Bible Contradiction...

If Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Jesus of the New, then why do they seem so different? One appears mean and angry, the other forgiving and loving. One full of judgment; the other overflowing mercy. Why the contradiction?

I found understanding to what appears to be a paradox in the Bible; a contradiction, in the true story of a child who decided he wanted to be like his dad. The boy was about 12 when he decided that he wanted to start drinking beer, because his father drank all the time. His mother, being a good mom, didn’t want to see her son develop the same bad habit as her husband, so she went along with it. She agreed to let him drink, but she told him that he could drink only if he drank the same amount as his dad; a six pack. The first couple weren’t that bad, but the more he drank, the worse he felt, and he decided he didn’t want to finish the last couple of beers, but his mother reminded him of the agreement, and he choked down the last two cans. Just as she expected, he ended up barfing it all up and from that time up into his mid forties when he told the story, he could hardly even look at a can of beer without feeling nauseated. In fact, he never drank again.

By now you’re probably saying, “Where in the world is he going with this?” But just stay with me a minute…

The Old Testament is all about showing us Gods expectations and our inability to meet them. YOU MUST BE PERFECTLY HOLY. And if you weren’t people got to see judgment, but it wasn’t always that way. When the children of Israel were lead out of Egypt, it wasn’t because they were good enough. It was Amazing Grace! Yet, just like every other religion in the world where people think they can buy heaven or perfection with good works, the children of Israel wanted something to do; religion. They asked for the law. Human nature asks for a law. Every religion in the world is a reflection of human nature that thinks it can change himself and somehow become better, but you know what? No matter how many eagle feathers a crow puts on, he’ll never be an eagle. You must be born again. You can’t buy the righteousness of heaven with good works. My good works… your good works, smell like dirty rotten filthy stinking rags in comparison to the beautiful fragrance of Gods awesome holiness!

"For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
--ROMANS 6:23

Believe it or not, to try and find acceptance from God by good works is called sin, and the wages are death. You can’t buy holiness with good works! The blood of Jesus Christ is not for sale! It is a GIFT!!!

Imagine that you owed the mafia millions of dollars and you make minimum wage… (What is it now, $7.00 an hour?) You have 2 hours to pay up or else you get friendly visit from Vinney and his buddy Tommy; Tommy gun that is. You’re running around your house in a nervous panic, mumbling, crying, and trying in vain to come up with a plan to save yourself. All the while the phone is ringing, but you won’t answer. You think it’s your mafia buddies, but in fact it is a friend of yours who is calling to tell you that your brother decided to make a deposit into your account to cover the debt. All you have to do is write the check, or take Vinney and his buddy to the bank. The phone rings and rings as you pace back and forth gnawing away at your fingernails, when suddenly there comes a knock at the door.

Just KNOWING what you already have in your account would set you free. Hey, guess what? Knowledge ispower! So “deny ignorance”, and look into your account. A deposit has been made. A gift, but if you never get the message, judgment stands at the door.

Have you figured out the analogy yet? Just in case the answer is no…

2000 thousand years of trying to be holy, and still, when Jesus Christ appeared, God in flesh, He found some self-righteous hypocrites who thought they were good enough! (Maybe they didn’t finish the six pack.) The Old Testament was intended to show man how unholy; how unlike God he really is. Every act of judgment that was recorded in the Bible; every death, every stoning, branded deeply into the minds of every witness, of every believer, that the consequences of sin are severe! It was intended to make every partaker sick enough to barf spiritually! As I said before, it is in every religion, and even non-religious people, to be good. By nature, we ALL want to be the good guy, right? Those that are religious believe that good works will somehow purchase a heavenly afterlife, not knowing that the Creator of Heaven and Earth calls it SIN. Ignorant to the fact that even on their very best day, without the blood of Jesus Christ, there life is nothing but a stomach turning putrid stench! Yet, it has never even entered the heart or mind of man just how HOLY God is! His AWESOME purity and perfection is beyond human comprehension, and in order to spend eternity in His presence, you MUST be as Holy.

This is just the beginning of an incredible journey, but I like to put it this way;

There is only on sin left; to disbelieve that they are gone.

That’s right. When you look to Calvary, think of the cross as the burial site for sin. The sign on top reads, “Here lie the sins the whole world.” Now, you either believe that you’re just as Holy and righteous as God Himself by the Gift of Jesus Christ, or judgment stands at the door. It really is that simple, but that is just the beginning of a supernatural adventure. You heard me, just the beginning, and yes, the REAL thing is supernatural.

Don't settle for religion.

