Evidence in Scripture disproving god once and for all

mmmm.... so god knew when he created the angels and satan that, satan would revolt against god and convince some of the angels to turn against god........ so by your logic.... if Satan the Agels and God are not linear... but are all from the multiverse...... then why did God even create them knowing that they would envoke free will and choose to turn on God???

Interesting post and I like where you are headed with some of your statement. You sound like a smart person, but I've got to say that you lost me when you started using "than" when it should've "then" and same goes for "their" in place of "they're". Well thought out, though. Keep going!

-anon

Jeremiah 10:23 (New International Version)

23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.


So..........why would I want to follow my fellow man (insert your favorite religious leader here) in leading me spiritually???? Does this not tell me otherwise?????

reply to post by iismtivu


I know, bit of a plot-hole, huh?

2) Free will: If god is Omniscient, than he knows your future. If he knows your future, than it is already set in stone (if your future changed, god would cease to be omniscient). Therefore Free will cannot exist... Which can't be true, since the bible is the infallible word of god, and says we are created free.

I think your limiting the definition of omniscient as well as the possibilities of our futures. Think of it more as God knows all our POSSIBLE futures ahead of time, but those change based on the decisions we make. That's where our free will comes in. God may know everything that can happen, but we decide what will happen.

I'm not a firm believer in the bible or anything, just playing devil's advocate

mmmmmm..... considering if Satan didn't exist... we might not have existed either....

Originally posted by nj2day
1) If god is Omnipotent, can he make an object so heavy he cannot lift it himself?

No, because God's omnipotence is about actual powers not imaginary powers. There is no power anywhere to make a stone so heavy He cannot lift it, the power does not exist therefore it is not a power to have. "We believe that his might is universal, for God who created everything also rules everything and can do everything." (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC] para. 268)

2) Free will: If god is Omniscient, than he knows your future. If he knows your future, than it is already set in stone (if your future changed, god would cease to be omniscient). Therefore Free will cannot exist... Which can't be true, since the bible is the infallible word of god, and says we are created free.

God's omniscience is not linear bound by the passage of time, His omniscience is that, "To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace" (CCC. para 600)

3) If god is all knowing, and all powerful, and the creator of all... than he must know who is doomed to hell before they are born. Knowing who is destined for hell, how can he offer a free pass to heaven by believing in Jesus? Surely he knew what you would decide before you were given the option. Therefore, choosing to believe or not to believe is not your choice, but is predestined before you were born. Your ticket has already been written, so don't sweat it... right?

God knows where we are going "Predestination" He knows how we are going to get there, He does not force our root or destination. God's knowledge of our choices does not predetermine our choices. Our choices are not predetermined, we have free will. Predestined means God knows how we will choose not that He forces our hand to choose one way or another.

4) If god knows who is doomed to hell before their are born and allows them to be created anyway, than he is sentencing people to eternal damnation for sins never committed... If people are born without their futures etched in stone, than god cannot see the future.

See above answer. Where we are to go is already decided based on our actions, those actions are not predetermined. Could God force us to believe in Him? of course He could. Does He? No. Why not? Because of the great gift of free will. Hence people can witter on about the errors of the Bible and the errors of His Church and choose to ignore the truth. It would have been much handier if instead of leaving His presence with us in the form of bread and wine he had left a 3,000 foot gold statue that breathed fire and spoke every few seconds "Believe in me" but then it wouldn't be belief it would be compunction.

5) If god is Omniscient, knowing what will happen in the future, than he can not use his omnipotence to change the outcome... As he is powerless to change the outcome of future events, he is not Omnipotent.

There is no "future" or "past" to God there is simply "I am." In that "am-ness" there is all power and all knowledge and by His grace these little creatures called humans who experience time and the freedom of choice bestowed upon us.

reply to post by TravelerintheDark


I doubt that the creator can create something so heavy he cannot lift it - although this is quite a crude thing we must always bear in mind the following:

Is that which contains greater that that which it contains ?

and here is the paradox for everyone, God IS greater than that which he contains but he is also that which he contains. God contains and that which he contains is God. Therefore he is able to make something so heavy that he cannot lift because there are many things a normal human being cannot lift, a normal human being is afterall by extension the same God, to a different degree. All of this is God limiting himself/herself in order to experience further and further in all directions.

