Myth: More Evidence for Jesus Than Julius Caesar

reply to post by Good Wolf


Hi, you make some good points, we have no busts/statues of Jesus, no coins etc like we do for Julius Caesar. But in terms of documentary evidence for some of Caesar's hijinks such as the Gallic Wars, we only have one copy dated 900 AD almost a thousand years AFTER the supposed event. Yet we 10,000 new testament manuscript pieces some from AD 130 and one piece possibly from AD 50, 17 years after the ressurection. Of course, volume is no guarantee of authenticity but for historians at least who often establish the presence of a historical figure on ONE piece of evidence (i.e. a mention in a paragraph) the New Testament is more reliable than some of the works supposedly written by Caesar himself.

There is also Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger (who hated Christians but still mentioned them and christ), Suetinos (probably spelled that wrong!) and several others all who mention Christ (and a good dose of these are non-Jewish, non-Christian sources). So there is plenty of evidence that Jesus DID exist as a real person - and the comparison with Caesar is more a matter of substance (stone and coins) which you have to decide whether or not that makes them more reliable. After all, there were statues to Zeus and probably coins of 'gods as well.

Thanks for reading.

Gday,

Originally posted by papabryant
This is the one that always gets me among skeptics. The Biblical texts are a 600 lbs gorilla that the majority of skeptics try to ignore - Matthew and Mark were both written within 30 years of the events depicted, well within the lifetime of those who could refute the events.

False.
This may be what faithful believers faithfully believe.

But the facts are different - modern experts agree -
G.Mark was written about 65-80 by someone who never met Jesus,
Matthew was largely copied from G.Mark about 80-100 by someone who never met Jesus.

In fact - modern experts agree that NOT ONE SINGLE book of the NT was written by anyone who met any Jesus.

The NT are religious legends, no more real than the Golden Ass.


Kapyong

I agree with the OP. There should be more evidence for Caesar's existence than Jesus. Caesar was a man of material and wanted physical things left behind so he would be remembered.

Jesus didn't have monuments erected in his honor. The first Christians didn't build monuments of him after his death. It was the Roman Catholic church who started making images of him.

People were to honor Jesus with their thoughts. There was to be no material icon representing him because God forbid idol worship.

Worship comes from the mind and heart.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by Supercertari

 

But it's a myth held only by christians, spread and used by christians only. That seems pretty christian to me.
This isn't a stab at Christianity, just some specific feeble minded christians.

What would you have the title read? I might have it changed if I agree.

[edit on 11/4/2008 by Good Wolf]

This so called "Myth" is preposterous even to an imbecile.

Are you saying that the majority of Christians believe this rubble? Or the minority?

Everyone knows Caesar existed, no lack of proof there.

As for Jesus Christ existing, you unbelievers can turn to the foremost historians, who all agree that a man named Jesus Christ existed (whether he was divine or not).

I've never heard ANY Christian claiming there is more proof of Caesar than Christ, what would be the point. Maybe you could show me who is making these claims?

A true believer doesn't need proof, but of course they will defend their beliefs (yes, we're human too).

How can you try to explain/argue about faith to an unbeliever? Of course you have to resort to something they can relate to (secular proof).

Also, lumping "Christians" together into one group just isn't right. Any one who tells you not to study and prove things for yourself is suspect.

I'm Christian and I never go to church, or donate to a church, etc...doesn't change my beliefs one bit though...all the donations and good works in the world won't get you into heaven.

I pray the word will be revealed to you.

Luke 22:67

Gday,

Originally posted by B.A.C.
This so called "Myth" is preposterous even to an imbecile.
Are you saying that the majority of Christians believe this rubble? Or the minority?
Everyone knows Caesar existed, no lack of proof there.

Yes,
everyone knows that, no-one said otherwise.
It appears you read the O.P. incorrectly.

Originally posted by B.A.C.
As for Jesus Christ existing, you unbelievers can turn to the foremost historians, who all agree that a man named Jesus Christ existed (whether he was divine or not).

