JFK film: Questions and observations

Hello, and good morning.

I've gotten interested in the JFK film, and have some questions and observations I can't find answers to, or are confusing. I'll try to go in order of the film. I'll give the thinker, and then my understanding to try and prevent passing on my confusion.

1)Shooting angle and firing time: Right or left handed shots?

1a) The angle of the shot- It looks like the boxes they show for the rifle support are set up to left side of the window, next to the wall, if you were looking out from inside the building. Also, the road appears to cut back towards the building the further it goes.
To me it appears impossible to shoot from that position right handed past the first shot, that was suppose to be right infront of the building. Let alone the later shots. You just wouldn't have the room to traverse the rifle to get the proper angle, it seems too awkward.
Now, if Oswald is shooting left handed or had to switch shooting positions, would he have made the 8 second time limit?
Also, shooting left handed, he definitely would have needed a support for the rifle, to allow the right hand to cycle the bolt.
This makes me wonder why he even chose the window. If he went that far up why not go to the roof; more room, angle, and position choices. Especially from above the left side of the building, as you face it from the street, and you're not in as many peoples line of sight.

2) The umbrella conspiracy theory:

2a) When I was a kid I read an article about a CIA umbrella weapon, that fired a flechette round. The story pointed out that there was only one umbrella in the film footage, right in front of the street sign the limo passes, and JFK emerges holding his throat they said a dart could tranq him and keep him still. I haven't really heard anything like that since.
When I watch the footage there seems to be a flash of light on the limo's rear fender, and what appears to be little objects flying towards the car. It almost looks like a shotgun blast. Maybe its just from magnifying the scene, that causes what I see.
Also, as for the magnifacation that happens during the scene, who did that? Is it just from the car getting closer, that it appears to magnify? Because the beginning and end are so much clearer.

3)Sounds and Reactions: People and pictures of pointing

3a) The Governor says he recognized the first shot as a high powered rifle, but doesn't hardly react within the 8 seconds. I can't believe a politician sitting with the most powerful man in America hears a shot, but doesn't think to duck or get his wife down within 8 seconds.
The other strange thing is the crowd doesn't seem to react as if a rifle was fired. Maybe, a subsonic weapon or so was used.
In the show that examines the evidence from the car, they reenacted the shooting, with actors posed from a still picture taken from the film. When they're positioning the actors and show the picture you can see JFK pointing. It's when Jackie is cradling him before the last shot, she has her hand on his back and bicep. If you pause and look at the photo you can see his hand next to his face near his ear, and he seems to be distinctly pointing at something.

I appreciate your time and patience in reading and answering my chaos.
Thanks, and have a nice day.

Im not sure I understand your questions but I will attempt to answer what I THINK you are asking.

1) The boxes were not likely used to support the rifle, if indeed LHO was a shooter that day. The window ledge itself was probably what was used. So that seems to solve any issues that you are having with a shot being made from that window. The main problem with the window ledge is that it is so low, lower than most people imagine. It would have been a little bit akward to kneel there and rest the gun on that ledge but that is how it was supposedly done. No boxes. The only thing he supposedly used the boxes for was to conceal the "sniper's nest".




2) The tranq dart theory has indeed been around for a long time. There is very little if any evidence for it. Why use a dart to keep him still, if you can just as easily hit him with a bullet and kill him? The dart wouldnt keep the car still, so you still have a moving target.

As far as the flash, or any sort of pellets or anyhting of the sort moving towards the car....the camera that Zapruder used was a Bell and Howard that filmed at approx 18 fps, not nearly fast enough to capture projectiles. If you tell me exaclty what frames you are seeing this, I may be able to better explain what is it, but I am going to say for now that what you are likely seeing are reflections.

Remember, the Zapruder film is pretty low-quality. We cant get a whole lot from it. Even the nature of the head would seen on that film is still hotly debated.

3) The shots werent as loud as you might imagine. People tend to think that gunshots would have been so distinct and almost deafening, which isnt the case. People thought at first that it was firecrackers, people disagree as to how many shots were fired, etc. They were not overpoweringly loud. It is debatable when the governor actually knew he was hearing gunshots. THe same for the crowd. Lots of people though that he was joking when he grabbed his throat.

As for the pointing, again, I would ask for a frame number. Dont put too much stock in re-enactments. They are often inaccurate. Best to study the z-film yourself.

Ya its the same ol sob sorry lie about the whole thing..it was one lone gunman and 3 miracle bullets and one lucky one and one that magically zig zagged in several directions and ended up on a hospital gurder in prestine shape.


