Self-fulfilling prophesies (Xtian & I slam)

At least two of the world's great religions presently outdo each other in promotion of apocalypse. Of course the faiths concerned here are those of Jesus and Mohammed. Apparently, adherents to both ignore the admonitions of their respective prophets for discretion and self-control. While eschatological Christians are mindless of Jesus' overwhelming message of love, forgiveness and healing, apocalytic Moslems forego the 'internal jihad' espoused by Mohammed. Clearly, tumult is brewing, fueled by both American fundamentalists' lust for war and Islamic scourge of Westernized civilization.

Consider the essay of Dr. Gerry Lower, "Outside of Bush World - Apocalypse Guaranteed" in OpEd News Excepted passages below detail the frightening nature of the situation:

"It would appear then that about half the American electorate (mostly religious conservative Republicans) are going to remain loyal to the Bush administration's demands for loyalty, despite its celebration of self-rightousness and belligerence on the world stage. They will remain loyal to the Bush administration despite its lies and coercions in taking the American people into an unprovoked war in Iraq, a war that has proven to have very little if anything to do with the 'war on terrorism.'"

"While religious Bush loyalists in America see themselves as defending the values of Democracy and Christianity, those outside of Bush World see Bush loyalists as defending the values of Old Testament Roman religion and crony corporate capitalism. Bush loyalists are accurately seen (given their willingness to abide White House lies and fabrications) as being religiously blind and incorrible, above reason and honest human truth. They are seen as blindly setting the stage for armegeddon and the fulfillment of religious prophecy."

There is little doubt that Mr. Bush consults "The Holy Bible" but one wonders which parts. Apparently, Jesus' message is not well taken while St. John the Divine is being wildly interpreted. Recently, the leader of the free world met with Jack van Impe, a well-known eschatologist who has long warned of impending doom. Because of the resources available to the President, who is better to ensure that the apocalypse goes off without hitch? But it simply amounts to self-fulfilling prophesy; witness the fact that our incursion into Iraq merely enmires us in vengeful bloodletting. Instead of being the grand army crossing the Tigris and Euphrates and ushering in an angry Jesus as is foretold, our soldiers and civilians serve as mere targets. Then again, we are sure that Islam is an apocalyptic religion too. Perhaps they want to ensure their version of the end time is facilitated.

Joseph Farah points out the "Warnings from Islam's 'messianic whirlpool'," subtitling that "Jihadists in global frenzy over coming of prophesied 'Mahdi'" in World Net Daily

In the jihadists' prophesy, the article enumerates other battlegrounds than those in Revelations:

"Two European countries will be attacked.

Another attack is planned against the U.S.

Followers are asked to get rid of euros and as true Muslims replace them with gold.

There will be an assassination attempt against a high-ranking Egyptian official.

A mass gathering of jihad warriors is expected in the cities of the twin holy mosques Mecca and Medina.

A divine signal will be given when three celestial stars will be aligned on one axis.

The appearance of a new star, never seen before, will be in plain sight to all humanity.

Pakistani President Pervez Musharaf and Yasser Arafat will be annihilated in the same month."

And according to Islam, both Mahdi and Jesus will preside over the mayhem. So we have an apocalyptical potporri, each side predicting victory over the other and claiming rights to Jesus. Frankly, I doubt that is what he meant when he said to turn the other cheek.

Religions historically promote violence

Their message is lost in their mayhem

Originally posted by Aeon10101110
Religions historically promote violence

Their message is lost in their mayhem

Heh!!! You won't get any of the followers of those religions to agree with you here though.
That's because they don't understand that their religions were only made for a specific race. All other races who don't support their religion are either infidels or heretics.

The day that people wake up and realise that God isn't religion, will be the day that mankind can finally start progressing. What annoys me more than anything is not that they kill each other over their tribal gods (although it's a futile waste), it's the fact that, those of us who recognise their religions as the cause of evil and get caught in the middle, are paying for their ignorance.

By their very nature, no religion can sit side by side with another but the most amazing thing is the amount of people who are killed by what is meant to be their own religion. When they can't even agree amongst their own kind what chance does a competitor have of peaceful co-existence?

Fascinating that there are so few replies to this. Apparently the zealots are afraid of their own respective religions.

Originally posted by Aeon10101110
Fascinating that there are so few replies to this. Apparently the zealots are afraid of their own respective religions.

I don't know if it is because they are afraid or simply that there is no answer. I honestly believe that the vast majority of people. like myself, simply want to live and enjoy friends, family, experiences. With that said I do agree with you that religon does nothing for the betterment of man and the world would be a much better place without it.

Religion is a control device, a mechanism used to milk money from the guilty and a steady income from the naive. Some seek physical, mental and emotional control.

A control device, nothing more.





[Edited on 4-24-2004 by Preest]

After reading this post I get the feeling that Bush could get assasinated or killed real soon. I dunno, just my opinion.

Originally posted by Bleys
...With that said I do agree with you that religon does nothing for the betterment of man and the world would be a much better place without it.

Well said! And the second US president, John Adams, also agreed, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

From: "The Character of John Adams," by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and "John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words," edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814, www.dimensional.com...

Originally posted by Preest
Religion is a control device, a mechanism used to milk money from the guilty and a steady income from the naive. Some seek physical, mental and emotional control.

A control device, nothing more.
[Edited on 4-24-2004 by Preest]

Indeed. It truly is the "Opiate of the masses."

Originally posted by Aeon10101110
Religions historically promote violence

Their message is lost in their mayhem

I agree! Well, to an extent. I agree that the message is lost in the mayhem, and that religious doctrine historically promotes violence.