Get the REAL.

Jesus is not the God of the old testament, he is his son, as said over and over. The old testament shows how man can not truly do god without God's spirit dwelling in him, which could not happen previous to the death of Jesus because God could not dwell in sin, which all are guilty of. That is why God gave his prefect son, as a sacrifice for all the sins of the world. Jesus paid the wages of death for us, now we can repent in his name, and be cleansed of our sin, allowing God's spirit to dwell in us, after baptism and the laying on of hands. Through his spirit God can now work to fashion us, so that man can truly do good. Yes man has the tendency to do good and love, but it always selfishly motivated, or you would have not even heard about such acts of good, because it would have been done without recognition. With God's spirit it can be done totally selflessly.

“Jesus is not the God of the Old Testament, he is his son, as said over and over.”

doctorex, thank you for the feedback. I never really know what to expect when posting here on ATS, but I know it takes two to tango I have no desire to debate. If I did, I would have started a thread about the Godhead, but as an answer to the above quote, I state my position. If you desire to continue the discussion, you could start a thread on the topic. Thanks again.

“For unto us a child is born, ((JESUS)) unto us a son is given: ((JESUS)) and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God ((JESUS)), The everlasting Father((JESUS)), The Prince of Peace.” ((JESUS))
Isa 9:6


I do not believe in the trinity doctrine, yet even if you do believe in three gods, they would be divided if their natures were as unique as they seem to be from a human perspective.

To baptize in titles make Peter out to be a spiritual ignoramus since the last time he spoke with Jesus Christ he was told…
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" -Mat 28:19

So what does Peter do? He turns right around and teaches all nations…
"…Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." - Acts 2:38

Peter knew that son was no more a name than father; That the power and authority is in the name.

reply to post by apaulo

Don't settle for religion.

The Bible says otherwise:

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

reply to post by apaulo

To baptize in titles make Peter out to be a spiritual ignoramus since the last time he spoke with Jesus Christ he was told…
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" -Mat 28:19

So what does Peter do? He turns right around and teaches all nations…
"…Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." - Acts 2:38

Peter knew that son was no more a name than father; That the power and authority is in the name.

SSHHH! Over here....c'mon...

Everyone listen:

Here is a secret:

Apaulo left out the last verse of Matt 28, which would be verse 20 of Matt 28:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Wow ..good post ....I think I agree with alot of what you said ..(maybe not all ) but some of it ...

I certainly agree that God in the OT did his very best to show how that the wages of sin is death .and how lost we are without him and what the consequences of our actions can be like ......And that the rightousness of man is as filthy rags ..(The Priests and people of God did not do so good on their own did they ?) They are the same today ....mostly all apostate nowadays ..just like then .....

It also shows why so much happened to them back then ..and why so much judgment was sent by God to all peoples ....(Take notes he is a God who judges and you will be considered an enemy if you rebel against him )

Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.

It (the OT) also shows how it is impossible to serve God in the flesh ..which is why one must be born again from flesh (carnal minded thinking) to spiritually minded ...the word says God is spirit and we must worship him in spirit ...Jesus and his Holy Spirit must be in you in order to stand before God even with your prayers (as it is his HOLY spirit who makes intercession for you ) ........
Which is why I believe God sends out his messangers (All who believe) because it is the HOLY SPIRIT in them that draws the spirit in the unbeliever to the Lord (If that spirit filled believer is for real and not someone just going through the motions for selfish purposes) ..
So KEEP PRAYING for the UNBELIEVERS Christians ..your prayers will bring them to him ...if they are prayers for the lost I believe those prayers will be answered (See Rev 8:4 and 5)

Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all the saints.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

About being born again ......
The believer is not holy but the Holy Spirit within the believer is ..And it is the Holy Spirit nagging (Convicting) at your heart which is what brings the changes in your spirit and you really do become actually born again ...like a brand new baby ....only a spiritual one ...(In your heart mind and soul) ...
which makes it possible then to serve God *(as a child pure in heart and eyes all on daddy (Father God) ) ...you will seek then to please him and do his will not your own ...(the spirit helps you stop feeding that flesh and get it under subjection to just concentrait on spirit ) so you will be free of flesh (at least in charge of it instead of it being in charge of you ) ....It is the power of the Holy Spirit that does this from within you (from the very depths of your soul ) ....................you will CHANGE if you were ever truly born again ...no question about it ......and yes it will be noticeable by everyone you know ...and guess what ..you even lose friends (been there done that ) because some of them feel you no longer have anything even similar to haveing something in common with ...some friends like your change and they will stay with you though ..and some of those friends eventually even come back ..and may even seek the Lord later on down the road ...