Pay attention to the Zapruder film. Dispite what the debunkers keep on saying, there is undeniable proof that Kennedy was hit from the front right side, causing his head to move back and to the left.


Give up on the old lone gunman 3 bullet lie..its as rediculous of an explanation by trusty government as them telling you "you can hang an elephant by its nose from a daisy off a cliff".


Cheers!!!!

Please explain further why this is the case. Specifically, why:

1) The Zapruder film shows no entrance wound on the right front of the head

2) The right or right rear portion of the head is where the most significant damage occurs

3) why Jackie was not inured

4) the "back and to the left" motion is so violent and extreme.

5) the President moves forward before his head explodes and he moves back and to the left.



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[edit: removed unnecessary quote of entire previous post]
Quoting - Please review this link

[edit on 3-12-2008 by 12m8keall2c]

Thanks for your time.

I was referencing the zapruderfilm according to the shows.
The pointing picture was a still taken from the film 1/8th of a second / last frame before final head shot according to show.

As for the rifle I'm saying even left handed he would be tucked between the boxes used to conceal the rifle and the wall, that has a pole that would be taking up more room. Leaving no room to traverse the rifle because his body or barrell is goining to be stopped by one if not a couple of those obstacles. Not allowing the field of view needed. If he shot right hande theres no way he could do it on the inside of the boxes. If it was right handed and behind the boxes using them to conceal his position it looks like even less room and hed only be able to shoot to the left of his position.

The digital cable doesnt want to play back th other show right now. That one had it broken down to the frames of the 8 seconds. Until I get it going, its right when the car is coming up to the street sign and the video gets closer to the car. I apologize I'll get the frames posted in minute

Originally posted by luckydevil
Thanks for your time.

I was referencing the zapruderfilm according to the shows.
The pointing picture was a still taken from the film 1/8th of a second / last frame before final head shot according to show.

As for the rifle I'm saying even left handed he would be tucked between the boxes used to conceal the rifle and the wall, that has a pole that would be taking up more room. Leaving no room to traverse the rifle because his body or barrell is goining to be stopped by one if not a couple of those obstacles. Not allowing the field of view needed. If he shot right hande theres no way he could do it on the inside of the boxes. If it was right handed and behind the boxes using them to conceal his position it looks like even less room and hed only be able to shoot to the left of his position.

The digital cable doesnt want to play back th other show right now. That one had it broken down to the frames of the 8 seconds. Until I get it going, its right when the car is coming up to the street sign and the video gets closer to the car. I apologize I'll get the frames posted in minute

According to which shows, please?

You say the final frame before the headshot shows him pointing. The final frame before the headshot would be z312, which can be viewed here:

spot.acorn.net...

He isnt pointing at anything that I can see, just being cradled by Jackie.

As far as the shooting position from the TSBD, I still do not see how it would present a problem regardless of whether one fired left-handed or right-handed. The boxes were used to conceal the firing position, they were stacked around the window area. They wouldnt interfere with positioning the rifle.

www.fiftiesweb.com...

OK, the frames are 232-236 and for the reflection and wierd grainy things that look loke their ging towards he car. It might just be when they try to zoom in on the film though like a negative problem or something.

The picture of JFK seeming to point at something appears at like 304 to 312. Maybe he's just trying to protect his face, but it ditinctly looks like his pointer finger is extended with the othe curled back.

The gun sounds I was going off the quote of the Gov.'s statement that he recognized it as a rifle. I know witness testimony gets messed up in high stress situations and that. Just seeing what info opinions those of you have that have been doing this alot longer than I.

The head shot movement- When I told my mom, who always followed these shows, it was on and we talked about it later. She said they used to say that because the head moved the way it did was the evidence of the shot being taken from behind, now they say there is no way to for sure the head would move a certain way when hit from a certain angle, only the wound cavity can prove the angle.

Even if he was shot from behind there is alot of other buildings and better points to use.

The show is show is called JFK: inside the target car

The picture they show is the one you linked but closer to the wall showing the lower boxes of like 3 near the window.

Without using the ones on the floor near the window i dont see how the position would be considered concealed by the boxes. The high stack of boxes would seem to provide a better outline than concealment.
Now you can see why im confused.

If you fired right handed out a window with a target moving left to right, once the target passes you by maybe nomore 15degrees wouldnt you have to change to left handed to line up the shot?

Or do you know the measurements for the window and angle from the window to target for each shot?

Thanks again for your time.

please tell me that you guys know that the zapruder film was heavily doctored.

