Republican 911 "Tribute" Video is INNAPROPTIATE

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

Things that do not definitively prove that our government was involved

1. Assumptions and/or theories

How about deductions? Holmesian deductions? Are they ok or taboo, too?

2. Lack of Evidence

Ah, lack of evidence like the 100 or so videos (including those from private sector cameras that were martial-law-like rounded up in the brief hours after the attack) that won't be released by the FBI, although there is no rational reason? That lack of evidence cannot be used to calculate the involvement of our government?

3. And this last one is specific, as you cited it.. the patriot act. I agree that it was obviously written for quite some time and YES!! Anyone who knows what I stand for KNOWS that I do not agree with its being implemented.. but this does NOT prove that 9/11 was an inside job. It just does not!

Hmmm. The way I deduce this evidence, it does. Why waste money and time spending years putting such a document together, in such detail and so prepared to eviscerate the Bill of Rights as well as the Constitution, with NO oversight by the people? I mean, if you aren't even sure you need it, and (in the pre-9/11 era) there was a perception of only a very small probability that we would be attacked on our soil - at least that was the prevailing view.

Or is deduction out? Well, I'll know when you answer and we can keep or discard this deduction based on whether deductions are allowed by you.

Obviously there are corrupt people in our government and obviously there are corrupt things that are being implemented into our daily lives.. but this does not mean that all are corrupt and it certainly doesn't mean there are not corrupt GROUPS of ppl in other societies that have an agenda of some sort with the western world in general.

Sure. All of this is correct. But if there are corrupt segments - as you say here - why is it a difficult step to entertain the idea that a corrupt segment set out to take over the presidency, appoint people to the right positions, use family members in the right businesses, and then pull off 9/11? I mean, especially when you have Hitler's example of how the public can be manipulated with a Reichstag? And all the more especially when you know that Granddad Bush was a Nazi supporter? And lots of influence came in here with Project Paperclip?

Given all this I deduce that it is a good probability, even. But I guess this will have to be thrown out if deduction is not allowed.

I still am not subscribing completely and wholly either way on the 9/11 stories. I am actually being shown both sides by someone who has been on both sides of the fence and thus far, the evidence that is cited by the truthers (I don't understand this label) has been effectively debunked.

Great! Show it to us. Like I said, the main points are not debunked to my knowledge. Can you debunk GW & VP refusing to testify under oath? Demanding to be interviewed together? What can you debunk?

But you have made several assumptions just in your replies to me on this thread and therefore it shows that you are willing to jump to conclusions simply based on the distorted one sided view you hold to.

For a THIRD time, please, list the specifics of these "assumptions" I am making.

I can't do that. I want to see what is actually going on in this world and that means not subscribing to anything until I have facts that show that I can.

So do I, but I also make deductions. I can't just wait for every scrap of evidence to fill the puzzle in completely. When I have 75% I can usually tell what the whole of the puzzle is a picture of. I can't sit here saying, Yup. There's the face of an elephant, three of the four legs of the elephant, and most of the body, but until I see that rear end and tail, there is no way I will know that this is a picture of an elephant, really.

And the facts out there, when compiled, create a near perfect image of a NeocoNazi elephant.

I have had to admit I was wrong numerous times on this board and have done so because I am not looking to make everything fit into my view of the world. I am rather looking to get my view in line with what is actually THE truth.

Heh. Me too. I am actually quite dispassionate about my world view. Interesting thing... I really didn't want 9/11 to be anything but the OCT (Official Conspiracy Theory) when it first happened, yet the speed at which Bin Laden was not only suggested, but accused, tried and convicted in the MSM all on the same day suggested differently.

I still clung to the OCT, assuring myself that no (virtually) immediate move would be made to use this to rob us of the rights as set forth in the founding documents - which I knew would be the logical next step if we planned and executed it. Why else would we bother if not for that goal?

So I spent the next few weeks hoping that I would not see any such suggestions come down the pike.

What *I* was expecting was a speech by Bush, rallies to write up the documents NOW. Move forward. Git 'er done, and all that. So I got a bit complacent at the end of the first month, thinking maybe, just maybe, all that media trial was a fluke. Nothing really was brought up.

