We're already in a great depression+ Communism USA

Our markets would have already collapsed multiple times over if not for massive, beyond massive, government intervention in the past few months buying up companies. If China, or other countries pull out of our investments and don't make tax payers bail us out, we're "on the verge of a meltdown" says Bush.

On a side note, msnbc, fox, and all other news agencies are showing people saying to restrict ceo salaries to that of president, etc... Isn't this communism? How can you run a 500 Billion Dollar company and make $200,000? Who would want that responsibility? Then have everyone after their head if it fails?

Has Communism slowly taken over America, who is dictating polcy when we're bailing out foreigners? We are making our workers pay?

Discuss...

Originally posted by icu20
Our markets would have already collapsed multiple times over if not for massive, beyond massive, government intervention in the past few months buying up companies. If China, or other countries pull out of our investments and don't make tax payers bail us out, we're "on the verge of a meltdown" says Bush.

On a side note, msnbc, fox, and all other news agencies are showing people saying to restrict ceo salaries to that of president, etc... Isn't this communism? How can you run a 500 Billion Dollar company and make $200,000? Who would want that responsibility? Then have everyone after their head if it fails?

Has Communism slowly taken over America, who is dictating polcy when we're bailing out foreigners? We are making our workers pay?

Discuss...

ITS not communism...

ITS is more indicative of FASCISM

There is a very old argument about who controlled whom in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany at various points in the timeline of power. It is agreed that the army, the wealthy, and the big corporations ended up with much more say in decision making than other elements of the corporative state[24][25][26]. There was a power struggle between the fascist parties/leaders and the army, wealthy, and big corporations. It waxed and waned as to who had more power at any given time. Scholars have used the term "Mussolini's corporate state" in many different ways[27].
Franklin D. Roosevelt in an April 29, 1938 message to Congress warned that the growth of private power could lead to fascism:[b/]
The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism—ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.[28][29][30]

I just wanted to clarify... If the bailout was for the home owners and citizens the SOCIALIST term would be more fitting.

DO not be mistaken... this is unchecked CORPORTATISM - SON of far right FASICM.
A view that puts company before individual is what got us here.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by mental modulator]

Good thread!

The basic problem, that of personal greed and short-term thinking, cannot be solved by government decree. Absolutely, the government, if we are to assume the US as a Representative Republic, should not be in the business of setting salaries for private enterprise.

What needs to evolve is a culture that derides such greedy behavior. Currently, when somebody successfully "games the system", they are often considered some kind of hero by some, which encourages that behavior.

What we need to do is evolve our culture so that such people are scorned, publicly and frequently. We need to make it so anyone behaving that way is embarrassed. We need to make it so this kind of thing is unthinkable.

Because as long as the culture values such behavior, no law, and no number of laws, will ever change it. No matter how many, or complex the laws, somebody will find a loophole. Because it is valued behavior.

I don't think what is happening here is really Communism, more like a plutocracy.

I don't exactly like the idea of the government taking 17% of my paycheck to pay some CEO of some company that I'll never have anything to do with though.
The restriction part was to keep from the CEOs making millions from this. Aka corruption that caused this whole mess.

About the only thing the individual can do is vent and refuse to pay taxs, each with its own outcome.

So let me get this straight OP.

Its ok for these corrupt ceo's to run their company in the ground, expect the government to come bail them out by having the Taxpayer pay the bad debt All the while these same corrupt ceo's lobbied congress to change the rules to limit and or eliminate the governments oversight and regulations just so they could make a few million dollars?

So in some peoples reality it is ok for the ceos to walk scott free with full salaries and multimillion dollar bonuses and not have to be accountable for their actions by forfeiting their bonuses which is what is being proposed right now by congress if these companies seek a bailout from the government.

I don't know about you but if i can't make my house payment every month the bank has the right to foreclose on my loan and take my house to recover their losses. in your reasoning i should get a huge bonus for failling to pay my house payment.

Its not communism it is congress stepping in to protect the taxpayers for once and dishing out a little justice on the side.

The only problem i would have with this is if cogress doesn't put the money they seize from these corrupt clowns back in the pot to lessen the burden on the taxpayers

[edit on 9/22/2008 by Mercenary2007]

[edit on 9/22/2008 by Mercenary2007]

reply to post by mental modulator


Communism and Fascism are really seldom different.. a different way to come about the same conclusion.

Fascism is typically defined as war-ready nationalism with extremism driving the root core of the party, Corporate Fascism involves corporations.. also extreme social conservatism is typically a big factor for rallying masses..

Republicans for instance, are Liberals when it comes to governments, and Social conservatives when it comes to "morals" .. this makes them not Conservative in nature (like say a Constitutionalists or Libertarian) but rather a Fascist, which uses Corporate power, massive government, and the hype of extreme religious ideologies and social conservative beliefs to bring about support.

Communist Are typically war-ready and are social liberals, as well as liberal in terms of Government. Instead of forming bonds through religion and nationality, secularism and "common-ness" .. equality, a graying of the people which amongst people is used to bridge a feverish support for a massive centralized government which then culminates into exactly what the Fascist are..

Are we in a depression? No. Not yet, not even by "real number" terms.. however we sit on the brink on the most severe and potentially catastrophic event in American history.. times not seen since the Great depression. It's called a Great Depression for it's severity, however, a Depression is a long standing Recession, and has nothing to do with actual severity as it does with length of time passed with negative GDP growth.