1. the blood spray from the fatal shot looks like a very primitive variant of photoshop.

2. Governor Connelly moves his stetson hat with super human speed.

3. Eyewitnesses testified to the car slowing, almost to a stop. yet in the z film, it shows the car speeding up.

thats just a few things people and i have spotted. there are more. look closely to the crowd (or lack thereof)

If you think about it, it's definitely a set up. The secret service was told to leave their posts just before turns on to houston street. Also, take notice of the crowd on houston street. Its 3 to 12 people deep, shoulder to shoulder. When he turns on to elm street, there's almost no one there. That spot should have been the most crowded as there is much more room for spectators. After the shots, there is footage of people dropping to the ground, and a large number of people running towards the fence including police. Now why would they all run up there? Simple, there was a man with a gun that had shot JFK standing there.

Luckydevil,

I still dont see where you see him pointing. You say z304-312, but I just dont see it, nor has anyone else that I am aware of ever seen it. Here is a link to ALL frames of the z film. Take a look and see what you think upon close examination. I really dont think he was capable of pointing at anything, he had been shot badly at that point, whether by Oswald through the throat, or by someone else is up for debate, but his primary concern at that point was breathing, I think, not pointing.

www.assassinationresearch.com...

Now, as far as the boxes and positioning the rifle. I dont know if you have ever fired a rifle, but I can assure you that from that position in the TSBD, it really would not have been terribly difficult to line up the shots that Oswald supposedly made. Im not marksman, but I have fired various rifles, and it would be a simple matter to set up in that window. I am still not sure what you feel the trouble would be. That doenst mean I believe Oswald did it alone, but I just cannot seem to grasp what you feel the problem with the shooting position was. He laid the front part of the rifle on the window sill for some stability, and fired. Nothing there would get in the way of that, except for the tree blocking his view right when the limo made the turn.

At no point would you have to switch from right to left handed. You would have to track the car from slightly left to right, but it was moving almost straight away from him when the shots occurred. The boxes may or may not have been effective at concealing that position, but they had no effect on a shooter's ability to fire shots from that window. Whether to the side or behind, they would not have interfered with firing a rifle from that window.

Again, whether LHO is responsible is another matter, but no boxes would have prevented anyone from taking a shot from that window. The window provided a good view of the limo that day, and whether anyone did or not, it would have been a good place from which to take shots at the President.

This diagram represents roughly the different angles that shots from various locations would have been. On the extreme left (west) is representing a shot from the grassy knoll, the one in the middle represents a shot from LHO's supposed position, and the one to the right of that represent a shot from the DalTex building.

i141.photobucket.com...

I also wanted to mention that your mother is pretty much correct, sometimes movement can be misleading. MOST of the time, an object, especially a person WILL move away from the direction of the shot. But not always.

I assert that JFK DID move away from the direction from which he was shot. He moved forward. Watch very closely.

killtown.911review.org...

He moves forward, and THEN backwards. The forward motion is slight, just as we would expect a reaction to a gunshot to be. He didnt get hit with a sledgehammer, he got hit with a bullet. That back and to the left reaction that so many people seem to thinkn was from a bullet certainly wasnt, at least not from any bullet I have ever seen. If that was from a bullet, it would have seriously injured the shooter, because the shooter would have ben hit with recoil that was just as hard as the force that knocked Kennedy back.

Hopefully this clears some things up for you.

Originally posted by Sliick
please tell me that you guys know that the zapruder film was heavily doctored.

1. the blood spray from the fatal shot looks like a very primitive variant of photoshop.

2. Governor Connelly moves his stetson hat with super human speed.

3. Eyewitnesses testified to the car slowing, almost to a stop. yet in the z film, it shows the car speeding up.

thats just a few things people and i have spotted. there are more. look closely to the crowd (or lack thereof)

If you think about it, it's definitely a set up. The secret service was told to leave their posts just before turns on to houston street. Also, take notice of the crowd on houston street. Its 3 to 12 people deep, shoulder to shoulder. When he turns on to elm street, there's almost no one there. That spot should have been the most crowded as there is much more room for spectators. After the shots, there is footage of people dropping to the ground, and a large number of people running towards the fence including police. Now why would they all run up there? Simple, there was a man with a gun that had shot JFK standing there.

This theory has been around for years, and debated constantly. I personally do not believe the Z-film was altered. Why? For one, Zapruder himself said that it was genuine. He verified it. Said, yup, that is what I filmed that day.