False.
It appears you have never researched this subject at all.
Not all historians agree that Jesus existed, many have argue he was a myth :
C.F. Dupuis, 1791, Abrege De L'Origine Des Cultes
Robert Taylor, 1829, Diegesis
Bruno Bauer, 1841, Criticism of the Gospel History of the Synoptics
Mitchell Logan, 1842, Christian Mythology Unveiled
David Friedrich Strauss, 1860, The Life of Jesus Critically Examined
Kersey Graves, 1875, The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviours
T.W. Doane, 1882, Bible Myths and their Parallels in Other Religions
Gerald Massey, 1886, Historical Jesus and Mythical Christ
Thomas Whittaker, 1904, The Origins of Christianity
William Benjamin Smith, 1906, Der vorchristliche Jesus
Albert Kalthoff, 1907, The Rise of Christianity
M.M. Mangasarian, 1909, The Truth About Jesus ? Is He a Myth?
Arthur Drews, 1910, The Christ Myth
John M. Robertson, 1917, The Jesus Problem
Georg Brandes, 1926, Jesus – A Myth
Joseph Wheless, 1930, Forgery in Christianity
L.Gordon Rylands, 1935, Did Jesus Ever Live?
Edouard Dujardin, 1938, Ancient History of the God Jesus
P.L. Couchoud, 1939, The Creation of Christ
Alvin Boyd Kuhn, 1944, Who is this King of Glory?
Karl Kautsky, 1953, The Foundations of Christianity
Herbert Cutner, 1950, Jesus: God, Man, or Myth?
Guy Fau, 1967, Le Fable de Jesus Christ

In modern times we have Richard Carrier, and Earl Doherty e.g.

Originally posted by B.A.C.
I've never heard ANY Christian claiming there is more proof of Caesar than Christ, what would be the point. Maybe you could show me who is making these claims?

So, you've never heard of it, so it never happened?
And you couldn't be bothered to even LOOK?
If you had bothered to check the facts, you would find that it IS INDEED a very common claim made by Christian believers - here are a few examples found in a minute or two of faithful Christians making exactly this false claim :

"There is more historical evidence that Jesus lived than Julius Caesar ever did. Then, why not believe?"
answers.yahoo.com...

"It's been truly said that there is more evidence for Jesus than for Julius Caesar."
www.miketaylor.org.uk...

"There is more evidence for Jesus Christ than there is for Julius Caesar "
www.youtube.com...

"There is more corroborated evidence for the existence of Jesus than for many other historical characters although their existence is never brought into question - including Julius Caesar,"
wiki.answers.com...

You can find many more examples easily.
So, B.A.C., now you HAVE heard of such examples.

Originally posted by B.A.C.
A true believer doesn't need proof, but of course they will defend their beliefs (yes, we're human too). How can you try to explain/argue about faith to an unbeliever? Of course you have to resort to something they can relate to (secular proof).

This thread is not about faith.
It's about the false claim that there is more evidence for Jesus than Caesar.

Originally posted by B.A.C.
Also, lumping "Christians" together into one group just isn't right.

Well,
Christians frequently lump themselves together,
Christians frequently lump their critics together, usually as 'atheistic evolutionists'.

Originally posted by B.A.C.
Any one who tells you not to study and prove things for yourself is suspect.

So why didn't you?
You didn't study the claim of the O.P. at all.

You expressed a firm view on something you admit you had never even heard of, without spending even a minute checking the facts.


Kapyong

Originally posted by Kapyong
False.
It appears you have never researched this subject at all.
Not all historians agree that Jesus existed, many have argue he was a myth :
C.F. Dupuis, 1791, Abrege De L'Origine Des Cultes
Robert Taylor, 1829, Diegesis
Bruno Bauer, 1841, Criticism of the Gospel History of the Synoptics
Mitchell Logan, 1842, Christian Mythology Unveiled
David Friedrich Strauss, 1860, The Life of Jesus Critically Examined
Kersey Graves, 1875, The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviours
T.W. Doane, 1882, Bible Myths and their Parallels in Other Religions
Gerald Massey, 1886, Historical Jesus and Mythical Christ
Thomas Whittaker, 1904, The Origins of Christianity
William Benjamin Smith, 1906, Der vorchristliche Jesus
Albert Kalthoff, 1907, The Rise of Christianity
M.M. Mangasarian, 1909, The Truth About Jesus ? Is He a Myth?
Arthur Drews, 1910, The Christ Myth
John M. Robertson, 1917, The Jesus Problem
Georg Brandes, 1926, Jesus – A Myth
Joseph Wheless, 1930, Forgery in Christianity
L.Gordon Rylands, 1935, Did Jesus Ever Live?
Edouard Dujardin, 1938, Ancient History of the God Jesus
P.L. Couchoud, 1939, The Creation of Christ
Alvin Boyd Kuhn, 1944, Who is this King of Glory?
Karl Kautsky, 1953, The Foundations of Christianity
Herbert Cutner, 1950, Jesus: God, Man, or Myth?
Guy Fau, 1967, Le Fable de Jesus Christ

1967 is the latest information you could find? Lots of archeology and knowledge gained since then...

en.wikipedia.org...