I have a few thoughts on this. First off, Omniscient is complete knowledge. So you can ultimately only have complete knowledge of that which currently exists. The idea of "seeing into the future" doesn't really come into play as only the current moment exists, in my opinion.

That being said, ultimately why attempt to disprove someones religious beliefs? Several "facts" merely a few decades ago have been proven false. Who is to say what the true validity of what we "know" now really is?

Also, most Biblical Scholars agree that the bible had several redactors through time. A collection of stories were brought together into a single book. We can look to other writings of the time to help us infer bits of history. We can also look to the Apocrypha (sp?) to know that the stories within the Bible have been added and removed.

Humankinds understanding of the world has change alot over the last several millenium as well as our interpretations of events, however the core messages of the Bible are still relevant today. The problem with trying to destroy someone's religion really comes down to taking away an effective learning vehicle. People tend to learn better by relating experiences. The Bible, the Dharma and many other religious texts are all about relating human experiences to help others gain insights to their own actions and to improve their lives. Ultimately that is not a bad thing.
They definately tend to go down better then dry scientific text that lack a feeling of "humanity"

Certainly throughout time people have used religion as an excuse to do some pretty heinous things. Some of that came from humankinds own misunderstanding of their world, others came from misplaced trust in leaders and their charismatic ability to twist words.

Ultimately whenever we choose not to think for ourselves, we are asking for problems. This does not however make the teachings within the Bible invalid. The story is not truly about God, or even the relationship of God and humankind, it truth it is more about humankinds struggle to advance and get along with one another. It is about doing right by one another, compassion and all of that. It also helped warn people of the time of dangers to themselves through terms they could understand at that time.

For myself I have come to accept God as our Universe. Whether truly cognizant or not it doesn't matter, I am ultimately subject to the Laws of the Universe, I owe my existence to it's creative force. We are all of the same stuff, that alone is pretty cool.

In the end, when you try to dissprove God or someone's religion, what is your true goal? Are you really serving to better humankind? Are you honestly helping others avoid suffering? I would say no. The conversation really should be focused on the good parts, the true messages, because it is in there we will find humankinds salvation. As time passes and we learn more and more about our Universe..the rest will take care of itself. We have to survive to get there. Cold logic is not the answer, love, compassion, mindfullness, right actions and speach, those kind of things are the answer, mixed of course with a good helping of science, empathy and objective thought.

Accept that others might have a different understanding of the world then you, and allow them that difference.

My two cents.



[edit on 27-11-2008 by nuke_c]

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by asmeone2

 

I'm only using it because the religious like to use those circular logic arguments...

we all know the type:

I know it is like x because the bible says so and we know the bible is true because god said so...

thats why like I suggested earlier, I know it could use some polish, and some more eloquence, but lets face it... it is worth it to spend that much time?

Honestly though, while it makes sense to me & many other like minded & intelligent people....

To the Fanatical Christians, it will be in one ear & out the other & they will just start preaching the same versus to you in their infinite wisdom to prove you wrong, just like they do with Darwinists...lol

Unfortunately, Christians are beyond help because Logic is replaced by blind faith & cannot be overthrown, even when their own gods words are shown to contradict & are thrown right in their faces. They will just deny what they have heard & start praying frantically for their souls for allowing such words to enter their minds...lol

Religion is the biggest scam in history, and unfortunately, like any cult, its followers are doomed to be forever under its control. And I'm not just talking about Christianity, but all religions.

The only belief systems I have any respect for are the ones that are truly based on free will, Peace, Nature & Free will. Buddhism, Druidism, are a couple of belief systems that don't try to hold people to a set of strict rules. Paganism & Wicca are two that, although are a little questionable in their motives, still give the follower a free reign & don't profess an omnipotent all knowing entity.

I personally am Wicca oriented & wouldn't have it any other way. I am not Evil as some Christians have called me. I pay my dues, I help little old ladies across the road, I hold the door open for people comming in as I am leaving, I Cried at the end of ET....!!! Sheesh, what makes me Evil?

