible is to teach spiritual truths and not historical factual events. True, there are historical factual events thrown in, but that is not the bible's purpose. The spiritual truths are for living our lives now... not imagining about what was or what will be.

Anyone using the bible for purposes against it's intent will end up being... well, perceived stupid. And so, I also think that religion, especially church-ianity, has done more to create atheists than there need be.

I don't blame atheists for being angry or ridiculing about the whole thing either. I put the blame where it firmly belongs... on the ignorance of beliefs and the inability to answer reasonable, logical questions with reasonable logical answers.

Oh, how I wish sometimes that believers were not allowed to speak about their faith until they actually knew something. But, then we would have the whole... who died and made you God argument.

And, so here we are with some in each camp wrapped up ignorance of beliefs and some standing outside it all and looking upon it all as so simple.

Regardless of beliefs, I too think that we can be civil and courteous with one another. In doing so, I believe we come closer to fulfilling the 2nd greatest commandment of loving one another. This I sometimes see atheists doing better than believers, but not always and that is a good thing. If we believers can remain meek, through our example, perhaps a second or third or fourth look at this spiritual stuff may be looked at.

Gosh... lol, looks like I got on a rant when all I really wanted to say, do you see it, is welcome and I hope that you can help eliminate ignorance where ever it might be found.

reply to post by Thelast


Thelast:


Very good post. I couldn't add anything to it.



Peace,
Grandma

reply to post by DoYouSeeIt


Erm... its a common misconception that atheists become atheists because of a run in with an ignorant believer...

I'm sure that there a few of those guys out there... but they would be few and far between... and quite frankly, aren't worthy of my attentions...

I was raised in a non-denominational christian church. however, at the age of about 12 or 13, I decided to study... and study hard...

I read the religious books on dozens of religions... both living and dead religions...

suddenly it dawned on me... Why are all these other religions wrong? They all have their books, all claiming to be the one true religion... What makes Christianity different than Egyptian or Roman mythology? Why would christianity be right, and why did these other religions "die".

Then I decided to read the bible... not just once, but several times, cover to cover... (I think I ended up reading it 3 times before I dropped out of church). The bible was so riddled with conflicting messages, contradictions, and factual inaccuracies... well, this was supposed to be the flawless word of god I had been taught...

If the bible wasn't consistant, this means It couldn't possibly be the inspired word of god... especially if god is "never changing" like the bible suggests.

After adding all these in my head... and thinking it over... making realizations left and right... until finally,I was hit with the existentialist "dread".

At this point, I dropped out of church... none of it made any sense whatsoever... Every aspect of what I believed was based on a book that couldn't possibly be as described. But, how can you believe in god and jesus accurately if the bible is the ONLY source of information on these figures...

If the bible is a work of fiction, then why would I insist god and jesus exist?

Finally, I decided to start finding my own answers... and look at all the theories and science that the church decides is false... without really providing any convincing evidence...

After reaching an understanding on Natural Selection and evolution... it was such a simple solution to a complex problem... it was just beautiful...

Thus, I became an atheist... the more I read, the more determined I became that religions of the world are just a bunch of hooey... (not just christianity)

There are still a few religions out there that I'm okay with... but they do not profess a supreme consciousness, nor any sort of all powerful magic man...

After you start educating yourself, you will start to see through the brainwashing that religion does to people... You will never notice you're brainwashed until you start to read all sides of the argument... not just the religious perspective.

I could give a list of books if anyone has the guts to read through them... I'd advise not telling your religious friends and mentors though... they'll freak out on you... (trust me, been there, done that )

reply to post by DoYouSeeIt


WHY I BELIEVE

I had this feeling, didn't really know what it was, but it went through my whole body. I remember I was eight years old and knew there was a presence with me all the time. It was a loving and a friendly presence. My grandmother would rock me and sing hymns to me and tell me stories about Jesus and then I knew at eight years of age this was my friend that was with me all the time. I would talk to him and he would answer me. I remember, I told my mom I wanted to go to church but we didn't go to a church so I just started walking to town one Sunday and ended up at a church and sat by myself in the pew but I really wasn't alone. I joined the children's choir and even got my two brothers going to church with me. Every Sunday the three of us would walk to town to attend our church.

Now, as I got older I kind of gotten away from my friend Oh, he was always there, I was the one who walked away. I always believed in him but had not become a follower at that point.