With few exceptions (such as Robert M. Price), virtually all scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, was accused of sedition against the Roman Empire, and on the orders of Roman Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion.

Originally posted by Kapyong
So, you've never heard of it, so it never happened?
And you couldn't be bothered to even LOOK?
If you had bothered to check the facts, you would find that it IS INDEED a very common claim made by Christian believers - here are a few examples found in a minute or two of faithful Christians making exactly this false claim :

"There is more historical evidence that Jesus lived than Julius Caesar ever did. Then, why not believe?"
answers.yahoo.com...

"It's been truly said that there is more evidence for Jesus than for Julius Caesar."
www.miketaylor.org.uk...

"There is more evidence for Jesus Christ than there is for Julius Caesar "
www.youtube.com...

"There is more corroborated evidence for the existence of Jesus than for many other historical characters although their existence is never brought into question - including Julius Caesar,"
wiki.answers.com...

You can find many more examples easily.
So, B.A.C., now you HAVE heard of such examples.

Out of the billions of Christians, these few with these beliefs mean that Christians believe this? Absurd...I've been a Christian for 19 years and never heard of this, that should tell you something. (I never said it wasn't true, only that I never heard of it).

Originally posted by Kapyong
So why didn't you?
You didn't study the claim of the O.P. at all.

You expressed a firm view on something you admit you had never even heard of, without spending even a minute checking the facts.

Why do I have to study the claim that Christians believe this? Like I said 19 years as a Christian and I've never heard of it, I study alot btw. That should tell you it's a VERY narrow minority that believe this..

Gday,

Originally posted by B.A.C.
With few exceptions (such as Robert M. Price), virtually all scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, was accused of sedition against the Roman Empire, and on the orders of Roman Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion.

It is indeed a minority view.

But -
how many scholars are non-Christians, from a non-Christian culture?
Almost none.

There is a vast cultural superstructure of belief in Jesus that distorts this issue - how many NT historians are believers? how many work in Christian institutions?
Many. Most.

B.A.C.
Out of the billions of Christians, these few with these beliefs mean that Christians believe this?

But these are NOT the only few with that belief, just a few I found quickly.

Let's recap -
The O.P considered this a common Christian myth,
some posters agreed,
I also have heard it often,
and a search online finds this claim in multiple examples, easily.

i.e. many have heard of it, but you have not.
OK.

B.A.C.
Absurd...I've been a Christian for 19 years and never heard of this, that should tell you something. (I never said it wasn't true, only that I never heard of it).

What it shows it that you haven't heard of it.
Others haven't heard of it.
But many have.

Not a big issue really, no black/white answer.
(Unless you are trying to claim that your 19 years of Christianity shows that you have heard it all and would know of ALL relevant claims ever made; and that your not knowing means it can NOT have happened. I don't think you mean that :-) )


Kapyong


[edit on 28-2-2009 by Kapyong]

[edit on 28-2-2009 by Kapyong]

reply to post by Kapyong


Of course I haven't heard ALL views LMAO.

BTW - a VAST majority of biblical scholars are atheist, agnostic, etc. As you said to me, do some research.

Many members of this forum hold degrees in Theology, Biblical studies, etc. Yet they'll be the first to challenge a belief in God, what a waste of study.

They can criticize Christians for believing and following the word, and at the same time waste many years studying something they don't believe.

I wonder which is more logical?

Originally posted by B.A.C.
reply to post by Kapyong

 

Of course I haven't heard ALL views LMAO.

BTW - a VAST majority of biblical scholars are atheist, agnostic, etc. As you said to me, do some research.

Many members of this forum hold degrees in Theology, Biblical studies, etc. Yet they'll be the first to challenge a belief in God, what a waste of study.

They can criticize Christians for believing and following the word, and at the same time waste many years studying something they don't believe.

I wonder which is more logical?

Good point. I'll tell all the Egyptologists who don't pour out daily libations to Amon-Re and mummify their relatives that they're just wasting their time.

Scholars have a tendency to project upon the nebulous figure of Jesus whatever personality they would like him to have. For atheists and agnostics, that usually seems to take the form of painting him as some sort of socialist revolutionary and champion of the oppressed, with few words of actual theology. You may say that they are merely "studying something they don't believe," but there are few indeed who are true cynics.

[edit on 28-2-2009 by Eleleth]

OP, I totally agree with you man.

I actually met one who truly believed the world popped into existence about 6,000 years ago, regardless of the fact there are rocks and bones in the ground that are far older than that.

But I guess "science" is all a bunch of poppycock.