I'd be curious to see how many people who fought in the crusades, how many people took part in the inqusition, how many people took part in the Salem witch trials, actually had read the Bible. Those actions are so far outside of what Jesus says, I don't see how they could have.

It's interesting to note that it was a reverand who ended the witch trials.

But that's irrelevant to this discussion. Doctrine has been the falling point of the Catholic church. There's almost a doctrine in catholosism that says not to read the Bible.

So, in my opinion, we must follow the Bible (I've done my research on gnosticism, Leveller, but can't find that thread), not some guy's interpretation of the Bible. Humans are failable, God's Word is not.

Have a nice day!

Originally posted by Leveller

Heh!!! You won't get any of the followers of those religions to agree with you here though.
That's because they don't understand that their religions were only made for a specific race. All other races who don't support their religion are either infidels or heretics.

lol Sorry for disproving you, Leveller, though I knew you'd be on this thread! (read my message to you before this one )

However, I don't think my religion was made for a specific race. I think my religion, above all others (other the Bhudism, which isn't a religion, but a philosophy, and hinduism, who recognise every god as a god) glorifies racial differences. Jesus left the jews to preach to the gentiles, or pagans as they'd be known today.

Dang, I don't mean to appear a point whore (look at my points, I don't need anymore, ever) but I just finished reading through this thread.

I have to say, Christians, I'm disappointed. So far in this thread, everyone has posed easy arguements against the existance of God and Jesus. This has definatelly been an anti-religion thread. Sorry to let y'all know, one of an opposing viewpoint is going and making this one of his favorites Just discovered that neat little abiltiy 2 days ago!

So know this: Every arguement you make against God, another will be made for God. Please don't make it too easy for me If you'd like me to address an arguement posted earlier in this thread, U2U me. There are so many, and my post would be so long, that I don't think anyone would really read it, as has happened with previous long posts I've made. U2U me, and I'll reply on the thread, but believe you me, there is an arguement.

Originally posted by junglejake
I'd be curious to see how many people who fought in the crusades, how many people took part in the inqusition, how many people took part in the Salem witch trials, actually had read the Bible. Those actions are so far outside of what Jesus says, I don't see how they could have.

I could not agree more. Overwhelmingly, His message was one of love, forgiveness and healing. Presently however, the focus appears to be on a vague eschatology that flies in the face of Jesus, once again. By way of a corollary, another thread in the Mud Pit questions the viability of Bush as president, in part based on his apparently apocalyptic outlook. Please see the discussion here.

"Doctrine has been the falling point of the Catholic church. There's almost a doctrine in catholosism that says not to read the Bible. "

That generalization is untrue. Like most religions, the people that show up for church on Sunday and never do any more than lip service to being a Catholic, never learn how much the Church does rely upon studying the testaments. In the catholic schools I attended, by High school, we were studying the bible every day.

In my parish there has always been a Bible study group. It isn't well attended, but who is to blame for that? Not the Church...the people.

You have just as many Catholics as Protestants and probably Islamic, too, who are studying their assorted religious prophetic texts to find out what comes next in this world.

Just because you might see lip service done to the words of God, doesn't mean that is the actual situation.

radstar, you need to accept my humblest appologies. My mom went to Catholic school durring the 60s and 70s, and she was told not to read the Bible, that it was beyond her, and she needed a father or sister to interpret it for her. Your message brings me hope, in so far as that part of the religion has changed. I got my info from the 60s.

I see it as us humans have not kept to religion for whats its worth and instead put faith in twisted philosophy that fueled by yours or/and anothers greedy self ambition. This along with secularist and others greedy pursuit of capital causes many problems from our side of the war.

The other side's abudancy of poverty when others have riches resentment fueled by extremist preaching religious and anti-US propaganda has many ready to kill an unknown enemy that is responsible for their situation.

It is a shame that US troops are targets of this in Iraq. War is supposed to be ugly and a general or someone else needs to take control and make some progress. A form of government that the Iraqi people can respect needs to come into power. If not more on both sides will be killed.

The message of Jesus is of peace and forgiveness and you will forgiven. If all religious leader could meet together to discuss theology and as a good will gesture a lot can be saved. Just because there is corruption in religion is no reason to abandon it or lesser the value of what is preached. There is a bigger picture and you are not in it.

President Bush takes too much heat for not explaining every action he takes. The media and everyone else needs to reconize that in war situations every detail cannot be given for national security reasons. He gets the job done. It is up to him and Powell to appoint the right generals to keep the US out of trouble in combat. It is up to those appointees to keep the US from being an open target while we are there. Leave without leadership and anarchy will follow.

Praying for the better of mankind and for the improvement of yourself as a person is something we all can do. Athesist and secularist alike need to know that praying for good things for others is pschyologically proven to be helpfull, think about it you are programing your brain by praying to look for situations where you can be that helpful person which is more rewarding than money.

Watch out for Jihad could be real.

I agree with you Aeon, it is self-fulfilling... But for the prophecies of the Bible and other religions to come true, it has to be brought to fruition by conscious choice.

We don't have to live the 'dream' of the planet.
It is up to each and every one of us to choose whether to wake up or not.

Originally posted by Leveller

Here Here, Leveller! Agree wholeheartedly....especially with the the comment that religion was 'made'....(I have my own opions by 'whom'...not sure of yours, but am curious if that was intentional)

The Goddess is Alive and Magick is Afoot!

Originally posted by Aeon10101110
Fascinating that there are so few replies to this. Apparently the zealots are afraid of their own respective religions.

Or maybe they dont feel like dignifying your half baked theory?

If you want people to look inside of themselves maybe you shouldnt be so condescending.

Self fulfilling prophecy.....

Isreal