The "up-to-the-minute Market Data" thread

reply to post by RetinoidReceptor


Their money comes from Trade Surplus. They generate wealth. We don't have a surplus.. we create money out of thin air, while 70% of our GDP comes from the likes of Wal Mart and McDonalds.. which sends wealth away .. not bringing it in..

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Their money comes from Trade Surplus. They generate wealth. We don't have a surplus.. we create money out of thin air, while 70% of our GDP comes from the likes of Wal Mart and McDonalds.. which sends wealth away .. not bringing it in..

Exactly. WalMart (not really McDonald's) sends A LOT of wealth over to other countries/ This is exactly my point. China benefits far more from WalMart's addition to its GDP than appreciation in the dollar...And also why they have no problem keeping the fu*ked up limbo train that has become the U.S. economy trodding along because we are spewing wealth all around the world. It is an elaborate scheme, and all countries are involved. If you guys think they aren't happily supporting it, then you guys are...well...wrong.

reply to post by RetinoidReceptor


Right.. but lets assume China turns to a Pro-China policy and decides to F over America by financially screwing us.

Is America going to embargo China? Are we going to Boycot?

Half of America would be unemployed the next day, and an underground trade of cheap chinese crap would develop in the shadow economy Not to mention there wouldn't be anything to buy, so our retailers (who also don't generate wealth) would go buh-bye.....

America has everything to loose.

China at least as a pro-con sheet to look at...

America? We get to stare at the chains of consumerism we bound our fate to..

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
It is an elaborate scheme, and all countries are involved. If you guys think they aren't happily supporting it, then you guys are...well...wrong.

You are correct, however, China's (and the former USSR's) mission all along was to give western economies just enough rope to hang themselves...(google China economic war for numerous examples)The US has happily wrapped the noose around it's own neck and China is standing ready at the gallows trap door lever. The US is so compromised by China's brilliant plan that the US may be forced to devalue the dollar as it's only means of escaping the noose...of course, that would mean world war...

[edit on 16-8-2009 by RolandBrichter]

Originally posted by Rockpuck

America has everything to loose.

China at least as a pro-con sheet to look at...

America? We get to stare at the chains of consumerism we bound our fate to..

See this is where you are wrong. It is true that it will be devastating if we didn't have China on the short term...but if we didn't, the manufacturing and production base would slowly come back to this country if the dollar was lower than all the other currencies in the world. China ONLY has outsourced labor to count on right now. It would be much more dire.

I mean you guys saying China will intentionally devalue the dollar by calling in debt or selling reserves is ridiculous. Just look at their actions. They are constantly trying to devalue the yuan against the dollar...if they really had this trump card that you guys are talking about, they wouldn't be doing everything in their power to avoid that scenario.

The only way China will call in those debts is with America's blessing or a back up plan so it wouldn't cause financial chaos across the world. That is all.

by retinoid receptor
Was it from us or was it through great innovation on their part?

reply to post by RetinoidReceptor


The same thing should be asked about the FIRE economy in this country. Did Finance, Insurance and Real Estate get their money from us or was it some great innovation on their part? They're definitely getting our money now via public bailout.

But they never 'produced' anything in the first place, except inflation. Who wasn't asking themselves over the last few years how a house could appreciate a 100k a year in some cases? It was easy money from the Fed (low interest rates) that fueled speculation. So if you want to call that Innovation fine, that Innovation has enslaved us to the banks. So under your logic, the banks must find a way to make sure we can continue purchasing.

But they're not doing that. They're keeping all OUR money at the fed (owned by them) for safe keeping. And they're still insolvent because of another innovation: OTC Derivatives. Which allowed them to take huge bonuses while creating a blackhole of Hundreds of Trillions.

So innovation is useful only when it actually produces something. That's how they got to be the Creditor and we got to be the Debtor. Somehow many cling to the idea that a broke confederation can continue on as a world power. Maybe they should explain to the USSR how that works. But it's different this time because it's US right? It's a myopic view of the world that I choose not to participate in.

reply to post by HimWhoHathAnEar


Now you are totally switching the tables and talking about banks vs. people. I pretty much agree with what you are writing about that, but that wasn't what I was talking about.

This is what china is DOING.

Beijing will use its foreign exchange reserves, the largest in the world, to support and accelerate overseas expansion and acquisitions by Chinese companies, Wen Jiabao, the country’s premier, said in comments published on Tuesday.