I love the roman empire - and when I first saw your thread title, I thought you were saying there was more evidence for Jesus. I was going to say, "Show me Jesus' account of the Gallic Wars - OH WAIT - LOL! That was Julius Caesar, and you know something else - I was born in July..... named after (Julius Caesar)! For those of you w/ no grasp of latin - Julius Caesar is actually pronounced JULY-US KAISOR. The title "Kaiser" actually came from his name.

Just a couple of things to think about.

[edit on 28-2-2009 by mf_luder]

Originally posted by Good Wolf
I keep getting informed by Christians that there is more evidence of Jesus existing than Julius Caesar. This is of course absolute bovine excrement (sorry about the language ^_^). We have dozens of times more evidence for Caesar than we do for Christ Jesus.

Hmm???

OP=Obvious!

JC said… “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

Caesar said… “I came, I saw, I conquered.”

Who was TRYING to leave a legacy and Who REALLY Did?

Father
Son
Spirit

Originally posted by Eleleth

Originally posted by B.A.C.
reply to post by Kapyong

 

Of course I haven't heard ALL views LMAO.

BTW - a VAST majority of biblical scholars are atheist, agnostic, etc. As you said to me, do some research.

Many members of this forum hold degrees in Theology, Biblical studies, etc. Yet they'll be the first to challenge a belief in God, what a waste of study.

They can criticize Christians for believing and following the word, and at the same time waste many years studying something they don't believe.

I wonder which is more logical?

Good point. I'll tell all the Egyptologists who don't pour out daily libations to Amon-Re and mummify their relatives that they're just wasting their time.

Scholars have a tendency to project upon the nebulous figure of Jesus whatever personality they would like him to have. For atheists and agnostics, that usually seems to take the form of painting him as some sort of socialist revolutionary and champion of the oppressed, with few words of actual theology. You may say that they are merely "studying something they don't believe," but there are few indeed who are true cynics.

[edit on 28-2-2009 by Eleleth]

Egyptology isn't a study of religion, it is a study of a culture, which of course relates to their religious practices. I think it's safe to say that ALL Egyptologists believe Ancient Egypt existed...

To compare that with the study of a Bible/Book you don't believe is ridiculous IMO.

Any MobyDickologists wanna respond?

[edit on 28-2-2009 by B.A.C.]

reply to post by Good Wolf


really
i dont see why you are so bothered by the wack comment
IT IS FALSE
you dont need to outrage a bunch of fundies be saying that

plus, i still believe in jesus. i dont care HOW MUCH evidence as long a there is a SUBSTANTIAL amount.
duh.

Originally posted by B.A.C.
Egyptology isn't a study of religion, it is a study of a culture, which of course relates to their religious practices. I think it's safe to say that ALL Egyptologists believe Ancient Egypt existed...

To compare that with the study of a Bible/Book you don't believe is ridiculous IMO.

Any MobyDickologists wanna respond?

Haha, good one! People who study literature? That's silly!

Next thing you know, they'll be giving out degrees for this stuff!

Originally posted by Eleleth

Originally posted by B.A.C.
Egyptology isn't a study of religion, it is a study of a culture, which of course relates to their religious practices. I think it's safe to say that ALL Egyptologists believe Ancient Egypt existed...

To compare that with the study of a Bible/Book you don't believe is ridiculous IMO.

Any MobyDickologists wanna respond?

Haha, good one! People who study literature? That's silly!

Next thing you know, they'll be giving out degrees for this stuff!

Wow I can feel the sarcasm......kinda funny.

My point was to the non - believer that's all the Bible is, is literature, fiction, not inspired by the divine.

You've seen degrees given out for single books that are non religious?

Where do I sign up? I've read "See Spot Jump", I'm an expert, he can in fact jump, and I witnessed it!

You're insulting both of our intelligence by missing the point....

Very true.I'm still amazed that people don't look into such things,especially in the age of the internet when information is available in seconds.

Many Christian Faiths and church's don't encourage questioning though,in fact,some hate it.I grew up Catholic and my own priest told me to stop reading the Bible because i was asking too many questions.

He told me i could only read certain parts and only when supervised by an adult.It didn't stop me asking questions.lol.

As a Catholic (and a reasonable, honest one) I tend to disbelieve that. Had you paid attention in Mass, you would have heard three Bible readings every single Sunday (and had you gone daily, you would have heard 21 readings per week). By the end of one year you would have heard almost the entire Bible. Only Protestants with an agenda repeat the 'Catholics don't want you to read the Bible' lie. I am an honest Christian- I believe in Christ through faith and reason, and I refute Christians AND atheists/others who try to use dishonesty to influence opinions, like you are doing.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
reply to post by bruxfain

 

Wolf is fighting that war within himself...he wants so bad for the Lord to not exist so he can rest peacefully in his unbelief ...we all know this will not happen ....you will find no peace in that Wolf .... ..I pray that the Lord shows himself to you Wolf ..