Secondly, I dont think they had the technology back then to alter is so substantially. If they did, they sure didnt make it look like Oswald did it, they left too much up for debate. If they were going to alter it, they would have made it pretty obvious that the shot came from the TSBD. Instead, what we have only creates debate.

People ran to the fence because one person ran over there to check, then a lot of people followed. Nobody was sure exaclty where the shots came from, they were checking everywhere. One of the motorcycle officers (Hargis, I think) headed up there to check things out, people around assumed there was a shooter there, and followed.

Keeping in mind that I believe there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, I submit to you that the fatal shot did NOT come from the GK, that it was impossible, and that researchers continue to be mislead and distracted by hunting for the phantom gunman on the grassy knoll. The left side of his head was intact. There is no debate about that. None. Not from DP witnesses, not from Parkland staff, not from anyone with any knowledge of the assasination. How, then could the shot have come from the right front? It didnt.

I ask you, would it not make more sense, if you were going to set Oswald up, to place ANOTHER shooter behind JFK? I believe the fatal shot came from the Dal Tex building. Why shoot him from the front, and have your fall guy behind him? That would be a really tough sell. They werent counting on the back and to the left movement, I dont think. But it happened. I think they are grateful for it, because it has taken the attention off of where the real shooter/shooters probably were, which was behind him all along.

Hi again.

Again I'd like to thank you all for your time and opinions.

After being able to review the tape more, your right he is not pointing at anything. It was a shadow / reflection caused my initial thought of him appearing to point. After I watched on a different (clearer) tv I could see I was wrong.

I'm trying to gather info, to make my own conclusions. I have shot many rifles, from many supports, and in different situations, moving and stationary. Right now thats the part I am most interested in, the angles and distance.

Basically, the fact that the third longest most obstructed shot was the most accurate, bothers me. I still feel that the box positioning, room to move around in that area, poles, walls, moving target, field of view out of the scope, firing positioning, lining up the rifle with all these factors within the amount of time (if an exact time can be determined) would help with facts.

Take your rifle to a window, and see how much you need to move around or adjust. And I'm sure you can make a right handed obtuse angle shot to the right, but only after changing your whole body and rifle position. Unless you change to left handed. All this takes extra time, all the while the target is moving. And youv'e already taken two other shots and had to reload and aquire your moving target.

The shot was not straight on, unless the car is driving 90 degrees away from the window. Since it wasn't, then every factor within that nest comes into play. The angle of the shot depend on what was in the way or what was used for support. I feel that the questions of one or more gunmen can be answered by proving the exact shot(s) can be taken in the amount of time (4-8 seconds), in the same type of hide.

I appreciate the diagram link, but that still looks atleast about 135 degrees from the window sill. Also, I found measurements for the distance fired except from 175ft - 265ft isn't too exact. The angles from the commision report states: muzze to impact 21, 20, and 17 degrees (as in Height shot was from).

As I was saying I was looking for information, since some facts are not given, and some facts vary depending on the source. So I apologize for being confusing, but thats why I've asked for help.

With the info I'm getting I want to set up my own senario from the window. Once, thats done I'll have a better way to express my views. I'll post the video results, and that will be alot clearer than my rambling thoughts.

I still need the dimensions of the window if anyone has that info.

Thanks again

luckydevil,

might I suggest www.jfklancer.com to post your questions on. I do not know the exact size of the window, and I was going to go find out, but I would just ask over there. I think those forums would be a valuable resource for you if you wish to seriously begin to study the events in Dallas that day. Good luck. I look forward to your conclusions.

First of all, Oswald probably didn't do any shooting. Second, there were probably 10 shooters, possibly 13 or more if some were in the storm drains and on tops of bldgs. You can't rely on the zapruder film. It's been edited too much. Here's a video to give you an idea of the tampering.
www.youtube.com...
second half of this one www.youtube.com...


Here's the likely scenario.
www.jfkmurdersolved.com...
www.strike-the-root.com...

[edit on 28-2-2009 by Sargoth]

I said Lee Harvey Oswald didn't shoot because nitrate tests on his face were negative. Plus he couldn't do the shooting with a low powered, defective scope, $12.00 piece of crap.

Here are some of the best youtube videos.

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
surftofind.com... - scroll down to the profile photo of Sturgis which proves beyond all doubt he was the tall tramp!
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com... -look at the guy next to Billy Lovelady in the doorway. His face is always blotted out. Is it Jack Ruby?
www.youtube.com...

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Found 2 really good videos on the bullet hole in the windshield and JFK's neck wound.

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...



[edit on 20-3-2009 by Sargoth]

[edit on 20-3-2009 by Sargoth]