Where has this sense of entitlement come from?

reply to post by Constitutional Scholar


I think if someone has paid their way through college, paid tax their whole life of which only our government seems to have the joy of, it is fair that they would be a little reluctant to find a job as a greeter anywhere unless absolutely necessary. Besides, being over qualified does quite often eliminate you from jobs that are "below"your education level. You won't even get a foot in the door for obvious reasons.

I think you are mixing up a sense of entitlement and actual entitlement. Taxes are paid by each and every worker throughout their lives. A lot of that on social security therefore, they have the right to receive help when they need it. It is as simple as that.
By refusing said help is the same as saving your money and the bank not giving it to you.

Whether you like it or not, you live in a society. No man is an island and all that.

reply to post by Lebowski achiever


One does not receive social security when "they need help". If so, you wouldnt need to be a certain age to qualify for those "benefits".

reply to post by Constitutional Scholar


You might want to read the constitution before you declare something to be unconstitutional. Article 1, Section 8 might be very illuminating to you. In fact, I have a suspicion that you're one of those types who's never read beyond the second and 14th amendments, has absolutely no familiarity whatsoever with constitutional law or court decisions on th matter, and are just some self-saluting goober on the internet who believes himself to be the messiah of constitutionality. Very likely you consider yourself a libertarian ("little l, not big!" no doubt!) sent to this world to educate.

You know what, bucko, we do deserve entitlement from our government. it's called taxation. We pay for the amenities of a civilized society through this method. In exchange for footing the salaries of bureaucrats who organize the whole shebang because most of us have better things to do, we earn entitlement to the many benefits and rewards offered as part and parcel.

Now perhaps you also feel taxation is unconstitutional. Again, this would be an example of having never read the constitution, and I would recommend living in some place generally free of taxation, such as Somalia, or Pitcairn Island, or some other hole in the earth.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


If you wish to debate Constitutional knowledge, I would be happy to oblige you.

Article 1 Section 8 is what I base my comments on in terms of welfare, education, and healthcare being unconstitutional.


Should I post the words of the founding fathers for you to back up my contentions?

reply to post by Constitutional Scholar


Please do, so long as you remember that "the words of the founding fathers" are extralegal quips from flawed human beings the same as you or I. It's unhealthy to canonize people if you're not running a religion, after all.

Article 1, section 8 allows Congress to pass laws, in part, to "provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States." Now that's a pretty broad category, that "general welfare," don't you think?

While we're on the subject of welfare, what, exactly do you mean as "Welfare"? I am of course making hte huge assumption that you're lucid enough to know there's no single program stamped with "welfare" - and that no matter how often the word conjures up reaganista boogeymen in your sorts, you very rarely have a defined grasp of everything it entails.

I assume you include the good stamp program, for example. How about the department of transportation? Technically paying for and maintaining roads is also part of "welfare." Certainly the Department of Defense does! All three are granted for in Article 1, Section 8, yet I have a suspicion that only the first would figure into your definition of "Welfare"

Why is that?

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


- General welfare, not the individual.

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but
an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison, 1792

- You should already know that A1 S8 provides funds for the building of post roads, as well as for the military. However, it provides no power to fund charitable programs, or programs to relieve the INDIVIDUAL of their problems.

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." - Thomas Jefferson, 1798

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." - James Madison criticizing an attempt to grant public monies for charitable means, 1794

Of course there is no program stamped welfare, thanks for proving my point.

Again, general welfare= whats good for the nation, not the individual.

Please tell us what well-paying-I-can-sit-on-my-butt-at-home job that you have? I keep hearing about this myth, but the truth is, there are very few such opportunities available. Sure, some call center jobs, but not many. Some editorial jobs, requiring a degree. Some medical transcription jobs - in high demand and also requiring training AND are few and far between with a high demand. Phone sex maybe. Oh yeah, and being paid to post on forums, fill in product reviews, process product rebates, etc. Oh and reselling, wholesale dropbox, etc stuff. I suppose ANY job COULD be a telecommuting job, but the days where that's the accepted norm, and not the exception, aren't here yet

So if you have a list of other jobs that you think someone can simply just apply themselves to (and the implication here is, if you can't, you're lazy), and make a decent living, I'd like to see it. Because otherwise, I'd have to disagree with you.

.

reply to post by Jadette


I prefer to keep my career private, as there are not many people who do what I do, but for a small hint I will just say this: I am a sales broker (and yes, the equipment I help broker the sale of is completely legal).

Want a very lucrative career from home? Become an affiliate marketer of either mainstream, or adult websites.

A good friend of mine lives basically the same way I do while clearing a nice 6 figure salary as an affiliate marketer for numerous adult websites. He works a whopping 2 or 3 hours a day. It isnt something you can make money off of overnight (the reason most people fail at it), but after 2 or 3 years someone who actually makes a worthwhile effort at it would be nicely rewarded.

