Keith Olbermann Speaks Out On Prop 8

The United States Constitution:
Amendment XIV, Section 1 and Article VI, Section 2

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

I think the operable phrase is "Equal Protection".

What do you care who gets married? Really ask yourself this simple question.

I am married to a woman. I have children and my children have great gay uncles who have been together 35 plus years. I'm not scared.

I think traditionalists look at gay marriage as a slap in the face and an insult to the institution of marriage. That's not my belief. That's just my assumption. I could be very wrong.

But, I feel that until the traditional definition of marriage is changed gay marriage will remain unpopular and controversial.

As someone who doesn't care one way or the other on this subject, I'd point out to Mr. Olbermann that maybe he should stick to reading the news instead of trying to make or influence it. You're a talking head who reads the news Keith... you started out as a schmuck on ESPN... what makes your opinion any more relevant than the people who voted on Prop 8?

Not only that, the XIV amendment does affect prop 8, as far as equal protection goes.

under prop 8, all eligible californians are allowed to marry persons of the opposite sex.

NONE of them are allowed to marry someone of the same sex.

See, that's equal protection. So there's no constitutional argument involved.

If some peopel were being permitted to get gay-married, and others wouldn't, that would be an issue. (It might be an issue as far as those already married.) But if NO ONE is permitted a gay marriage, then that's equal application of the law.

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Originally posted by Resinveins
As someone who doesn't care one way or the other on this subject, I'd point out to Mr. Olbermann that maybe he should stick to reading the news instead of trying to make or influence it. You're a talking head who reads the news Keith... you started out as a schmuck on ESPN... what makes your opinion any more relevant than the people who voted on Prop 8?

Nothing...other than the fact that he's seen and heard by millions of people every week night and can influence their opinions, whereas the voters express their opinions once every 2-4 years.

Ya know I don't think "the dude" would have been with you on this one!
So you really care who get's married I thought you just wanted your rug back! Lighten up dude go roll a few frames!

Gay marriage is something that many people are uncomfortable (I was shocked that Prop 8 passed in my liberal state). But the fact of the matter is that the concept is still a new one to many parts of our society.

This is something that will likely become a normal part of everyday life in the future but it will take time, as with every social movement.

reply to post by Leo Strauss


I'm looking for a good replacement avatar. I chose that one because I find that movie humorous, not because I am the dude or subscribe to his belief system.

The only thing I have i common with him is a taste for white russians, film noir, and maybe persian carpets.

I'm looking for one that more represents WHO i am, and not my taste in comedies.

Looking for a grail, actually....

Olbermann misses a key point when he brings up "redefining marriage" in stating that in 1967 several states had laws saying interracial couples could not marry.

Interracial marriage isn't condemned in the Bible, but homosexuality is and that's where a lot of the supporters on Proposition 8 are coming from.

Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable (Leviticus 18:21).

Are homosexuals born and not created by their environment? Apparently so, because of the sinful nature of man:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. (Romans 1:18-25)

And it says this:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them (Romans 1:26-32).

However, marriage is mentioned in the Bible - for a man and woman to be joined under God.

"And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh" (Genesis 2:23-24).

To make a woman, the Bible says God put Adam into a deep sleep and took one of his ribs and fashioned Eve from that.

This is also quoted in the New Testament:

After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” (Ephesians 5:29-31).

Per the Bible, the definition of marriage has always been = 1 man, 1 woman. Proposition 8 just seeks to uphold that tradition. Personally, I'm glad to see traditions still being upheld. I know that this will likely change in the near future, but for now, the majority still agrees that marriage is for men and women only.

If gays want to legally partner let them have civil unions.

[edit on 11-11-2008 by sos37]

I'll tell you a little story about my kid's 1st grade class. One of the girls in my son's class had 2 mommies. She is a beautiful kid in every way!

Well one of her mommies had a heart attack at the age of I'd guess 35 and nearly died. All of the kids from her class sent special messages and get well wishes to the hospital and were supported by all the parents and teachers from the school.

Well thank god she recovered. She happens to be a cop in a tough inner city precinct. After she recovered she visited the classroom with some of her fellow police officers and gave a tearful thank you to the kids and parents for their loving support. She then proceeded to give some police teddy bears to all the kids in the classroom. She and her daughter were so very grateful for simple human compassion and decency.

They are a terrific family, not second class citizens. They work, pay their taxes and want the best for their children...sound familiar???

