How is this democracy???

Originally posted by American Mad Man

As for the voting system of having 2 major sides, it is MUCH better then having a bunch of smaller ones. Check out the history of italian politics...you'll see what I mean.

How can you possibly say that 2 major sides to a democracy is MUCH better than having a small bunch of small ones???....HOW SO???....id rather have more choice in the matter of who is going to be dictating my country....well dictating is probably a harsh word....maybe governing is a better word, but it seems the american government uses those as synonym's of each other.

Amuk, I vote libertarian on the local and state level where they currently have a better chance of winning. My hope is that if enough are elected on that level one of them might gain enough traction to become govenor .............and then who knows.

Right now my vote on the national election counts to much, remember Perot.

I suppose this is just as true with Nader for those of "that" persuasion.

Just took the short little quiz at www.lp.org....

According to it, I agreed with the Libertarians on 4 out of 7 issues. Agreed with Dems on 1 issue and the Green Party on 2. I am pleasently surprised at the results and will probably take a closer look at the Libertarian Party.

The Libratarians Platform is probably too logical to ever be adopted though. At least any time soon.

Originally posted by Phoenix
Amuk, I vote libertarian on the local and state level where they currently have a better chance of winning. My hope is that if enough are elected on that level one of them might gain enough traction to become govenor .............and then who knows.

Right now my vote on the national election counts to much, remember Perot.

I suppose this is just as true with Nader for those of "that" persuasion.

Glad to see so many Libertarians on these threads I have started a thread on this VERY subject (voting)

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Check it out

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Well from my experience money makes money. The problem is not in the system, but rather the people.

So money magically grows on trees now, huh? If you have no money to make money, where are you supposed to make this money? Unless you have family willing to help, or are lucky enough to have gotten a decent job and don't have the luxury of living with mommy and daddy then it's not as simple as just getting money, now is it?

You get money, to pay for your rent, your food, your bills, then MAYBE if you're lucky you have a little bit left over. Try putting yourself through college (I mean yourself, not family or scholarships) on a job that pays $8 bucks an hour.

Credit is becoming a bigger and bigger part of people's lives (unlike your grandparents day) which people live outside their means.

What happens if something goes wrong? Uh oh, their screwed.

The easy access, 0 money down generation is living it up. What people are NOT doing is living on a budget as much, saving money, using that money to make money.

Again, you are wrong. Wanna know why many people have so much credit debt? Because many people are scratching a living, over working and underpaid doing jobs that are there to create the working poor. Any little upset to the delicate balance people live their financial lives by can be devastating. If you don't understand that, then you've never been in the real world.

Sorry to say that the current economy is such that it does take some money to make real money in that you use others money (banks etc) to make some for your own.

To put yourself into debt?

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
It's easy to sit back and complain about the system rather than take responsibility for it.

It's always someone elses fault, isn't it?

And it's easy to sit back and be ignorant to the entire problem that is the working poor, meanwhile you cast your vote thinking it matters.

So it's harder for you to find a job that you want than it has been at times in the past? Who promised you a job anyway? You were promised the right to:

1. Life, which you have.
2. Liberty, which you also have, and the fact that you can come to a board like this and say what you want proves it.
3. The pursuit of happiness, which you are responsible for yourself.

Try finding a job in some parts of the country doing something other than flipping burgers or digging ditches. You all just make it sound like it's so easy, when in fact you have no idea of what you're talking about.

I love my country but I swear, Americans are some of the most spoiled people and have been for enough generations now that people think they are somehow entitled to what they have the right to pursue.

I can agree that American's are spoiled. But then again, try telling people that live in ghetto's that they are spoiled. Or try telling the average college student that is working a college job and working at a strip bar to pay for her education that won't mean a damn thing once she graduates anyways, that she is spoiled.

Or try telling the college graduate with a degree in engineering, or psychology or one of the many other fields that he/she is spoiled.

People that graduate today have a very very small chance of working in the field they trained to work in because those jobs are taken. And especially in todays economy, jobs in many of the better paying fields are non-existant.

If we are doing so badly and are so poor, then explain how the 2nd biggest overall health care problem in the US right now is Obesity. If you have enough money and time to sit on your ass and stuff your face with enough food to make yourself fat, then I don't consider you poor, just stupid.

How about explaining to me why the richest nation in the world has the worlds largest class gaps?

It has occured to me that most of you who choose to give up the power of your vote (however much or little power you think that is) would probably vote for someone I don't want to see in power anyway, so go ahead, don't vote.

And go ahead and keep voting. Afterwards, I am sure the country will improve immediately...

In all of this talk about jobs and money and all that other meaningless #. What are the working poor supposed to do for fun? You know, fun. Something else everyone is entitled to, not just the upper classes...

[Edited on 28-3-2004 by Thorfinn Skullsplitter]

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
It's easy to sit back and complain about the system rather than take responsibility for it.

