Evidence in Scripture disproving god once and for all

reply to post by badmedia


So you dont live in a christian country or went to a christian school then I take it?


You would also think all those countries that were conquered and had christianity forced on them, would have arrived at the same conclusions as christians before that or does your god only show himself to a select group?


[edit on 27-11-2008 by Horus12]

The fallacy among many comes in the interpretations. The translator is traitor, in your case, as in my case, as in all cases. First off while purportedly being of a monotheistic faith, the roots of Judeo- Christianity are not monotheistic. In Genesis, for instance the words used are Eloi and Elohim both of which translate out to mean "Lord". However, the latter word, Elohim is plural, meaning, of course, more than one. It is this Elohim of which it is written ushered in the 6 days of creation. Although how long that took is silent as the first day could not be measured like most days as that would require a sun or moon to reference and the sun had not even come about yet. The BIBLE of the Judeo- Christian IS NOT the Word of the Lord as has been most falsely propogated over time. More correctly, it is the inspired Word of the Lord. The idea that God could create a weight more heavy than he could lift is laughable on 2 fronts. The Lord of the BIBLE is considered androgenous and without form, though the Lord have ocassionally put on forms as though a garment. To consider Omniescence. Man views time in panoramic slices of the eternal now, whereas the Lord of the BIBLE view the whole, note here that "a year is as a day to the Lord", which implies that it is impossible for man's senses to properly grasp time as it truly functions beyond what we can already understand it to be- which hasn't changed much since we first discovered the concept, well before the first letters of the BIBLE were even written. Foolish concepts like Satan and Hell came along with the Gnostics, Christians, and those 200+ other pesky little splinter groups. As for proof of Jesus (a name most false- the fact that they even call their most holy man Jesus is beyond me, it is more precisely, Yeshua) there were over 2000 Yeshua's living in the time of King Herod as I understand it. You challenged the Lord of the BIBLE, you'd have done better to challenge Yeshua(or Jesus). The Lord of the BIBLE was the Lord of the Ancients (those pesky Pagans) repackaged and given to a then modern time. That Lord was based on testimony of every Ancient tribe or society who claimed their knowledge was not given to them by their forefathers as was tradition, but by those who from the heavens to earth came in divine vessels with divine weapons, then proceeded to give them the "firsts" for every known society used even today, down to the clock on your wall or the watch on your arm. To the surgery you get from a doctor and the law that regulates how and when he performs it. You can not debunk this overnight knowledge they gained so you can not so easily dismiss or debunk the source they claim to have obtained it from. You can debate whether it be dreams, imaginings, psychosis, alien, advanced human, monkey, or ethereal, but you can not claim to have proven by quoting a few verses taken out of context, literal or otherwise, and string your absolutes on it, because the fact is, caves one day- empires the next. If you want to argue they shouldn't lump all dieties into one, fine. But the Lord of the BIBLE is rooted in something or someone real, as real as the sudden knowledge of man. As for hell, Christians created that. You can't base GOD arguments on schisms and divisions, when history, additions, and rewrites go to the dogmatic victors.

[edit on 27-11-2008 by PhyberDragon]

Originally posted by Horus12
reply to post by badmedia

 

So you dont live in a christian country or went to a christian school then I take it?


You would also think all those countries that were conquered and had christianity forced on them, would have arrived at the same conclusions as christians before that or does your god only show himself to a select group?

I am not your normal hate filled christian who actually follow and do evil.

I grew up in the bible belt. Seen first hand all the hypocrisy. When I was growing up, I would not dare go to someone's house and tell their parents I was not a christian. No freaking way. I tried to believe it, but all I seen was hypocrisy and ignorance among the people who did.

I completely rejected the idea of god. I hated having to say I was a christian.

At the age of 17 I got sent christian group home while in state custody. They almost kicked me out and accused me of starting up an occult because I made little yen-yang necklaces and gave them away. They had this big deal where I wasn't allowed to wear my necklace on the outside, but people could wear crosses. And in the end, rather than just allow me to wear mine, they made everyone keep their necklaces tucked in. I refused to say christian prayer before meals, and I was forced to eat last every time. And I gave 1 weak minded kid nightmares for messing with me. They seriously accused me of being a devil worshiper - as was popular at the time. Only reason I didn't get kicked out(and sent to juvy) was because I pointed out the fact that I never once got into any trouble or broke any rules etc. I didn't really have any religious views at the time, I just thought the yen-yang symbol looked cool, and gave them to friends.