When my son, Craig, died at 2 weeks before his 8th birthday, well, my world came crashing down on me. No parent should ever have to bury their child. I still had a 2 year old daughter at home to take care of and if not for that I really don't know if I would have climbed out of that hole. But an amazing thing happened, my friend returned he had never left. I cried and I yelled at him. I told him how my heart was breaking and how I ached for my son. He told me he understood. That at one time his heart was also breaking for his son. He like the poem Footprints In The Sand lifted me up and carried me through that darkness and brought light and spiritual enlightenment into my heart. I fell face down on my kitchen floor and told him, O.K. that I was not going to fight him anymore. That day I became more than a believer, I became a follower of his Son.

That was over 30 years ago and the light shines brighter than ever and the love is non-ending. Like newborn babies, we crave pure spiritual milk, so by it we may grow up in our salvation, now that we have tasted the Lord is good. (1Peter2:2)

So did my son's death make me a believer? I don't think so. I think I believed all along. I had just never gave my life over to Christ. I believe my conversion came about because of my son's death.

In these 30 some years he has blessed me with so may wonderful things but the greatest is the spiritual relationship that I have one on one with him. Those times of fellowship are times where I am taken up so high that I could touch heaven and hear the angels sing. He has given me secrets kept deep in my heart and a song that only he and I know. I can't prove this to anyone and if the person reading this is not a Christian than they would not understand the heavenly consciousness that one can have with the divine Father.

So, that is why I believe.


Peace,
Grandma

***Applause!!***

NJ, very insightful, and informative from someone who appears to be the same as I, just at the other end. Its nice to speak to this topic without the ignorant accusing me of "preaching" to them. Thank You.

Grandma, how very sorry I am for your loss those many years ago. I myself have 3 children, and although I am challenged daily, I cant possibly pretend to know what you experienced. Some might use your story as an agruement against there being an all-loving God. ie. "How could a God of Love put you thru such anguish?" I disagree.....It may be as simple as you had to endure the same by which God endured by sacrificing his only Son, in order for your foundation to be built in which to carry on that which the Lord intended for you. That is Love.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah....I know what some of you are thinking....my reply to Grandma is extremely easy to attack due to someone's lack of faith....Please allow this post to go undisturbed & untarnished by your ridicule, as this was meant personally for Grandma, and is NOT open for discussion.

Just as with nj, I will gladly discuss my beliefs or your lack of, but will not respond to any attack to how I responded to Grandma. Thank you all in advance.

[edit on 16-12-2008 by DoYouSeeIt]

reply to post by nj2day


Hi Nn2day, thanks for that post. I agree with your reasoning.


I did not have the same upbringing as you, I was never indoctrinated into religion, a few family members were christian, but not imposed on me.

I didn't get baptised either, my parents wanted to give me choice instead of labelling me something before I knew what it was.

I also read in-depth into texts from religions. past and present, I came to the same conclusions. Why is this book right, and that book wrong? How can such an inconsistent message be taken as the ultimate words, all of the sacred books made me think this. I also hated that childern were branded as 'a christian child, 'a muslim child', 'a jewish child' even 'an atheist child' before they even understood what it meant for themselves. Children survive by listening to their parents, it natural - i think it is awful to decide something like that for them.

My internal moral compass had misgivings with all religions, none seems to be truly 'Good'.

I read about evolution, it made beautiful sense, there was no need for any magic or hocus pocus, there was just natural processes - pure.

I still read alot of these discussions as I like to test my own beliefs, to see if any argument can turn me or make me think about it differently. None have yet, but some came close...

Please send me the list of the books which you read Nj2day, I would be interested in having a gander.

reply to post by snowen20


great post; sorry but, for me, you're somewhat vague in your post; are you alluding to inter-dimensional entities?

reply to post by Unsane


Sure! there's alot, so I'll try to remember them all

I read the Koran, Tao Te Ching, Tibetan Book of the Dead, Egyptian Book of the Dead, The Bhagavad Gita, The Magus, The Satanic Bible, The 21 Lessons of Merlin and Various books on Greek, Roman, Norse and Native American Mythology.

Then I read the bible non stop cover to cover either 3 or 4 times... (It kinda blurs)

After none of it made sense, I started reading The Descent of Man by Darwin, Which led me to reading the Origin of Species, The Blind Watchmaker and The Selfish Gene (Both by R. Dawkins) and The Ant and the Peacock (Helena Cronin).

This is prabably about, 3 years worth of reading material for an avid reader... none are what we'd call quick reads...

As far as books that I felt explained evolution the best way for a layperson, I would recommend The Blind Watchmaker... hands down...

Once you realize, and fully understand Evolution and its implications... It seems an "insult" (if you can call it that) to the universe to imply a creator... By adding a creator, you cut out 80% of the beauty of life and how it attained its current status...



[edit on 17-12-2008 by nj2day]