Well... let's contemplate, and take a SERIOUS look at objections (especially those of you who have an "enlightened" open mind compared to us "unenlightened morale types"). Ask yourself a question... where is your line? Seriously. Where is your line. Your line today may be being argued in a few years... so think hard on this.

Polygamy ! Why not... there is definitely more history and custom related to this type of marriage. Still practiced in many circles and cultures around the world.

How how about insestual marriage? This historically has been practiced by royalty.

How about Pedophile marriage.. hey, the 8 year old consents, run to Vegas.

How about marrying your farm animal.... oh wait that ain't natural.

So, Where is your line?



I use this same argument AGAINST school prayer and Religion in School... yeah, all fine and dandy to have fellowship Christian prayer in school, until you really think about it.... what happens when the "muslim call to prayers" starts coming over the loudspeaker and all the kids think it is cool to wear face hiding "religious ware"... all of a sudden those for School prayer and religion in schools have to think twice.

Can of worms.



[edit on 11-11-2008 by infolurker]

[edit on 11-11-2008 by infolurker]

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Gay marriage is something that many people are uncomfortable (I was shocked that Prop 8 passed in my liberal state). But the fact of the matter is that the concept is still a new one to many parts of our society.

This is something that will likely become a normal part of everyday life in the future but it will take time, as with every social movement.

I think you are correct, but the pro-gay marriage folks are taking the long road to the destination; by dint of using the word 'marriage' they are inflaming the religious certitude of broad swaths of the population and in turn basing their argument on emotional semantics as opposed to really trying to make sure they have equal rights under The Law.

To that end I would suggest a strategy that gets out of the fundamentalists playground, and onto the side of The Law.

I say civil ceremonies for everyone, ala much of Western Europe, and then if you want to get 'married' in a church, that's between you and your church.


Qvi vgiebat rvrsvs proeliabitvr!

TWISI

reply to post by sos37


You have a good point. However, you are missing something important, and that is that our church and our government should stay separate.
It doesn't matter if God condemns gays in the Bible, because the Bible should not be being used as ANY evidence of who deserves to get married or not.

Keith is right. Prop 8 did not do anything but take what was a lawful right away from the citizens.
And it has nothing to do with the people who didn't want gay marriage legal.
It's not like gay marriage being legal was interfering with their marriages.
And if people really cared about the sanctity of marriage they would be holding anti-divorce rallies.
But no, the fact that 50 % of STRAIGHT, HETERO couples are getting divorced isn't even being looked at.
People who are commiting adultery also aren't being looked at.
There are no propositions that say "God said adultery is wrong and against the ten commandments, let's make it illegal!"
People are just afraid of what they haven't ever seen - they've seen people get cheated on.
But they've never really seen two people of the same sex getting married and the truth is that it scares most people.
These people aren't preaching the word of God equally either, or they would be holding Anti-God-damnit rallies, because taking the Lord's name in vain is against the ten commandments.
It's just people being prejudiced and then looking in the Bible for evidence to back up their prejudice, and I think it's disgusting that people would use the Bible to promote the taking away of rights and to promote hatred. It sickens me.
And until these gay bashers start holding anti-God-dammit rallies, start cracking down on the premarital sex and adultery levels in our society, start condemning those that work on the Sabbath, and start stoning their children for disobeying them, I am not going to take any statement that "the Bible said being gay is wrong" as a legitimate excuse for the hatred and discrimination that they are showing.

reply to post by difsjf


You're absolutely right. Church and government should remain separate. The problem with that theory lies in the foundation of Democracy itself - the right of people to elect their own leaders.

Many, many people make decisions as to who they want in office BASED on who is the closest to representing their religious beliefs. Should it be that way? That's not for me to say, I think it's up to each individual to make that decision.

Originally posted by infolurker
Polygamy ! Why not... there is definitely more history and custom related to this type of marriage. Still practiced in many circles and cultures around the world.

Yes, certainly allow Polygamy. If all parties are willing to participate in a polyamorous relationship, by all means allow them to do so. It hurts nothing except perhaps your sensitive views on what marriage SHOULD be.

How how about insestual marriage? This historically has been practiced by royalty.

Most states allow Second Cousins to marry, that's incest. That being said, the reason Incest is largely illegal is because it can cause severe birth defects if you marry your brother, sister or cousin. There is provable harm in these cases, so it should be prevented on those grounds.

How about Pedophile marriage.. hey, the 8 year old consents, run to Vegas.