Part of it might be the sense that with every generation, standard of living is supposed to increase, which isn't the case at least here in the USA. So when the expectation isn't met, they look towards government.

I think the younger generation is going to get a nasty wakeup call on entitlements sometime in the future. Basically, we won't have any entitlements lol. The projections for the future are like 3 workers for every person on social security. Most of my peers don't think social security is going to exist by the time they go to collect, and with good reason. So more than likely, we'll be paying an even higher tax in the future, while getting much less in terms of entitlements, because the older folks have sucked us dry. Gotta pay for SS, medicare, and the national debt somehow.

reply to post by ghaleon12

Good post


The idea of entitlements is self defeating...thank god. We simply cannot and will not be able afford them anymore. And those of you thinking you are going to have social security when you are 65 are kidding yourselves.


[edit on 12-10-2008 by Gateway]

reply to post by Constitutional Scholar


Affiliate Marketer jobs fall into the same catagory of some of the others I listed. Nearly every "You too can work from home" is one of these. And while, yes, it is possible to make money at them, the idea that someone can work a few hours a week and make 6 figures a year, is the exception and as you see on every one of these sites, "Figures shown are not an example of typical income."

But /my/ point is not to go on and on about these jobs but you made a point of saying, "Hey, people who don't make a decent living are just lazy" (and yes, I'm paraphrasing for effect) and then claim that there are all these work at home opportunities for anyone with just a little good old American gumption.

And I don't think that's a fair assessment.

Is it true that we are the Entitlement Generation? Probably. But to claim that that absolves the fact that the government is here to /serve/ the people, and in my opinion that means, not only building roads, but serving society as a whole. We work hard, pay our taxes, do our best to be good citizens. In other words, we do our part. And by god the government better be there if I need them, for example, if I fall on hard times.

This is not the wild wild west, and it will never be again. The days of every man for himself, and only the strongest survive are gone. In society today there's no room for such selfishness. No man should enable himself at the sacrifice of another. /We/ are America, hand in hand, arm in arm.

I pay my taxes, not just for roads, but in the hopes that we can create a better society, together. That no one hungers, either for knowledge or food. That no one feels fear, or pain, or suffers. I want to see my neighbors children go to college, I want to see the elderly man in the next town be taken care of, and live his twilight years in grace.

And MY GOOD WILL isn't contingent on anything. Sure, I'd like to hope we all do our part. I'm going to risk the chance that some will not, in order for the better good. Because MY GOOD WILL isn't about payback.

I hear excuses from many around me as well. It's been growing in the last few years. I have a very painful health condition, but I don't expect anything for free. I'd love the satisfaction of working 9+ hours and coming home all tired. I've been trying to find something I can do at home for the longest time (so if someone out there can help me obtain a home job where I can get the feeling of accomplishment, that would be great!) because I cannot have a set daily schedule because of the uncertainty of my day. I've gotten fired many times because of my health condition.

I look around and I see so many things people take for granted and on top of it, they still complain that things didn't work out for them.

For example, in a fantasy baseball league of mine a couple guys complained that they didn't win the money at the end of the year and how unfair the league was. They lost not because of unfairness, but because they took less than 5 minutes weekly updating their team. Again, wanting something for literally doing nothing. A bad example, but you get my point.

You forgot a couple more excuses: "they do it, why shouldn't I?" and "i deserve it."

I agree with you, and I, like you, wonder where has this sense come from? Maybe because problems in sitcoms are resolved in 30 minutes? Maybe because of societies quicker pace with things like the microwave, computer etc.? Maybe because victories in video games are easy once it's solved, but not in life? Probably a combination.

And some of you will think I'm scum for being on disability (I won't say what I have unless you ask me privately) , wanting something for nothing. No, the people on disability who shouldn't be--the fakers, they are scum. I had to fight for my "nothing." And hopefully, before I leave, I will have helped others like me, spread some laughs, taught some minds and opened some eyes --not lie around eating Cheetos.

As far as being ashamed...not a second goes by where it pains me that I cannot contribute in a working society.

Originally posted by Constitutional Scholar
reply to post by 4N6310

 

You already have what you have worked for correct?

Do you believe you are "owed" anything else?

Yes to the first question for the most part. Either that or it exists virtually in the form of 401K or stock options, but the amount in my 401K and stock is laughable anyways. I never really had any faith in or understanding of the whole imaginary money thing. I always thought of it as someone else's game...just not for me.

I do not think I am owed anything, no. Well, just what my taxes have paid for. Maybe patch a few potholes here n there. Change the bulbs in traffic lights...whatever else, but nothing for me personally aside from what is clearly mine.

Remember how it used to be. If you didn't hunt, fish or farm, you didn't eat and all that. I recognize luxury when I see it.