LOL talk about contradiction...!! What happened to the all forgiving & tolerant god? Recently I had to work with some very heavily Christian people. I was on the same Bush Crew as these people & when one of them started trying to get me to come to church, I stated that I was Wiccan & wasn't interested.

No toleration here, they complained to the manager that they would not work with me because they feared for their souls. L......O.......L

Only way to get through to these people is to pull god down from he heavens, and make him tell these people personally to go get a life. It's the only thing they will believe!!!

If I had no choice & had to choose either God or the Devil...

I'd choose the devil for one reason.

If there truly is no free will in Christianity, then Christianity is a Totalitarian system & god is nothing more than a Universal Dictator. The Devil was then Cast out of heaven for questioning Gods authority. That makes the Devil not a being of Darkness but a rebel & a fighter for freedom "who lost to overwhelming odds". But the Devils intentions were to free the people not to enslave them "God already had them enslaved".

So in hindsight, the Devil in my opinion is the good guy, and god is just another Dictator suppressing the true choices of the people.

Just my two cents worth...

Personally though, I'd choose neither side. I'd rather sit on the sidelines and Follow my own path.

[edit on 11/27/2008 by Ironclad]

Originally posted by iismtivu
mmmm.... so god knew when he created the angels and satan that, satan would revolt against god and convince some of the angels to turn against god........ so by your logic.... if Satan the Agels and God are not linear... but are all from the multiverse...... then why did God even create them knowing that they would envoke free will and choose to turn on God???

To prove that he doesnt change your will ?

To show that even though he knew you would do that thing, he still created you.

Please bear in mind, God has all the patience in the world - even diamonds start as coal. In the original Aramaic scripts you will see that "Evil" and "Good" are actually "ripe" and "unripe". Once you understand that, you see that it's a natural process and not all fruit ripens uniformely - some take longer than others but in the end they will all come to fruition.

I purposefully put capital letters on evil and good because people tend to do this alot, just like they do with Satan - like its a proper noun or something. The original writ has it penned as "adversary" - not "Lucifer" or "Satan" or "Choronzon" etc etc

reply to post by nj2day



I want to thank you for this post. It has boosted my faith in the God of the Bible even MORE!

This thread helps me understand why God exists in three persons. It points to Jesus!

This website is more proof that the God of the Bible exists we just don't want to admit.

The whole alien thing. I mean really how many times do you need to be told down through the ages that Fallen Angels/Demons/etc.. are the same beings spoke of in Genesis, that provoked a DNA war. And ages later the story is with us along with evidence of the war itself...again this site is proof of that.

Thanks for helping build my faith even more in The God of the Bible. He ROCKS!

Regards,
FG

[edit on 27-11-2008 by firegoggles]

Originally posted by nuke_c
Cold logic is not the answer, love, compassion, mindfullness, right actions and speach, those kind of things are the answer, mixed of course with a good helping of science, empathy and objective thought

Hey you forgot Dancing, afterall a revolution without dancing is not a revolution worth having

reply to post by mortalengine


Thank you for that succinct illustration of one aspect of my intended point.

Another aspect would be to say that the Creator does not lift us alone, but rather through our own efforts.

[edit on 27-11-2008 by TravelerintheDark]

I believe what religion teaches us is all wrong. The whole idea of the Bible and teachings of Christ is you do something bad or wrong, God will punish you. That's the worse way to teach morals to a person. You do something bad, HE's going to be mad at you and you might go to hell. It takes the whole responsibility of doing the right or wrong thing off your shoulders. I don't want to do wrong because God is not going to like it. How about you won't do something negative because YOU yourself know you should not, not because some imaginary person will get mad at you. It takes the whole moral issue of thinking, knowing, and acting for yourself and what YOU know is the right or wrong thing and putting on another person's shoulders. Shouldn't we have the commonsense and pride in ourselves to do what's right. You do wrong, you shouldn't be worried about God, you should be worried about your own pride and morality to know what is right and what is wrong. I feel religion takes that responsibility away from people and allows them to let their wrongdoings be someone else's problem not their own.

What is right is quite simple, live your life to the best you can, share the love, care, and respect to those around you that you deserve, and try to help the entire world progress instead of digress. It's pretty simple. I don't need the Bible to tell me that. But some people do.