While we could get into a huge argument over whether or not an 8 year old could consent to such a thing knowingly... it is important to note that there are a LOT of people whose grandparents were married at 12, 13 and 14. And some of those grandparents were four or more years apart, usually on the guys side of things. We have laws about that now, primarily as a "PROTECT THE CHILDREN" measure. Not certain if I agree necessarily, but with how complicated society is nowadays I would imagine it may possibly be less harmful to prevent people marrying at such an early age.

How about marrying your farm animal.... oh wait that ain't natural.

If someone wants to marry their sheep, that's nobodies business but theirs. They aren't harming any other human beings in the process, and whether or not you consider it natural or gross should not hold any sway over whether it should happen or not. As in the example Olberman presented... there was a time in America when mixed race marriages were considered disgusting and unnatural, despite the fact that their getting married didn't hurt anyone.

So I draw the line at actual harm to either society or other inividuals. I believe that people should live and let live, and turn the other cheek.

I use this same argument AGAINST school prayer and Religion in School... yeah, all fine and dandy to have fellowship Christian prayer in school, until you really think about it.... what happens when the "muslim call to prayers" starts coming over the loudspeaker and all the kids think it is cool to wear face hiding "religious ware"... all of a sudden those for School prayer and religion in schools have to think twice.

Can of worms.

Can of Worms? Seriously, CAN OF WORMS? What kind of can of worms? I hear this argument bandied about ad nauseum, ad infinitum. Look out, if gays get married next someone will marry their pet goat!

Should people who have had their genetics modified to be photosynthetic be able to get married to regular human beings?

What about sentient Androids with artificial emotions? Should they be prevented as well? "It's adam and eve, not adam and his #*&(@ Toaster!"

Look, you EX-tians tend not to be forward thinkers, and I don't think any of you even dwell on the fact that most of this crap will be possible within our lifetimes. You are so stuck on Leviticus and Soddom & Gommorah that you don't care whom you hurt.

[edit on 12-11-2008 by TheColdDragon]

To be honest I don't believe homosexuality is right, With that said what other people do is not my business, they aren't harming me, two people who love each other no matter how difficult i may find grasping the concept of homosexuality, affects my life not one bit...

The bible or any religion for that matter should have no basis whatsoever in this argument as religion has no place in the matter, the church is using this issue to force religion into the state when the two are supposed to be separate...

I don't care what your religion defines as marriage, the 1st amendment is supposed to protect us from these matters, No law is to be made respecting the establishment of religion, be it for or against, In this case this law is using a religious definition or marriage and forcing it on everyone else...

The religious folks need to seriously back off, its getting old, this isn't your country its everyone's country and not everyone believes in your particular brand of bs. You cant force a person to live by your standards, I mean you can lock a bad person in a padded room for the rest of his life and it still doesn't change the fact hes a bad person...


Seriously the hypocrisy is just amazing, we have "Christians" who

1.lie
2.steal
3.cheat on there spouses
4.gossip about everyone
5.get divorced.
6.have premarital sex
7.don't live by the bible standards of eating "clean" foods

the list goes on and on and on, but its ok to ignor those things right?

but for some reason this issue they can't let slide?

I have an idea for you fanatics, MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS

Originally posted by C0le

The religious folks need to seriously back off, its getting old, this isn't your country its everyone's country and not everyone believes in your particular brand of bs. You cant force a person to live by your standards, I mean you can lock a bad person in a padded room for the rest of his life and it still doesn't change the fact hes a bad person...

I know this is off topic, but it's directly related to what you posted. People asked, when certain fanatical right members claimed Obama was a Muslim, "What's wrong with being a Muslim in this country?"

The answer to that is - nothing, as long as your religion doesn't alter the way we do things here in America. When you become an American citizen you assimilate to the American culture, right? Well, what happens when a certain group demands that everyone else changes to meet their demands?

For example, some public schools here in Dallas have had to start offering hour long "prayer times", on campus, for their Muslim students which cause some scheduling conflicts. But the same public schools, at the same time, will not allow Christian groups to meet on school property because they insist on separating religion and school. The Christian groups cry foul of this and claim the administration is pandering to the Muslim groups out of fear of retaliation.

Would your response then be the same? - You said:

"The religious folks need to seriously back off, its getting old, this isn't your country its everyone's country and not everyone believes in your particular brand of bs. You cant force a person to live by your standards, I mean you can lock a bad person in a padded room for the rest of his life and it still doesn't change the fact hes a bad person... "

[edit on 12-11-2008 by sos37]

No exceptions should be made for anyone because of a religious issue, if the issue is severe enough to warrant and alteration in the norm they should be free to get their education elsewhere in a private institution that caters to their special needs.