Then again, in the history of Humanity, no two economic cataclysms have been exactly alike, and always after it occurs needs a new tale on how it happened, how to define and so forth..

Uncertain times never before seen as the world has never been like it is today. Uncertain actions will bring about unknown results, as we prepare to pass the largest ever bail out in human history, the economist around the globe know.. it only highlights the magnitude of our situation, it does nothing to help it, it delays the inevitable, and is a silent warning to those who can read between the lines... hell is coming for us. Don't let the MSM tell you it's a normal procedure, this is new to us, to everyone, and it's so much bigger then they want you to know...

Sometimes Communism is a good thing. Lots of spoons and limited ice cream, the inequalities can be fun. Seriously, never before has the tax payer been liable for all of this garbage. We will pay this off in taxes (both sides of the pond) and Communists will not succeed in their (very student union) aim of taking over the world, get us into barter and force women to give up their children to the state (maybe that's a little Stalinesque). Both sides of the pond, our governments have bailed out........

reply to post by Mercenary2007


No, I don't think you should be able to run anything into the ground and get payed bonuses, but where were the share holders? Why did it have to go all the way to a government bail out??? I am just saying limiting salaries on any job in america is borderline communism, kind of like biden and obama saying we need rich to pay more taxes, might as well lower their salary and force them to lower prices on their businesses.

Another 400 on the dow today... so are we in the depression... is the ship sinking with a huge whole plugged up temporarily by a 1 trillion dollar bail out? Seems like we are doing whatever we can tp stay afloat and having China and others give us more stuff to plug the whole cuz we are fresh out!

ps - from the research i did best number i could find is about 55 trillion total "dollars" in the world total to account for everything. does that make the 12 trillion deficit and 1 trillion payout seem bigger to anyone?

Yes we already are in a depression. and a 1 trillion dollar bailout is way low. This bail out is going to easily cost over 5 trillion. together freddie and fannie hold 5.3 trillion in mortgage assets. and that's only 50% of all mortgages in the U.S.

I don't think the government should limit the salaries of execs. if they earn the amount of their salary the deserve it.

But if they run their company into the ground after lobbing congress to change the rules that they had to play by and tell congress you can trust us to regulate ourselves then that same company comes running back to the government begging to be helped out, then by all means the government should take away these ceo's golden parachutes and take away their bonuses Hell if it was up to me i'd have the government seize all there assets and use that to help pay for these bankrupt companies.

Also remember these same companies that are failling also lobbied congress to change the bankruptcy rules for us! This cycle of corruption is going to continue until either the government and or the tax payers say enough is enough and hold these corrupt S.O.Bs accountable for their business practices!

To be honest with you i think the government should completely refuse to bail these companies out let the economy crash wipe out all the debt and start over and move away from the fed reserve system and debt monetary systems and quit rewarding these corrupt bankers!

I'd much rather have the crash now and get it over with then wait a month or 2 and it be worse than it already is and take longer to get thru

Ya fair enough, i rather give the ceos solid lead parachutes (the kind that fall to the ground faster) ...

does this board really contain people with enough knowledge to give insight on these kind of questions? if so, where are you? if not, eveyrone here is doomed, that's for sure...



reply to post by Mercenary2007

I wouldn't speak too poorly of communist, with out them we wouldn't be in business anymore. China basically owns our asses right now.

Anyway we need such a thing possibly to restore order. If the government had held these companies accountable in the first place and given them more restrictions despite the whining from those crying "bigger government" we would have avoided this mess in the first place. We didn't though and now we are stuck bailing them out or it will harshly affect all of us even more.

It's almost as if the big guys up stairs wanted this to happen, I can't imagine how stupid greed and political loyalties have turned them.

To be honest no one knows exactly what is going to happen. There really isn't one stand out member that has the knowledge to really answer these questions. even the wall street experts don't know.

However we here at ATS are good at getting all the info so everyone can see the big picture. and right now we are in that process of getting the info and connecting the dots.

The changes that finally lifted the lid on the regulations took place in 1992 with the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. But you could trace the dots all the way back to Carter if you dig deep enough

But you could trace the dots all the way back to Carter if you dig deep enough

Dig even deeper and it goes back to LBJ's administration.

reply to post by inthesticks


i'm sure you could trace it back even further than LBJ.

but i stopped with the president that was in office when i was born. It was already to bleak for my tastes just getting to Carter

Originally posted by mental modulator

Originally posted by icu20
How can you run a 500 Billion Dollar company and make $200,000? Who would want that responsibility? Then have everyone after their head if it fails?

They can kiss my ball. if they cant function at 200,000 in their accounts then they REALLY dont need to be incharge of 500,000,000 worth of financials. i exists perfectly happy at 1% of their yearly salary and have no problems paying my bills. of course i did graduate high school, so its doubtful others can follow my lead.

the thing that makes me SO MAD is the fact that execs get golden parachute packages ALL THE TIME. Sometimes, this money is taken from MONIES COLLECTED FROM U.S CITIZENS. if an exec does a good job, like any worker, then they should get a reward as voted on by shareholders.

well as a defacto shareholder of these worthless companies as payed for by my EXPENSIVE taxes, i vote they dont get a cent, because they were to busy playing tetris and posting on ATS to see their companies dissolving like sand escaping their greedy talons.