What bothers me are the people who look down on non-believers. Ask yourself this, who is a better person... someone who has to go to church to be reminded to do good over and over again or someone who never ever went to a church or followed a religion and never did anything wrong in their life. but they were able to make the right choices without the influence of a vengeful God.

As soon as I read the Bible, all I saw was narrow minded, violent and uniformed decisions being conducted in the name of God. But, I have to admit, Jesus is another story. While I believe that Scripture has been used for political purposes for ages, and that either that God is a poor representation of God, or as the gnostics based on the Nag Hammadi library, which I also read in depth when I finally got a computer, the God depicted is simply not THE God, doesn't matter to me.

I believe Jesus came from the real God, and depicted the message of selfless love. The opposite of greed and serving self, his message was a willingness to sacrifice oneself for others. He is the fireman rushing in to save the baby, and risking death. He is the person who gives until it hurts to help his neighbor in need. No human logic will take Jesus from me. If he's just a fairy tale, God will have to gently reveal the truth. The Holy Trinity to me is God, God's Word, and God's Love. But, I don't like the Bible, and argued with quite a few priests in my teenage years. And even went so far as to read their dusty old theologian books in the Church library to see how and why they, and various other denominations felt as they did.

Originally posted by firegoggles
reply to post by nj2day

 

I want to thank you for this post. It has boosted my faith in the God of the Bible even MORE!

This thread helps me understand why God exists in three persons. It points to Jesus!

This website is more proof that the God of the Bible exists we just don't want to admit.

The whole alien thing. I mean really how many times do you need to be told down through the ages that Fallen Angels/Demons/etc.. are the same beings spoke of in Genesis, that provoked a DNA war. And ages later the story is with us along with evidence of the war itself...again this site is proof of that.

Thanks for helping build my faith even more in The God of the Bible. He ROCKS!

Regards,
FG

[edit on 27-11-2008 by firegoggles]

Out of curiosity... which God of the bible would you be referring to ?

The God from genesis ? - Elohim (melakh Elohim; messenger of God)

The God of the Hebrews - Yahweh (The tetragrammaton)

The God of Psalms - El

(El Shud-die) One of the names of the Maker of the Universe. Means 'God of all.'

Jehovah Nissi ? .. I could go on.

But honestly, doesnt all of the above prove that the bible is peoples subjective views on the same obvious source and center ?

Yahweh was a very angry demanding God, whereas El in Psalms is a god who is loving and caring. Do you really think God has mood swings ?

Wow! How sad for you. I will not dignify this rubbish with an answer for you just don't get it.
God is God and when you face Him on judgement day, there will be no words or questions from you. His presence will say it all.
I'm quite tired of stating the obvious to those who would defy reason.

We can say the same for satan... he has different names.... and appears as a snake an angel of light and a lion seeking to devour.... does that mean there is more than one devil???? does he have multiple personalities as well????

If scripture can not scientifically prove the existance of God then it certainly can not disprove it. I think the religions of the world are not the word of God but mans interpretation of that word. So it is flawed. That realm can not be explained here. It is like explaining the 3 physical dimension to a two dimensional creature if one existed. So terms like omnipotent and omnipresence may be used to explain something that is unexplainable to us.

For most of us, we are born with the notion of a supreme being. Caves drawings thoughout the world have depictions of gods and supreme beings which suggest that isolated pockets of man worldwide, throughout time, believed in a higher power. Virtually every culture has or had some form of a religious belief. I think that it is inate in most of us, like an instinct but obviously not in all of us (this is not a reference to athiest but to those that are truly evil).

The nuances of the world religions is insignificant but the code in how we conduct ourselves and treat others is common ground for those that believe and also atheist who don't. What makes us want to be charitable and help those in need, to feed a hungry person, give a few bucks to the homeless. ETC.? Why do we feel better after doin so?

I believe that we were born with this programming and it was given to us from someone or something, call it what you will. I believe that an athiest who is charitable may find themselves by Gods side in the afterlife while a Christian who denied others may find themselves away from God. Neverless, have a Happy Thanksgiving and excuse my rant and carry on with the debate.