You'll never understand. I guess you're one of those who's incapable. Why the hell would anyone take part in a system they don't even believe in? You see, what you're suggesting is the same as Christians saying that you should go to church, even if you don't believe in god. What have you got to lose? Both of these scenarios are beyond ridiculous, of course. A non-religious person attending church, and a non-believer in our gov't voting? You can't see how ridiculous that is? Now, if the US Gov. ever gets back to what it's supposed to be, I'm sure more people will support it and participate. So many are just fed up, and gave up.

Originally posted by Amuk
They are the third largest party in america right behind the big two, who hope and pray that you will believe that they dont exist. I just wonder how they get the media to give them almost NO coverage. They cover the greens, hell they cover the american Nazi party more than they cover the THIRD LARGEST party in america.

I wonder why?

And by the way this nonexistant party just had its national confrence in atlantia

You must have forgotten. This country was created by hardcore Libertarians. Are you saying that the Libertarian party of yesteryear isn't the Libertarian party of today? Their issues seem to be the same. There are no Libertarians currently in power, are there?

[Edited on 3-28-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Just took the short little quiz at www.lp.org....

According to it, I agreed with the Libertarians on 4 out of 7 issues. Agreed with Dems on 1 issue and the Green Party on 2. I am pleasently surprised at the results and will probably take a closer look at the Libertarian Party.

The Libratarians Platform is probably too logical to ever be adopted though. At least any time soon.

I'm glad you took a look. That's what our country was originally based on.

You must have forgotten. This country was created by hardcore Libertarians. Are you saying that the Libertarian party of yesteryear isn't the Libertarian party of today? Their issues seem to be the same. There are no Libertarians currently in power, are there?

What?

I am a Libertarian and yes it is what built this country, as I have hounded into the ground on these boards.

And according to the newsletter I recieve we currently have over 300 people in office including 1-2 in congress.

The only reason we dont have more IMO is that we get almost NO coverage by the media. If we did EVERY freedom loving person from both parties would join us and we would be the largest party.

I misunderstood what you were saying. Sorry, I misread that. I thought you were criticizing the Libertarian party. I thought you were saying they hope you don't know they exist! DOH!

I know what you're saying about media coverage. They are practically non-existent as far as PR goes. I hope that will change as people get more and more fed up with our current mockery of the American way.

[Edited on 3-28-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Satyr
I misunderstood what you were saying. Sorry, I misread that. I thought you were criticizing the Libertarian party.

Not at all I think they are the sole hope of this country, I have belonged to the Libertarian party for about 25 years if memory serves me correct, and my fondest dream is to see a Lib President.

I thought you were saying they hope you don't know they exist! DOH!

LOL..... I meant that the big two hope no one finds out about us because if they do they will lose......big time

I can't say I'm really a Libertarian, but I do believe they're our only hope for getting the corruption out of our system, and putting America back on track. I suppose I'm more of an Anarchist, since I tend to believe the gov't will have to be completely abolished before anything better will take it's place.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
Try finding a job in some parts of the country doing something other than flipping burgers or digging ditches. You all just make it sound like it's so easy, when in fact you have no idea of what you're talking about.

I agree! Only because I happened to pick the worst time to quit my job and move to another state, then try to find a job. I never would have guessed it would be so difficult to get another decent job, if I hadn't quit the one I had. Go ahead, apply for some jobs and see how many you actually get hired for. I'll bet you'll be amazed with how many interviews you won't get. I sure was, and I've never had problems getting interviews or jobs in the past. People who haven't had the misfortune of losing a job during this time have no idea how bad it is. If I'd stayed at my previous job, I'd have no idea either.

[Edited on 3-28-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Satyr
I can't say I'm really a Libertarian, but I do believe they're our only hope for getting the corruption out of our system, and putting America back on track. I suppose I'm more of an Anarchist, since I tend to believe the gov't will have to be completely abolished before anything better will take it's place.

I am Libertarian with Anarchist leanings but I believe that government is a nessary evil to an extent. If you get rid of ALL government than another group will just take over.

the Government is a monster but if we keep it starved and weak than we can control it and keep it from doing TOO much harm

I'm reading your long post thinking maybe this guy has a point and then the thoughts in my head were Skull split right at the end by this salient point pardon the pun TFSS.

Quoting Thorfinnskullsplit,
"In all of this talk about jobs and money and all that other meaningless #. What are the working poor supposed to do for fun? You know, fun. Something else everyone is entitled to, not just the upper classes..."

Many other posters in this thread pointed out that Americans are spoiled and feel entitled to benefits they did not exactly earn, rather just because they went to school or trained in some vocation - society owes them for their supreme sacrifice and time. (In reality their idealism was promoted to death in school by professors not willing to be truthful)

Sorry but your statement proved the point that americans feel entitlement to things they have not personally earned, where oh where does the constitution guarantee a good time - can you show me cause I missed that. What should we do offer free golfing vacations to Hawaii or something, get real dude.