The Chinese government has intentionally run a large trade surplus and built up a $2 trillion reserve in foreign holdings - much of it in US sovereign debt. So they have the cash needed to do the buying.

China has long been scouring the globe for energy and commodities to feed its thrumming economy. What is new is the leadership’s determination to increase outbound foreign direct investment, or O.F.D.I., as it weans the economy off low-value, export-oriented manufacturing. The deal by Sinopec, the largest Chinese oil refiner, to buy the Swiss oil explorer Addax for $7.24 billion last month was China’s largest overseas acquisition yet.

Letting the Chinese get control of more mineral resources is a bad idea. China already restricts export of a variety of minerals including rare ones not available elsewhere.

www.parapundit.com...

The chinese have stated that the Reserves are being used for this massive acquisition push. So in a sense they are already being dumped. The chinese are just doing it in a strategic way so as not to destroy the reserve before spending as much as possible.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
reply to post by HimWhoHathAnEar

 

Now you are totally switching the tables and talking about banks vs. people. I pretty much agree with what you are writing about that, but that wasn't what I was talking about.

I don't think I was, I was using a comparison between our relationship with China and americans relationship with the banks to illustrate the Creditor/Debtor relationship you questioned earlier. Sorry for the confusion.

Hmmm...what's up with this insight?

Lo and behold... :shk:

* DiverCity:
seekingalpha.com...

Agreed that the USGovt can orchestrate a big devaluation by the means you describe. However, as others have said, that would be too disorderly and leave matters out of central bank control. An orderly, albeit very abrupt, devaluation is the goal, I would think.

On Jul 16 11:00 AM Screwloose wrote:

> Do you still need a "bank holiday" to devalue a floating currency?
> Under a fixed-value gold standard, maybe; but these days?
>
> All a big devaluation would take is for the Fed to reveal that it's
> been fiddling the "indirect" Treasury bids through secret swap deals
> with other central banks and that China is now only buying the short
> end.
>
> Leak something like that and devaluing the dollar isn't going to
> be a problem - although supporting it from total collapse might be....
>
>
> To devalue it only against gold/silver they simply need to direct
> the COMEX-manipulating banks to take a "holiday" - preferably a permanent
> one.
Jul 17 12:43 PM

Hmmm...

# admin on August 1st, 2009 1:40 am
blog.macatawa .net

The latest information I have read is that September 30, 2009 there will be a switch to the new Treasury Dollar from the Federal Reserve Note. This new Treasury Dollar supposedly will be in compliance with the Basil III anti-money laundering rules. This September 30 date also matches up with the current speculation on the upcoming Bank Holiday. The new Treasury Dollar is supposed to be backed by gold and will be worth 1/35th a gram of gold. Not all banks are cooperating with this move.

How the exchange will occur with Fed Notes to Treasury Dollars, I am not sure. But if not all banks cooperate with the switch from the Fed, then there will likely be runs on those banks. There has only been one proven way to stop a run on banks…you guessed it, a Bank Holiday.

Clayton

[edit on 8/16/2009 by Hx3_1963]

reply to post by Hx3_1963

Yes, there seems to be alot of talk about the coming devaluation and how it will play out. The thing I find interesting is that people don't seem to put inflation and devaluation in the same category. It's like if you devalue the currency then you're in the deflationary camp, where as, if you inflate it, etc.

In my mind devaluation is the same as (hyper)Inflation in the sense that you are making your paper worth less. If you come out with a new note and say that it's worth six times more than the old one, then you just inflated the old one by 600%! In a deflationary scenario, the money is becoming worth more and no such devaluation is necessary.

I'm guessing the Shanghai Composite is once again the one to watch tonight...Hmmm...maybe not... :shk:

NZSE 50 3,135.31 6:26PM ET Down 15.95 (0.51%)
NZSE 50 3,128.74 8:02PM ET Down 22.52 (0.71%)
NZSE 50 3,125.85 8:13PM ET Down 25.41 (0.81%)
NZSE 50 3,123.25 8:20PM ET Down 28.01 (0.89%)
NZSE 50 3,122.46 8:23PM ET Down 28.80 (0.91%)
NZSE 50 3,121.42 8:43PM ET Down 29.84 (0.95%)
NZSE 50 3,114.61 8:58PM ET Down 36.65 (1.16%)