Lets just say I have dealt with them more than most.

I was then atheist until I figured I am in a pretty limited perspective. It would be pretty silly for me to assume there is no god just because a bunch of people make claims about him that seem crazy. So I became agnostic - I didn't know 1 way or another, and I didn't figure anybody else did either.

And then I started to seek the truth on my own. When you seek you will find. I was looking for god - not looking to disprove god. And then I was shown the truth. After being shown the truth, i recognized that Jesus was saying the same things and showed how to follow the truth I learned.

That is how I became a christian. Btw, those hypocrite Christians hate me more than they hate you.

Originally posted by badmedia
It's called critical reasoning. It is the only possible way for free will to exist.

No its not...

Critical thinking consists of mental processes of discernment, analysis and evaluation. It includes possible processes of reflecting upon a tangible or intangible item in order to form a solid judgment that reconciles scientific evidence with common sense

Yes you can. Because when you put your mind to it, you figure out a way and a path to accomplish it.

so I take it you are conceding the point in your previous post where you mentioned free will?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Obviously you are speaking merely of current theories in science. It is as they are able to understand it, nevermind the fact they near refuse to include consciousness as a factor as science is ill suited to handle anything beyond action and reaction, where as consciousness is not subject to such laws and brings reasons, understanding and choice. Anytime something can not be repeated over and over in a lab, science rejects it and consciousness doesn't follow it. The closest attempts are in psychology, which also avoids consciousness in favor of finding behavior patterns.

Need I remind you that psychology is a science too?

You are in all at once. It is your perspective/senses which provide only a single view.

Ok, I'm just going to give you this, since you didn't read like I suggested... What you are talking about is alternate universes...

Dimensions are completely different...

Typical - attack the person instead of debating the points made. I said quantum physics only started to stumble on to this, not that they had all the answers yet.

I can't debate a point that is so off base it doesn't make since... but now maybe that I explained you weren't talking about dimensions, but alternate universes, we can get somewhere.

But, Multiverse and alternate universes are pure conjecture as well, and it turns into a battle of opinion based on the conjecture of others.

I got my answers from that which you says does not exist, because in your tiny and very limited perception you have take the arrogant view that anything not present in you must not exist. There is another species on this planet that does this, it's called an ostrich.

Funny, I was going to say the same about you... how else can you ignore scientific facts and logical arguments that prove your ideas to be incorrect if you weren't burying your head int he sand...

Thanks for insulting me again.

You make it so easy though... That video is about dimensions, not alternate universes... but Carl Sagan is one of my favorites... I sprung for the whole Cosmos DVD set when it came out a few years ago...

Since this video is about a different topic than you are discussing, do I have to point out why it doesn't support your argument?

You are not here for discussion, you are here to ridicule that which you do not understand based on your own assumptions. Nobody can change a fool from his ways.

On the contrary, I am here for intelligent discussion... look back a page or two, I complimented a believer and even starred the post. Maybe you should find it... so you know the type of discussion I am looking for.

Don't bother replying unless you can show a bit of respect towards other peoples opinions and reply with substance instead of replying to ridiculous assumptions you've made on your own.

erm... its my thread dude...

And for the record... I do NOT have to respect the beliefs of others... Instead, I am obligated to respect the right of the individual to believe what they want...

there is a subtle difference.

Originally posted by Horus12
You would also think all those countries that were conquered and had christianity forced on them, would have arrived at the same conclusions as christians before that or does your god only show himself to a select group?

The select group dogma is just something the hypocrites have. Jesus says if you do not hear his words, you will hear the words of the father(that is who I heard). The religions of the world in teaching all teach the same basic things as far as gods law. The idols(messengers) change from culture to culture, but the general lesson remains the same.

It is those who focus on the idols and not the teachings who fight and say only their way is the true way.

Jesus btw is constantly arguing with the hypocrites of his time, in the same ways - they keep trying to get him to conform to their authority and traditions, he refuses. It is only gods laws that matter, not mans laws.