As far as God being holy ...you got that right ..The bible said he is so Holy he cannot even look upon sin ....Remember when he called the Children of Israel to the mountain ..God told them if you even get close and the light of the mountain shine on them ..they would die ..because they are just flesh and (as filthy rags ) and he is PURE HOLY LIGHT ...

So I will give a star for your post ..because personally it did make sense .
I am not so sure about a contradiction though ..
And I sure dont want to discuss the trinity ...lol ....I have my own problems with the Three being one ....*(I can see how they agree as one ..and have the same spirit and same goals etc ...but they have to be seperate entities).But as ONE >agree as one ...even John Describes it ...water,blood and ....
1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

It is sort of confusing ..because they are certainly a part of eachother ....
But they are different entities ...

PS >.I forgot something ....
The Israelites wanted something to worship that they could see and touch ..they did not understand the fact that God was spirit (invisible) which was why they made the IDOLS ....


[edit on 17-11-2008 by Simplynoone]

Wow. Did I post on the wrong forum? Is this the debate thread? Let me see…. Nope; “Religion, Faith, And Theology…”

Pretribguy, sorry for the confusion, my reference to “religion” was religion without the Spirit. I should have said DEAD, formal, works only, religion. As far as Mathew 28:20, I would have included it if I thought it would’ve been relevant to the subject matter, but thank you for adding it…

BTW, what was the secret?


[edit on 17-11-2008 by apaulo]

reply to post by Simplynoone


For starters, I just have to say that I enjoyed your reply.

I don't expect us all to agree concerning our beliefs, as long as we have the A,B,C's, I trust that God will take care of the rest. If you don't see things my way, I don't think you're going to hell. That is how denominations are started; divisions, dissentions... We are still human, and still growing in Christ if we are in fellowship with him, so over time I trust that He will reveal more and more, which is why I refer to the Christian walk as a supernatural adventure. Nobody has reached the ultimate height or the peak in Christ. This is a never-ending journey.

One thing that I know for certain is that it is extremely difficult for people to let go of false teaching. Fear is what keeps most people clinging. They are afraid to question their own understanding... Afraid of being wrong. I believe that is what causes many believers to fall into deception. They are afraid of being deceived, and then it happens; just as Job said, "That which I feared came upon me."

We should never be afraid. We should be able to go to God in prayer and ask Him to reveal anything that is wrong in our theology. "God, have I been led astray? Show me."

The contradiction was rhetoric intended to bait the skeptic. There isn't a contradiction, but like I said concerning my personal walk, at times I need to be reminded about that fact...

As for the Godhead, I don't mind discussing it as opposed to debating. If you have a vehement stance on the matter, it will be a fight... a debate. That is something I'm not interested in. I cannot be moved in my personal revelation, because I have already sought God on the matter, and He has given me understanding. I urge everyone to get their understanding from Him, not the second hand; mom, dad, preacher, priest, etc.

For starters, I think anybody, spiritual or otherwise, could read the Bible and come away thinking that the trinity makes perfect sense. BUT if Jesus Christ really is the same yesterday, today, and forever, the revelations concerning His nature in the OT CAN NOT CHANGE, and He told the Jews that He was ONE. Like I've heard somebody say, you can't chop God into 3 Gods and hand him to Jew.

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Verse 7 doesn't say that they agree, it says that they "are one." The Spirit, water, and the blood, however, are not one... yet they do agree in one. How? The water and the blood are symbolic in that they represent the Spirit of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe. He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light. [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This passage says it all for me, and once I believed that the three were literally one, I then sought God to confirm it to me.

Originally posted by apaulo
As for the Godhead, I don't mind discussing it as opposed to debating. If you have a vehement stance on the matter, it will be a fight... a debate. That is something I'm not interested in. I cannot be moved in my personal revelation, because I have already sought God on the matter, and He has given me understanding. I urge everyone to get their understanding from Him, not the second hand; mom, dad, preacher, priest, etc.

For starters, I think anybody, spiritual or otherwise, could read the Bible and come away thinking that the trinity makes perfect sense. BUT if Jesus Christ really is the same yesterday, today, and forever, the revelations concerning His nature in the OT CAN NOT CHANGE, and He told the Jews that He was ONE. Like I've heard somebody say, you can't chop God into 3 Gods and hand him to Jew.

I disagree. And like you said, if you take away all the teachings of man, and listen to only what the Bible says, God's word says over and over that He is one....