Nikkei 225 10,518.66 8:02PM ET Down 78.67 (0.74%)
Nikkei 225 10,503.28 8:03PM ET Down 94.05 (0.89%)
Nikkei 225 10,496.97 8:04PM ET Down 100.36 (0.95%)
Nikkei 225 10,442.27 8:13PM ET Down 155.06 (1.46%)
Nikkei 225 10,438.03 8:14PM ET Down 159.30 (1.50%)
Nikkei 225 10,395.92 8:42PM ET Down 201.41 (1.90%)
Nikkei 225 10,372.78 9:00PM ET Down 224.55 (2.12%)

Japan's Nikkei falls 0.7 pct, dented by exporters
www.reuters.com...

Seoul Composite 1,585.90 8:03PM ET Down 5.51 (0.35%)
Seoul Composite 1,582.72 8:04PM ET Down 8.69 (0.55%)
Seoul Composite 1,576.72 8:43PM ET Down 14.69 (0.92%)
Seoul Composite 1,575.69 9:01PM ET Down 15.72 (0.99%)

Straits Times 2,580.96 9:03PM ET Down 33.22 (1.27%)
Straits Times 2,583.37 9:06PM ET Down 48.14 (1.83%)

DJIA FV Futures 9293.4 9268.0 -25.40

Gold $943.35

Silver $14.45

Oil $66.97

[edit on 8/16/2009 by Hx3_1963]

I took this pict. this morning 8-16-09 (Sunday) I know. I started a post that got quickly burried. So this was on Fox Biz for about 2 hrs. this morning.

files.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by 5 oClock
I saw that thread...tonight might be a window into that becoming true tomorrow...

Shanghai Composite 2,975.49 9:36PM ET Down 71.48 (2.35%)
Nikkei 225 10,356.57 9:25PM ET Down 240.76 (2.27%)
Straits Times 2,575.11 9:40PM ET Down 39.07 (1.49%)

DJIA FV Futures 9293.4 9265.0 -28.40

[edit on 8/16/2009 by Hx3_1963]

reply to post by Hx3_1963


Man I was bummed when it got burried so quick.
I'm just not the articulate novelist as some appear to be on ATS.
We'll see on Monday.

If it does happen. I'm out

reply to post by 5 oClock
Ah...don't feel bad...I got a whole foot-locker full of 2 flaggers

If it turns out like that...Twilight Zone stuff!!!

Shanghai Composite 2,973.76 9:38PM ET Down 73.22 (2.40%)
Hang Seng 20,467.30 9:56PM ET Down 426.03 (2.04%)
Nikkei 225 10,353.25 9:38PM ET Down 244.08 (2.30%)
Straits Times 2,579.03 9:55PM ET Down 35.15 (1.34%)

DJIA FV Futures 9293.4 9263.0 -30.40

Gold $942.72

Oil $66.90

[edit on 8/16/2009 by Hx3_1963]

Jeeebus O'Peete...

Read this, Buckle the Heck Up and explain to me how we're not totally phu##ed..

It's the best case I've read yet for why we are soon heading for (or already in) a DEFLATIONARY SPIRAL...

I've been leaning towards the deflation argument, but these charts absolutely seal it for me....Given the present course that the money morons have taken, I was actually hoping for inflation to kick in and at least make the coming mess a little easier to swallow, but the facts show the opposite...this is going to be a nightmare... all I can think of is Owen Wilson's words in Armageddon..."Scariest environment imaginable...thanks. That's all you had to say, scariest environment imaginable"

My heart truly goes out to those who can't see this coming...

[edit on 16-8-2009 by RolandBrichter]

reply to post by 5 oClock


That HAD to be a mis-print on Fox, DJIA futures trading didn't even open until 1pm ET this afternoon

Here's a chart from today

finance.yahoo.com...=DJU09.CBT;range=1d

reply to post by RolandBrichter


Great info RB. That is some serious debunking of the rosey picture MSM is trying to push on us.

[edit on 16-8-2009 by 5 oClock]

reply to post by redhatty


Yes, I understand that, that's why I took the pict. probably just a mistake but for about 2 hours on FBN? I just wanted to get it out here just in case.


[edit on 16-8-2009 by 5 oClock]

[edit on 16-8-2009 by 5 oClock]