Look at the paul vs jesus thread here, long discussion on this stuff.

reply to post by badmedia


try reading the book of job.... this happend before jesus was alive... before religion... yet he chose to believe in god.... and yes there are
men who have been raised from a baby to hate and taught to kill...and when exposed to the Bible have changed.... the need to know god is in us all.... the emptiness that nothing can fill... sadly more and more refuse to hear ..... all are called... but few choose to hear....

reply to post by nj2day


You said in one of your posts "So he allows people to be born specifically to be damned? what kind of god is that?"

I just had to toss in a reply here, regarding this, and I won't really get into the rest of the discussion yet.

But there's one thing that most people don't think about when it comes to God of the bible, and free will, and that is the events that took place when the israelites were leaving Egypt...

God sent moses to give the pharaoh the "let my people go" messages, and "God hardened the heart of Pharaoh against him".


Yea, there's a GREAT example of free will, there...


Not only did God send Moses to deliver the message, he sent it KNOWING that HE was going to harden the heart of the pharaoh against the message, AND THEN PUNISHED THE NATION FOR IT. Over and over again. Including the wiping out of completely innocent children, who had commited no worse sin than to be born an egyptian, BY GODS DECREE.

Why by his decree? Doesn't he decide before we're born who we're going to be?

It's all completely ridiculous and absolutely wrong, and yet people expect folks to uncritically bow down and worship a God of that nature. And that's not counting the rest of the things you can find in the bible.

reply to post by badmedia


My point was without being aware of its existence, would a christian still be a christian, I think not. The OP was about dis-proving the christian god as in the bible.

Now whether any god exists remains to be seen and your entitled to your beliefs, its religion as a whole I disagree with, not the concept of a god. Religion has be tainted by man, manipulated by man and written by man and there lies the problem.

I live my life in a way, not to dis-similar to some religious folk, I have empathy for others, Im not a criminal, I dont go out of my way to hurt others, I try to be honest and help out when needed, but I dont feel the need to do it in the name of a god.

But as I said the OP's argument was about disproving a christian god using the bible, not an easy task but kudos for trying.

Originally posted by PhyberDragon
You can't base GOD arguments on schisms and divisions, when history, additions, and rewrites go to the dogmatic victors.

I was careful to word it that a supreme being as described by the bible cannot exist.

I fully respect your position, as the original documents the bible was written from, may not contain these contradictions.

My point is that you can have a supreme being, or you can have the bible (as it stands today). But you cannot have both.

As far as disproving a supreme being all together... Russell's teapot tells all:

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

[edit on 27-11-2008 by nj2day]

reply to post by Jomina


Great example that I hadn't even thought to include!

I think we're going to get along here rather well

reply to post by iismtivu


Job was not around before religion.

Religion has been around since man first looked up, and saw the sun burning in the sky...

sun worship is the first form of religion...

Originally posted by nj2day
No its not...

Critical thinking consists of mental processes of discernment, analysis and evaluation. It includes possible processes of reflecting upon a tangible or intangible item in order to form a solid judgment that reconciles scientific evidence with common sense

What I mean is that anything less than all possibilities existing means free will does not exist. As you are merely on the tracks.

Critical thinking is how I come to these understandings with a bit of help from that which you says does not exist.

so I take it you are conceding the point in your previous post where you mentioned free will?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

You just said you put your mind to it. That means you put your will towards it. That means you found a path to it.

Need I remind you that psychology is a science too?

Yes and that is why it ignores consciousness. Psychology is the study of behavior patterns, not consciousness. Philosophy is not a science, but understandings gained about consciousness based on critical reasoning. I think therefore I am.

Ok, I'm just going to give you this, since you didn't read like I suggested... What you are talking about is alternate universes...

Dimensions are completely different...

There is really only 1 universe. We think of them as alternate and seperate because they aren't in our reality. But they are all connected and part of a single universe. Call it a multi-verse I guess, but it's really just 1 universe.

I can't debate a point that is so off base it doesn't make since... but now maybe that I explained you weren't talking about dimensions, but alternate universes, we can get somewhere.