Originally posted by resistor
reply to post by 4N6310

 

Where the heck did this ‘hoarding’ stuff come from? It’s popping up all over and it always strikes me as peculiar. Is my mom a ‘hoarder’ for putting money away for her retirement, and why the heck should she be expected to ‘righteously distribute it in times of need?” She worked her butt off her whole life for what she’s got, and if she decides to keep it in money form, or property, or stored food it’s hers to do with as she wishes. Get your own! I sometimes think that excuses are being made in advance for stealing peoples preparations when the TSHTF.

Well, actually hoarding by definition isn't a bad thing at all. Just as I mentioned, it's like "saving for a rainy day" and I am perfectly entitled to my opinion of what I would consider to be selfish or righteous behavior and what I wouldn't. I don't have the patience to debate specific scenarios.
I never said anything about your mom, so I dunno why you're bringing her into this.
Your paranoia is unfounded. I wouldn't rob anyone...

Originally posted by Constitutional Scholar
Where has this sense of entitlement come from?

From the fact that, for a very long time, people who want to get elected have promised the moon in order to get votes.

"Jimmy Carter had put together the old formula of Franklin Delano Roosevelt: organize the minorities, promise them everything you can promise them and you'll get elected."
– Barry Goldwater.

Pride:

I have held highly paid jobs and owned lucrative businesses, but when I am not "working," even if I have money in the bank, I always get at least one job in the restaurant business. I could go today and get a job as a server or bartender and average $300/night, five nights a week. When I have done that in the past my friends have looked at me like I am crazy, as if I should be embarrassed to have to take such a lowly position.

Wastefulness:

I recently moved into a more expensive house. One of my neighbors commented, "How can a guy who was a server three years ago afford that?" Apparently he could not imagine such a thing as savings.

Envy:

According to one of my old neighbors, that same guy is having trouble sleeping at night because he can not figure out why I can afford a better house for my family and he can not.



People feel entitled because they are not willing to make the hard choices in order to maximize their incomes. They have the mistaken belief that dignity is something they are due, rather than something they project through their own humble attitudes.

Would I work as a greeter at Walmart? If the pay was the best I could get, you bet I would.

The O.P. and Buddhasystem are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Find a balance. A point in the middle of your two arguments is where you probably find both of your answers

Without debating the liberal v. conservative taxation ideologies or the constitutionality of welfare, I have a few comments.

I have been on both sides of this problem. I have been an employer and an employee. I have been a customer and a salesperson. The problem of entitlement lies on both sides.

I don't know if it has always been like this as I am relatively young, but people (in general) today that I have come across in my travels in the US and Canada do want something for nothing. They want a $500 Italian lamb leather jacket that was made in Canada for $100. They want a new car for a dollar down and a dollar a month. They want things they see in ads or in their neighbors' possession and just cannot get their heads around the fact that they cannot afford it. They just don't get it! They think that if they see it, then they deserve to have it whether they can afford it or not, just because it's within arm's reach.

As an employer I did whatever I could to find people who would do an easy, well paying job. All they had to do was show up every day and perform a repetitive task. If they finished early they could leave. They could take breaks whenever they wanted as long as they finished on time. They just had to clean up their mess and they could go home with a full day's pay - that's 8 hours' pay for a task that could be easily finished in 3-4. But I could never find a person who would show up for more than a couple days, outside of an illegal immigrant (whom I would not hire). With the work ethic of the Americans who showed up I sure did think about it though.

Then on the other hand, most employers do not want to pay anyone a living wage. Basically, they just pay the minimum you will work for. It may not be the legal minimum wage, but it's your personal minimum wage. Chris Rock said it best: "You know what it means when your boss pays you minimum wage? It means he doesn't give a f**k about you. He doesn't care if your kids have shoes on or if they got presents for Christmas. It means that if he could legally, he'd pay you less."

Employers expect you to give yourself to a company mind, body, and spirit. Eat, live, and breathe sales, productivity, company mantras. But they come up with some BS name to call your hours so they don't have to pay you full time benefits or overtime pay. They pay you the absolute minimum they can get someone for. They want you to spend at least 8 hours there, at least 1 hour in commute, tons of cash in gas, "appropriate" business attire, and the liquor or pills you need to put a smile on your face to deal with complete dicks for 8 hours every day for not enough money to buy a house before you're 40.

They too want something for nothing. They too believe they are entitled.

reply to post by Constitutional Scholar


To answer the OP, a lot of the sense of entitlement comes from our politicians. They campaign on a platform of class warfare, and promise everything from free college education to more and more "stimulus payments".

"Pay no taxes, yet you'll be able to ride on safe highways in your brand new alternative fuel car. Pay no taxes and still enjoy all the benefits of the USA. In fact, we're gonna give you more free stuff"!

They destroy the foundations of good credit by pushing sub-prime loans on the unsuspecting, and then blame Wall St, when their house of cards collapses.

[edit on 15-10-2008 by jsobecky]