Try finding a job in some parts of the country doing something other than flipping burgers or digging ditches. You all just make it sound like it's so easy, when in fact you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Some of the Jobs I have had

Digging ditches
Dumping barrels of chicken guts into a maggot infested truck
Hoseing out those maggot infested trucks
Rolling up bloody cow hides
Killing those cows
Killing other people
Pumping out septic tanks
Hauling trash


Nope I wouldnt know anything about a bad job.

Originally posted by Phoenix
I'm reading your long post thinking maybe this guy has a point and then the thoughts in my head were Skull split right at the end by this salient point pardon the pun TFSS.

Quoting Thorfinnskullsplit,
"In all of this talk about jobs and money and all that other meaningless #. What are the working poor supposed to do for fun? You know, fun. Something else everyone is entitled to, not just the upper classes..."

Many other posters in this thread pointed out that Americans are spoiled and feel entitled to benefits they did not exactly earn, rather just because they went to school or trained in some vocation - society owes them for their supreme sacrifice and time. (In reality their idealism was promoted to death in school by professors not willing to be truthful)

Sorry but your statement proved the point that americans feel entitlement to things they have not personally earned, where oh where does the constitution guarantee a good time - can you show me cause I missed that. What should we do offer free golfing vacations to Hawaii or something, get real dude.

I think I know what he means. It's not that anyone is whining because they feel someone owes them a job. They're whining because no one seems to want to give anyone the chance to prove they can do the job. It's gotten to the point where less qualified people are hired for their education, and not for their abilities. Then you end up with a bunch of spoiled citizens running all of the upper end jobs and getting all the favors they never really deserved in the first place. This excludes people who had to work for their college degrees while working two jobs at the same time to pay for it and support themselves, but those who literally have no idea what it means to be fully independent. Those are the ones who want the gov to take care of them, and get rid of the nasty people they don't like. People who use drugs, alcohol, smoke cigs, people who want to choose whether they wear their helmets or seatbelts, etc. These are the undesireables because they don't buy what the gov't thinks it's role is now. Sorry, I'm ranting now. LOL

[Edited on 3-28-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Phoenix
Sorry but your statement proved the point that americans feel entitlement to things they have not personally earned, where oh where does the constitution guarantee a good time - can you show me cause I missed that. What should we do offer free golfing vacations to Hawaii or something, get real dude.

So the average company executive that makes 400 times more than the average laborer is more worthy of being able to enjoy himself? How exactly?

The constitution has nothing to do with it. I am talking about HUMAN rights, not some bull# piece of paper telling me what my rights are. You are entitled to enjoy yourself. Not just the lazy ass CEO's that continually # over their hourly employee's. Do we need another amendment to tell us that we are allowed to have fun every now and then? I don't think so.

I've done some pretty messed up jobs myself, Amuk. Being a temp had some of the worst.

If you don't like your situation or the job you do, why don't you change it? Ever heard of educating yourself? Retraining? Moving to somewhere where you can find better work? Read a book. Learn something new and useful to somebody. Geez.

Bravo Phoenix. You said it. Nobody promised a good time.

No one has answered my Obesity question yet. How do poor people afford that much food and have the time to eat it? Not poking fun at fat people, but this is a real contridiction to what some of you are saying.

I keep hearing the term "Working Poor". What is that? What consitutes poor? What exactly does it take to not be working poor? $100,000 house? Two cars? Paid Vacation? How many TVs do you have to have? How many rental movies per week? See, I think its a matter of what you have come to expect. A lot of you seem to have given up on the "American Dream", but you have bought into the media version of it nonetheless. You expect to have a certain amount of stuff or "fun" and ya get pissed off when you don't get it, especially when others are getting theirs. Of course the problem is certainly not you. It must be the system that's broken.

On a good note, reading back it seems a consensus of a sorts has been reached. Most everyone agrees that the Libertarians are a positive thing. Oh, but wait. I guess since my vote doesn't count and we have no say at all, and it's hopeless, it would be just a waste of time to check out the Libertarian Party or what they stand for.

Bummer.

You sound just like a republican. FYI, anyone poor enough can get enough food stamps to get fat. Food is not generally a problem here in the good old US of A. The unemployed might not be able to pay their rent, but they can get food.

[Edited on 3-28-2004 by Satyr]

www.albatrus.org...

Democracy Versus Republic

These succinct definitions of what is Democracy and what is a Republic was produced by the US Army in 1928, These definitions have been quietly withdrawn since, soon after.

Democracy:

A government of the masses.

Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression.

Results in mobocracy.

Attitude toward property is comunistic-negating property rights.

Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate. whether it be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences.

Results in demagogism license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.

Democracy is the "direct" rule of the people and has been repeatedly tried without success.

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[edit on 22-3-2009 by 12m8keall2c]