I Spy On...the Government. A Patriot Act Revision.

Control, control, control...

Let's control the controllers... don't let the controllers control us...


Does anyone else see what the problem really is?


Peace

You don't want to creat another beaucracracy. I agree with some folks that we must stick with our constitution that insures the check and balance. If President Bush can slip things in bills for the congress to pass and to pardon himself and his administration for possible war crimes which means the Congress is not doing his job. If the congress is not doing the job then why are they there, wasting our taxes. We must eliminate them. Today technology has progressed to a point that we can vote on every issue from home. Gone are the days when communication and transportation was a problem and some one had to represent us in Washington. As a matter of fact, we don't even need representatives in State level either. Lets eliminate them all and the associated cost. And lets consider voting on every issue through computer once a month. This is just my 2 cents worth of thought.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by charlie0]

reply to post by charlie0

You don't want to creat another beaucracracy.

I don't think it is beaucracy my friend . We are not talking about government stepping into private sector shoes. We are talking about private sector stepping into government shoes.

I am not for making government bigger in any way. Unfortunately, I believe that will be our downfall. But if these powers are already in place, why not and try to take advantage and keep these politicians a.k.a. professional liars in their place. If they know we are spying on them maybe it will keep them from lieing to us.

In my opinion this whole dilemma boils down to one serious flaw in what our government, and really our country as a whole, has evolved into. As was pointed out, the Constitution provides a blueprint for implementing a government that has checks and balances which prevent one specific branch from possessing enough power to override the other branches. Unfortunately many politicians, President Bush being a primary example, have found ways of circumventing those checks and balances. His attempt to pardon himself represents exactly what I am talking about.

The problem we have today is that accountability seems to have been set aside in exchange for a society where far too many people live under the philosophy that it is easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission. So they do what they want without consideration of and/or regard for the consequences of their actions. And when those consequences come back to bite them in the rear end they merely have to pull out some excuse or accuse others for their faults, and then they wind up with but a slap on the wrist.

The media is supposed to be holding the government accountable. The different branches of the government are supposed to be holding each other accountable. And the people are supposed to be holding the government and the media accountable. Sadly it doesn't appear that any of those things are happening, and in some cases I question whether they are even possible anymore. For example, with the way that the major news networks seem to pander to the political party of their choice, even serving as a mouthpiece for them, they lack the neutral perspective to question actions taken by politicians. Investigative reporters now face so many secrecy and "national security" hurdles that I can't imagine how difficult it is to actually dig into questionable actions that are going on within the government. Billions of dollars are spent on things we, the people, don't know about, and yet we are helpless to object to it once the money leaves our possession. Trillions of our dollars are being distributed by the Federal Reserve, and we have no way of learning who that money is going to be handed out to. We have our hands tied, the government holds pretty much all the cards, and so those of us who are the common citizens are stuck with either accepting what our government does, risk our welfare by protesting, or being labeled as crazy kooks by stirring up theories that are based on what little information we do have.

How do we hold them accountable? The idea of a citizen run watchdog organization is a great one. But, bottom line, with all of the red tape, national security bull crap, and self-serving politicians monopolizing the government, would such an organization really be able to accomplish much? I'm to the point now where I believe that the only way we, the people, can really instigate some sort of major change in this country is through two scenarios. Either the people mobilize and revolt. Or we dig in and prepare for the worst, which I feel quite strongly is going to be a war of some kind that will result in huge changes for the country. Whether or not those changes will be positive ones is something we can only wait to see.

reply to post by open_eyeballs
WAKE THE FRICK UP.

www.whodidit.org...

Theres a possiblity that 911 was a manipulated staged event perpetrated by either the US Government or a fraction of the US GOVERNMENT.

It's the old PROBLEM, REACTION, SOLUTION scam to manipulate people.

Create a PROBLEM (911 - enemy out to get us) No matter that our governemnt might have committed this act.

Cultivate a REACTION (OMG Our enemies are out to get us we got to invade, theres weapons of mass destruction (proven a lie) and all the rest of the garbage. "They" got the American People worked up much like a lynching mob and it worked, most Americans were so fricking gullable they never questioned who really "did it". "Oh I'll gladly give up my freedom and liberty for my dear sweet old government to protect me from the big bad wolves" (WAKE UP - Some of the wolves were wearing sheeps clothing).

SOLUTION: Foster a reaction that will make everyone you are manipulating see your solution as the most logical and workable one. And yes folks, The American people were so stupid most of them swallowed it hook line and sinker not wanting to believe that their "public servants" would ever screw them over.

I maintain that our very own government had a hand in 911. I believe further that President Bush knew about it and probably signed off on it.

Some people will do anything and I mean anything to carry out their agenda. Some people do not play "by the rules" but make up their own rules as they go along.

WAKE UP.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by ofhumandescent]

Interesting topic so I flagged it. But the PA doesn’t need to be changed, it needs to be abolished and we need something that doesn’t trump rights given to us by the Bill of Rights to replace it.

You might find this thread I made about it interesting.

Has the Patriot Act affected you?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by open_eyeballs


Text Purple
I think this is a great idea, although the feds would never let it happen.

reply to post by ofhumandescent


[[sigh]] [shakes head and slouches]

Firstly, your way off topic.

Second before you go around shouting at people to "wake the frick up", i think you should look in the mirror and slap yourself back to reality.

Whether or not there was some governmental hand in the 9/11 pie or (enron scandal) has nothing to do with this.

The patriot act is here right this second. It is not in the works or in the "pipeline." This is not a preventative measure or a reactive measure.