But, Multiverse and alternate universes are pure conjecture as well, and it turns into a battle of opinion based on the conjecture of others.

Remember in the flatland video where the 3d person is able to push a single imprint into flatland? And the 2d creature is only able to see a 2d imprint? Well, that is what you get of 4d - a single 3d imprint. Alternate universes just sees it instead of dimensions like that, as another flatland right next to the other.

Funny, I was going to say the same about you... how else can you ignore scientific facts and logical arguments that prove your ideas to be incorrect if you weren't burying your head int he sand...

I don't ignore them. Far from it. I just don't keep my perspective so narrow as to only accept that. I understanding my limitations in perspective, but can overcome them for a distance by continuing existing patterns beyond what I can see. Exactly how you are able to understand the basic concept of 4d. You can't see 4d, but you can understand the concept of going from 2d to 3d and applying it further to understanding 4d.

How else do you think science and things advance?

erm... its my thread dude...

Community thread, you just started it. And as you did not just throw insults, I'm responding.

And for the record... I do NOT have to respect the beliefs of others... Instead, I am obligated to respect the right of the individual to believe what they want...

there is a subtle difference.

I think the word you are looking for is you do not have to agree with the beliefs of others. I would agree, you do not. Nor should you. It's about understanding, not what you are able to repeat. Respecting the persons right to individual belief is a step ahead of most people though.

reply to post by AshleyD

The way I see it and the briefest answer possible is when you take the entirety of Scripture into consideration, both have a bit of truth to them. Which leads me to believe it's not an either/or extreme but an accommodation of both principles to reach the truth.

"Come aboard the theist but on the 302-ambiguity to fuzzy-logicville."

I doubt you wanna debate but if you did I'd be right here.

[edit on 27/11/2008 by Good Wolf]

Originally posted by Horus12
reply to post by badmedia

 

My point was without being aware of its existence, would a christian still be a christian, I think not. The OP was about dis-proving the christian god as in the bible.

Now whether any god exists remains to be seen and your entitled to your beliefs, its religion as a whole I disagree with, not the concept of a god. Religion has be tainted by man, manipulated by man and written by man and there lies the problem.

I live my life in a way, not to dis-similar to some religious folk, I have empathy for others, Im not a criminal, I dont go out of my way to hurt others, I try to be honest and help out when needed, but I dont feel the need to do it in the name of a god.

But as I said the OP's argument was about disproving a christian god using the bible, not an easy task but kudos for trying.

In teachings yes. In who they use and how these truths are expressed, then no.

Following the commandments is the main thing that matters. When people talk of Jesus, it is because his life was the example of someone who followed the commandments. He was much different than those at the time and the laws they followed, but he said he did not come to change the laws but to fulfil them. Which means he came to bring understanding on how they were to be followed correctly.

Commandments = gods law. The rest = man's laws and traditions.

Heaven basically consists of people who are like Jesus, not like the Christians you see running around in his name doing things opposite of what Jesus said.

Ask yourself. In the perfect society - how would man have to treat each other to live in peace, without crime and so on? You will come up with pretty much the life of Jesus. But if 1 person doesn't do it, then it can't happen. That is why not everyone is allowed into heaven, it's not done as punishment as they would tell you, it's done to protect those who do live as such.

God and such is something you really need to experience for yourself. Everyone needs their own vision. If you seek truth, it will happen eventually, but you will have to be honest with yourself and have pure heart/intent. For me, it was completely unexpected and out of the blue.

If you seek you will find, so be very sure of what you are seeking. If you are merely looking for ways to disprove god, you will find things that seem to support that.

It's really not what you think it is. What is done in his name is not always a reflection of Jesus. For example, I do not like the church at all and make no apologies for it.

Originally posted by nj2day
Luke 1:37
For nothing is impossible with God.

the starter.

1) If god is Omnipotent, can he make an object so heavy he cannot lift it himself?

Does God see weight the way we see it? If being Omnipotent, that would mean creating all physical properties even gravity - if you are the creator of gravity, the question of lifting an object is irrelevant, you have created the physical properties that support the question.

2) Free will: If god is Omniscient, than he knows your future. If he knows your future, than it is already set in stone (if your future changed, god would cease to be omniscient). Therefore Free will cannot exist... Which can't be true, since the bible is the infallible word of god, and says we are created free.

