Infinite Regression

Does it freak anyone else out the way it does me? ITS NOT 3-D LOGIC! who existed before God? and before that? is time consequential.... if not, then what is it..

No such thing as time. The time is ALWAYS NOW.!

ah, the old review of Infinite Regression vs. Irreducible Complexity...

Posting in here will only get you the religious views of fellow ATS members...

It sounds like you are asking yourself questions that no one else can honestly answer for you...

I think you should do some thinking, some research, and come back and post your results...

I'd hate to see you forced into making a decision of this magnitude while being pressured by other people's world views...

and I think you know what decision I'm talking about...

edit to fix double posting...

sorry

[edit on 21-10-2008 by nj2day]

To quote Jubal Harshaw, who was quoting the catholic church, "was then, is now, and ever shall be, world(read Universe or Multivesrse)without end."

Meditate on it for a few years, and just before you reach Nirvana and dive into your belly button and disappear, you will grok it.

(There are some of you who will get this slightly tonque in cheek answer, which is offered with the greatest respect)

Originally posted by governmentsecrets
Does it freak anyone else out the way it does me? ITS NOT 3-D LOGIC! who existed before God? and before that? is time consequential.... if not, then what is it..

It's just turtles.

All the way down.

Originally posted by governmentsecrets
Does it freak anyone else out the way it does me? ITS NOT 3-D LOGIC! who existed before God? and before that? is time consequential.... if not, then what is it..

Asking this is like asking what is at the end of the universe? Since we know that it is expanding there as to be something for it to expand into.

or

If the Big Bang theory is correct and it all started from a single point of light that exploded. Where did that single point of light come from? If the universe was void before it happened then where did the matter come from? Something cannot come from nothing.

or

If God is really clarvoyient then what is the point of worrying if I am going to hell or not? If God already knows then I have nothing to worry about. If I have free will then God couldn't know what I will choose in the future, therefore he does not know if I will go to hell or not. If he doesn't know then he isn't clarvoyient, so therefore he isn't God.


The point is that there are some questions you may never know the answers to whether it be in life or death.

reply to post by governmentsecrets


I see our existence in this universe both a matter of luck but also profound creation in which ALL the factors of the early universe were right for us to eventually be here talking about it. if the universe spread out too fast right after the big bang, it would have expanded forever and matter would have become so diffuse that no galaxies would have been able to form. If the universe spread out too slowly after the big bang, it would have simply collapsed back onto itself. But everything occurred perfectly so that we live in a universe that we can rest at ease knowing is still expanding and creating life.

Without time, there could have never been a big-bang. Without time, we could never exist. I see time as more of a symptom of our dimensional reality on this plane of existence. Time is directly linked to everything in our universe. Every particle and every atom. We know this because we know that time can become warped by matter with extreme density like what creates a black hole (dead stars collapsing onto themselves under their own gravity). Time is effected by gravity, and everything in our universe with mass has gravity. It is inescapable. We just happen to experience time in a very specific way but there might even be intelligent beings that exist on timescales much faster, or slower, than ours.

An old episode of Star Trek voyager illustrated this quite well. For millions of years a civilization on this planet saw a star in the sky but what they were seeing was actually voyager in their upper atmosphere. Later on they realized that it really was a ship, so they sent up astronauts to figure out what was going on. I won't give away the show, but it made for a great episode and its a really mind-boggling (yet feasible) way of looking at how time works.

For a while I've had an idea... I'll try to keep it as short as possible..

Scientists now know there are probably white holes out there as well as black holes. I hadn't read about this until last year. But 3 years ago I had a really neat idea. The black hole/white hole connection is what is commonly referred to as a wormhole (a possible way for matter to be expelled in a completely different part of the universe at a completely different time). And back a couple years ago I had a similar idea involving matter becoming "warped" in the singularity of a black hole. If the matter can be accelerated or somehow "crushed" in a way that accelerates the leftovers of that matter to faster than the speed of light, that matter might be "teleported" back in time to an earlier version of the universe (possibly even creating the big-bang itself). Now, this is really interesting for a few reasons, and I don't think people fully appreciate what this would really mean.

Now, take a breather..
Let's hypothesize, for a second, that a small fraction of super-massive black holes actually create wormholes to an earlier version of the universe (let's say 7%). First of all, that is a massive number when you consider the entirety of the universe... Look at it this way..

The universe is still expanding, so any timeframe earlier than now is going to have a universe with much smaller total volume. In other words, go back in time a few billion years, the universe will be much smaller than it is now.

Now, if those 7% of black holes all have white holes that existed billions of years ago, and those white holes are basically 'spewing' matter into an early universe, things get much more interesting. If you consider all black holes that every existed and will ever exist, that 7% now becomes exponentially larger. Each black hole would inevitably create a white hole that would eventually end up at a timeframe dependant upon the mass of the black hole's singularity..
(The larger a black hole is, the further back in time it would send that "matter" I talked about earlier).

But here is the clincher...

If the universe was smaller and smaller the further you go back in time (eventually ending up at one tiny point in space as most scientists think the big-bang really occurred) then those "white holes" we talked about earlier have a smaller and smaller universe to exist in the further back in time you go. Perhaps the "nothing" that was here before the universe can't even hold matter of any kind for whatever bizarre reason. That would mean that the white holes MUST exist in this smaller and smaller space the further back in time you go.

You end up at one tiny point of the universe where untold numbers of white holes are trying to pop into existence. Suddenly an explosion inevitably occurs at a single point (the big-bang) thus this universe is created by the black holes that won't exist for another few million/billion years from that point.

It would basically be black holes of today creating the very universe we live in today by having the capability of sending matter back in time through these "wormholes" between black holes and white holes. Now, if you look at this really bizarre idea from the standpoint of linear time from the big-bang on.. things would mostly depend on what particle physicists call "probabilities". As soon as the probability is inevitable for a future black holes to exist, the white holes will pop into existence all at once..creating an explosive blast of unimaginable proporations..

I haven't heard any scientists talk about this theory yet.. And I am not a scientist nor have I studied physics or science much in college. But when you look at time and existence from the standpoint of "everything is linked" then you really start to understand how time really operates. Everything that is and everything that will ever be has, quite possibly, already been determined by quantum probability. And if you believe the "electric universe" theories then you might say that God is not only a part of the universe but "God IS the universe, God IS time, God IS every living thing that will ever exist in this universe and every atomic/subatomic particle that will ever exist.

-ChriS

[edit on 22-10-2008 by BlasteR]