This little proposal is to check the U.S. government in every way. Congress passed an unconstitutional bill. Period. So, what can we do about it? We can whine and complain about it all day long. We can say "duuhhh George Bush did it Waldo and Im a wanna be conspiracy theorist who does no research but watches youtube movies and then repeats it on abovetopsecret.com...dduuuhhh"

or.

We can turn an unconstitutional bill into something that the people can benefit from. We can make sure of real accountability. We can weed out the snakes on their turf.

That is what this is about.

Nothing else. Get it?

[edit on 19-11-2008 by open_eyeballs]

Istill would love to hear from someone that knows a little bit about legislation and if something along these lines is truly viable in the real world.

I haven' found anything that says it is unconstitutional or illegal.

If someone can chime in on this aspect it would be greatly appreciated.

This has got to be the best idea I have ever heard!! The only difficult part I think would be to get your government to go through with it.

Give up privacy? Hell no. It is ridiculous to even rationalize that our rights are okay to barter off for so-called security or 'our own good.'

We deserve and are afforded a reasonable expectation of privacy and to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures. Thank you 4th Amendment!

Seemingly, Congressional leaders haven't read or even perused the Constitution in awhile.

Hey, i love the thread but i don't think even state or local governments are ever to be trusted to tell us the truth, especially considering how much federal funding they receive. they would be just as vulnerable to manipulation as a media outlet that depends on advertising money for survival. however the good news is that we the people already have the right to spy on the government, the 10th ammendment says all powers not specifically given to the federal government is delegated to the states and the people respectively. so for example if the federal government wants to spy on you, they have to either get a warrant and have probable cause and such or create the "patriot" act to give that power to them since that power is not specifically given in the constitution, but we the people have always had the right to whatever we want so long as it doesn't violate the local, state, or federal law. so basically the constitution prohibits the government from doing things, not the people. if you want to spy on the government the only thing stopping you is a justified fear of what you might really find out. you already have the right.

The cure for too much of something usually is not more of it.

We can't solve the problem of too much government by adding more government. I'm also curious as to how you think this would cost "next to nothing".

I like the intent of this idea, but I also think it's the wrong way to go about it. I wish I had some insight on the right way, but I don't.

reply to post by Unit541


I will post a previous answer to that question.

I don't think it is beaucracy my friend . We are not talking about government stepping into private sector shoes. We are talking about private sector stepping into government shoes.

I am not for making government bigger in any way. Unfortunately, I believe that will be our downfall. But if these powers are already in place, why not and try to take advantage and keep these politicians a.k.a. professional liars in their place. If they know we are spying on them maybe it will keep them from lieing to us.

And I also stated in a previous post the p.i.s will not get paid. It is simple the way I see it. So cost would only come by time of a committee of each state. In other words, the politicians that would make up the committee are already being paid. So there really is no cost. No new employees and no new beauracray. Just access to the same information the CIA and FBI has to us. Except reversed of course.

There could be a variety of different investigators. Individual or group investigative journalists could be given access. I assure you people would be jumping at the bit to have that kind of access. And I will reiterate. The standards for security would be of a military level. They would not be allowed to share anything in public without being shared with the state first. Therefor, any national security secrets could still be close guarded.

There is all kinds of details that would have to be worked out.

I am still hoping to hear from someone with state legislation knoweledge.

reply to post by open_eyeballs


Unfortunatly I have no legal knowledge as an attorney as you requested and this is matched by my lack of knowledge on US government issues being from Scotland. As an outsider i would like to advice the following :

Dont waste energy trying to plug a hole in a sinking ship with chewing gum. Your PTB are IMO going to play very very dirty when you realy start showing that you have all had enough of their power-mongering and slashing of your rights. When that time comes it is your brother citizens that you need to depend on, NOT another level of government. I think anyone considering such an idea needs a fresh reality kick up the backside. Find your allies on your street, your neighbours that you trust with your life and your strength in those militias that are coming to the fore.

Deep down you all realise that the time for relying on any part of government whether local or federal is way past. Accept it, gather strength from your neighbours and be ready.

The time for the OPs suggestion was long long ago.

Respects

It is my belief and opinion only that, what you inquire seems to be a nice idea. Too bad it's impossible. From a small group of friends, gangs, drug and arms dealers, small business and the like through to local, state, federal, and international governments, corporations, conglomerates, cartels and the like, the vast majority of individuals/ entities are corrupt or corrupted (wittingly or not) towards profits, power, prestige, influence, etc. which center around their own ideas or interests (or are manipulated by those of others). What difference is there between Crips/ Bloods and Democrats/ Republicans. They all have their own agendas, signs, symbols, rituals, regalia, and what not. Some major in certain areas, some in others, but they all follow an elaborate hiearchy where noone really sits at the pinnacle of hierarchy, but rather (as with wolf societies) is led by more of an alpha of the moment- where even a delta of the pack or system can wield full authority as long as it benefits the whole overall. Objectively they believe the natural order of things leave the weak of the breed dispensable. To watch them watchiong you watching them is the best you can do. To overturn any or all of these systems is simply to convince (and reasonably so) others that you offer a better path to better profits on many levels for such pack or system(s) or create an equitable rival pack or system. Ie. You can't fight corporate synthetic drug industries unless you counter them with equitable natural drug industries (of course to do so you can't call them drugs) To spy on the spyer is moot. They can only see you because you can see or know they see you and yet you do nothing. To reverse this you must give the spy incentive to report to you instead of another. Or else overwhelm and dillute the information until even a supercomputer would bog down trying to decipher it. Remember as in crime or fighting if you can't overcome- overwhelm. Think about it. If you know there will always be at least one piece of evidence left at a crime scene and that the perpetrator always returns to the scene of a crime, then leave an armada of false and misleading evidences of vast types and quantities and don't ever look back or return to the area. Same with info wars.