From christimv -
3. Yes, He knows the saved and unsaved. Again back to #2 above, just because God knows the future does not mean it was not all your choosing.
I will also add, as also said on here from others that, God knows all possible futures in advance, he knows your end fate as well, the path you choose is yours.

5) If god is Omniscient, knowing what will happen in the future, than he can not use his omnipotence to change the outcome... As he is powerless to change the outcome of future events, he is not Omnipotent.

If God does anything directly to "change the path of anything" isn't that a choice that takes in account for all possible outcomes of all existence? - basically omnipotence would still exist, but the "divine intervention" is already accounted as a possible outcome.

1) God, bound by his own omniscience is completely powerless to do anything but watch events unfold.

IF you know every possible outcome, why can't their be "change" - by change I mean, the direct cause being God, not a chain of cause & effects that trace back to God, - God would then again know the future based off this "change" -
note* - If all possible outcomes are known, then yes, I agree there can be no surprises - but what a human on earth see's as change, and what God sees as change are 2 different things.

edit: - Is this a false dilemma? is their only 2 choices to the OP?

[edit on 27-11-2008 by juveous]

reply to post by badmedia


Im going off OP's topic slightly here but, I dont follow the commandments, I do what I think is best and right for my situation, lets not get that mixed up with religion you believe in.

If you believe in god fair enough, but theres no need for the other crap that comes with it. Communicate in simple english and not using someone you cant even prove real.

To show love, compassion and empathy I dont need to reference a non entity or a book, I can do it through simple actions and plain words. Theres no need to tell stories or try to convince someone that something they cant see or touch is there. Blind faith will not get you answers and I certainly do not need to experience god. I am more than happy without it.

I am comfortable in the knowledge that one day I will die and I do not need to believe I will have a "god" judge me.

I seek knowledge and truth and in your religion lies neither.

[edit on 27-11-2008 by Horus12]

Originally posted by Horus12
Im going off OP's topic slightly here but, I dont follow the commandments, I do what I think is best and right for my situation, lets not get that mixed up with religion you believe in.

If you believe in god fair enough, but theres no need for the other crap that comes with it. Communicate in simple english and not using someone you cant even prove real.

To show love, compassion and empathy I dont need to reference a non entity or a book, I can do it through simple actions and plain words. Theres no need to tell stories or try to convince someone that something they cant see or touch is there. Blind faith will not get you answers and I certainly do not need to experience god. I am more than happy without it.

I am comfortable in the knowledge that one day I will die and I do not need to believe I will have a "god" judge me.

I seek knowledge and truth and in your religion lies neither.

I bet you follow the commandments more than you realize. There is a difference in teh commandments and mans law.

The crap that comes with it are from people who don't understand. How would you like it if you were judged based on the actions of people who didn't understand and not your own actions? Not really fair is it?

No you don't need a book for that. The stories are there to provide understanding.

God doesn't actually judge people. You are judged only on what you judge others on.

Truth is - god is part of you, you part of god. And unless you understand that, then you do not understand my religion and have no insight into if it gives truth or not. As I mentioned, I found truth outside the bible and then seen it repeated inside. You are simply judging me based on the actions of others, and what other people say and do.

reply to post by Horus12


Indeed. We are all born with a built-in categorical imperative, the things which motivate us to act. What we dictate as "good" and "bad" come from our moral imperative which we build over our childhood up to around the age of 14-15. What is right or wrong in our eyes is adopted from society around us, not some book. This is also the reason that people in the age of the Old Testament didn't think much of their Barbarism.

heres all i have to say to this
you dont want to believe in God, fine
i am not going to waste my time
but if you or anything tries to deny my
right to believe..we have a problem
dont try to force me to accept
your world view
it all comes down to faith
either you have it or you dont
...you a gambling man?
then lay your money down

reply to post by GRANDWORLDDRAMA


Firstly I dont see how posting a viewpoint on a forum can force you to change your beliefs, I also fail to see how I or anyone else could possibly force our worldviews on you. You have not been forced to read this thread.

And what is it exactly you want me to gamble on or commit too?