Theists are fighting that war within themselves...they want so badly for their imaginary friend to exist so they can rest peacefully in their delusions...thinking people know this will not happen ...you will find no peace in unreality ...I sincerely hope you will learn to promote reason to the place in your mind which is now enslaved by the memes of primitive superstition.

Originally posted by lostinspace
I agree with the OP. There should be more evidence for Caesar's existence than Jesus. Caesar was a man of material and wanted physical things left behind so he would be remembered..

Agreed.

There is nothing really more to say here.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
As far as coins go ..
www.goldline.com...
The "histamenon nomisma" is an ancient gold coin from the Byzantine era. Also referred to as "gold Byzants", these are some of the early gold coins to feature Jesus Christ. Goldline is pleased to present a limited number of these gold coins - ranging from 800 to 1000 years old - excavated from a buried cache in the ancient Middle East region.

Btw, haven't you been here long enough to learn to use external content tags?
It's easy enough, and clarifies what is external content, and what is your own words.
For this reply I've applied tags to your post for you.

You are using a site to support the existance of Jesus coins when there is not a single mention, anywhere on Goldline.com, of any coin featuring Jesus?
Why does it not surprise me when "Christians" keep doing this?

Israel Archaeologists Find Rare 'Jesus Coins'
July 7, 1999
JERUSALEM - One-thousand-year-old coins found near the Sea of Galilee bear the likeness of Jesus and have Greek inscriptions praising him, Israeli archaeologists announced on Wednesday.
The coins were unearthed in October in archaeological excavations at the site of ancient Tiberias in northern Israel but only during a cleaning of the find last month did archaeologists discover the image of Jesus on 58 of the 82 coins.
Some coins also bore Greek inscriptions such as "Jesus the Messiah, the King of Kings," and "Jesus, the Messiah, the Victor."
"This is the largest collection of these types of coins. They are very rare," said archaeologist Yizhar Hirschfeld, who co-directed the excavations.
Archaeologists also found many types of bronze utensils dating from the 10th and 11th centuries, when the Islamic Fatimid ruled the region.
Hirschfeld said the coins were probably brought from Constantinople to Tiberias by Christian pilgrims.
"We know Tiberias was a mixed city, where Jews, Moslems and Christians all lived together. Tiberias was a pilgrimage site." Hirschfeld said.
Archaeologists found the coins and other objects in three large clay pots hidden under the floor of a structure. The Crusaders destroyed ancient Tiberias at the end of the 11th century but the invaders did not discover the coin hoard.
uts.cc.utexas.edu...

Have you looked into the source of this?
And don't tell me it's Texas Uni, or I'll burst my sides laughing.
Students at Texas Uni can each get some web-space allocated on that server, to use as they wish.
Some of the stuff I've seen those kids put up is disgusting.
I'd suggest this completely unreferenced item has been posted in an attempt to legitimise the sale of fake, Chinese made "Jesus coins".

Ancient Byzantine Coins of Jesus Christ c1000 AD
www.trocadero.com...

Ever heard of provenance?
There is no indication on this site of how the dealer got these coins, or of their original source.
But you don't need these things once you aim your market at Christians.
As it's easy for Chinese to move to Australia, Chinese counterfeit businesses frequently use Australia as a base for operations.

Chinese Counterfeiting Ring

So, do you have any actual evidence for the existance of Jesus coins?

coins.about.com...

In realidad Jesus is only mentioned only a few times in historical documents.
He's mentiones by Flavius Josephus 2 times in 80AD.
More suprisingly he's mentioned by the latin historian suetone in his history of the expulsion of the jew from Rome by the emperdor Claudio in 49 - 50 dc, and indirectly by Plinius and Tacticus.

The three writers mention a man named Cristo, Cristus & Crestus, but never relation him with Jesus.

Suetone in his book,The lives of the tweleve Cesears, makes reference to an edict made by Claudio where he speaks of agitation between the jews caused by Crestos (impulsore Cresto).

Tacticus, en Annales makes a reference about the Cristianos , a group whos name comes from its martyed leader Cristus, killed by the hand of Poncius Pilot.

Finally, Plinio the younger, talking about the works of Trajan, says the emperor never arrested christians, as they didnt bother him, but states that they sang hymns to Christus like he where a god Christus quasi deo.

However theres no references from contempary writers of the time such as Seneca, petronio, Lucano or Plinio the elder.