MALACHI 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

MARK 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

ROMANS 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1CORINTHIANS 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

EPHESIANS 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

JAMES 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The best in my opinion showing that God is one, and that Jesus was his son, are these quotes....

1TIMOTHY 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Notice above it says that Jesus is the mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. It does not say that Jesus is the mediator between man and himself.

An even better one showing that God is one is the verse below...

ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

The word LORD in capital letters is always translated from the word Yahweh (YHWH or YHVH). Here Yahweh, the Father is saying that he is one and there in none beside him. People may say that Yahweh is the Godhead, but an interesting fact is pointed out by Peter in the book of Acts....

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Peter is quoting from Psalms 16 and Psalm 110. He is saying that Psalm 16 is prophetic of Jesus talking to his father, but the Hebrew word used in that Psalm, talking of Jesus's father, is Yahweh.

7 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.
8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore.

The same thing applies to to Psalm 110, but this is prophetic of God talking to Jesus his son, (the LORD said unto my lord), and the word LORD, Jesus's father, is once again Yahweh. With that in mind, now read Isaiah 45:5-6 again....

ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else.

Jesus's father, Yahweh, issaying here, before the birth of Christ, that he is one, and there is none else.

The only verse in scripture that says that God and Jesus and the holy spirit are three in one is actually referred to as the an Johannine Comma (
en.wikipedia.org... ) and is an addition to the original manuscript...

1JOHN 5:
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

I'm not trying to debate, simply showing what it says in God's word, and like you mentioned about being able to admit that you are wrong is a battle, but when it comes to the trinity, it is not mentioned in scripture, it says quite the opposite. Either what man says about the trinity is correct, or what God says he is is correct, and I believe God has a better handle on the situation than man. If God was a trinity, he would have said so, not say the exact opposite over and over. So, if God the father was one before the birth of Christ, then Christ did not preexist his birth of Mary.

[edit on 19/11/08 by doctorex]

Also, if Jesus was the eternal God, how could he then die for your sins? Did one third of the eternal godhead die (hardly eternal then is it?) for three days and three nights, leaving only two, until he was then raised again by God the Father, making the godhead once again three? The plain answer is no. God sired a son, his word made flesh, just as you are your fathers seed made flesh. His son had the spirit of his father dwelling in him from birth. He did not sin, the first and only man ever to do so. This is why he was perfect enough to be the passover lamb, to take on the sins of the world, allowing us to have the spirit dwelling in us because we can be cleansed from sin through the name of Christ. Ever wonder why Jesus cried about his father abandoning him in the last moments of his life? (Matthew 27:46) It is because God had to withdraw his spirit, allowing Jesus to take on the sins of the world, because God can not dwell in sin. God could not be around these sins, which Jesus took on his shoulders, so if Jesus was God, how could even bear these sins? He couldn't. God is eternal perfection, he cannot be around sin, and he cannot die. A mortal man had to take on the sins of theworld and pay the wages of death, but it had to be a completely sinless man, and he had to die, and that could only be the son of God, not God himself, since God is Eternal.

[edit on 19/11/08 by doctorex]

All I can say is, it’s no wonder there are so many divisions; so many denominations.

DocX, you do not care about me...

You only care about being right.

reply to post by apaulo


I care about truth, and I care to share that with you, how is that not caring for you? It has nothing to do with me being right, I did not come up with things, it is God's word, it is he who is right.

no contradiction

I think you need to re read the whole thing

The OT is repleat of Gods love
there is Love and wrath in the OT and NT

david

Doctorex

If I could explain the Godhead, then we would not need the Holy Spirit.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. --- 1Corinthians 2:11 – 16

Show me in scripture where anyone… just ONE person was baptized in the titles “Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.” As I said before…

To baptize in titles makes Peter out to be a spiritual ignoramus since the last time he spoke with Jesus Christ he was told…

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" -Mat 28:19

So what does Peter do? He turns right around and teaches all nations…

"…Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." - Acts 2:38

I am not interested in pushing my beliefs or convictions, and I did not start this thread for that purpose. If you disagree, that is fine... I don't expect everyone to agree with me. If we had the ability to settle all debates so people would see it our way, we would be able to end division and unite all denominations as one, but we cannot, and it will not happen… at least not until the Kingdom Age.

Until then, can't we just agree to disagree…?


[edit on 24-11-2008 by apaulo]

Originally posted by drevill
no contradiction

I think you need to re read the whole thing

The OT is repleat of Gods love
there is Love and wrath in the OT and NT

david

David, you’re absolutely right! You must have read the whole post…