I never anticipated just how prepared they were, but in retrospect I should not have been surprised when the "Patriot" Act, all well honed, with EXACTLY what I expected to topple receiving its toppling orders, landed in Congress with all this "rush, rush, don't read, just sign! NOW" creppola.

And on that day I cried.

I wept for the love and the principles, the freedom and the honor, that died that day, joining in death all those who died to keep those ideals alive.

This one truth I know. The events of 9/11 occurred. People died in horrific ways. This is all relevent to the choices that we are now facing. This is something that we should remember despite who wants us to remember and for whatever their purpose is.

Fine. Watch youtube memorials. Visit memorial sites. Remember whenever and however you want. But don't get behind the misuse, to put more demons into office using those poor dead people like so many mules in a train.

See, I am not of a herd mentality. I can view this video and not be swayed by fear and/or anger toward or against anyone, but have my own solemn rememberance for the ppl that died on our soil that day and reflect on how far I have personally come since it occurred.... my own thoughts and my own experience.

You are welcome to take from it what you will in that respect, but most (well, duh) people ARE of that mentality and to say, I can take only these things I want to and discard the rest, so others who see issues have a personal problem, is absurd. It is very socially irresponsible to have a piece like that, know it is being used on most as a manipulation tool, and just because it doesn't work on you, not speak out against it for the edification of those herd mentality most.

It is not about politics to me and therefore, like I said, it could have been obama and/or ron paul's video and still, my thoughts would have been the same.

But it IS about politics to those who made it. Those who made it used the emotional leverage of 9/11 to inject fear-mongering, to suggest the Republican party candidate was the only solution, to rile the public once more in a very specific direction (against muslim "extremists"). That was its whole purpose.

And I too can take what little there was of true tribute to the 9/11 victims and immerse myself in that if I have a need, but that is irrelevant to the fact that this emotional crow-bar is being used to wedge political views into the herd of..heh. What can I use here, since you find the right term to mean I have some kind of herd mentality? Well... You know what I mean.

[edit on 9/6/2008 by Amaterasu]

reply to post by Jemison
It's pathetic how the video said we remember the Iranians holding the US embassy hostage, but we forget the Iran/Contra disgrace and how those hostages were released the very day Reagan was inaugurated. It says we remember Osama Bin Laden but we forget our own CIA armed him. It says a lot about what the GOP want us to remember but there is a lot, lot, lot more the GOP want us to forget about their deep involvement and support for our enemies. The hypocrisy is absolutely staggering. If people really could use their own memories they would never get away with it.

For as much as I can be concerned, all I see here above is basically a fight between people...

I don't know if Amaterasu or justamomma are just understanding how absolutely blinded are the people in that meeting? (and that, whichever is the truth about your own little personal fight here above...)

The man named McCain and his fidel follower Palin are very dangerous people. They are not doing politics. They are hammering debilitating nationalist and pseudo-patriotic messages into the uneducated people. And the pseudo-educated are blinded enough too.

I tell you something people... Here in Europe we have maybe very different views on the world. I am simply not trying to say that America=wrong and Europe=good, that would be far too manichean. However, there is an amazing quantity of manipulation in your media, and the average level of education makes it easy for them to "program" the people into what they want.

Repeat, over and over, that the muslims have hijacked those planes, and the average american will support the war against "terrorism". Bingo!

Repeat, over and over, that Bin Laden is their boss, and the average american will support the endless Vietnam... huh... Afghanistan operation to find that bearded evil. (while, who knows, he may be enjoying a luxury suite in a nice hotel somewhere, paid by CIA credit cards)

Repeat, over and over, that the other guy running against you in this presidential election is not a good patriot, and the blind sheep will all sing together...

Come on! I could be the next president. I could really. Why? Because I have no records in the US, and because I know what to tell the people. You doubt it? Well, OK, I caricature it, but look for yourself. What is a political campaign in your country? A series of attack against the other. An investigation to find their past mistakes... "Oh! Bad boy!! He smoked a joint when he was 16!! He cannot be a good president! Vote for me instead!"

Open your eyes and stop looking at the stupid television news. Realise that there is something else. Whoever holds the truth, that video in topic is shocking. The public is blinded, driven. The ones presenting that "tribute" know what they do. That "tribute" is not one.

When we hold a tribute to the deaths of war or anything else in my country, we don't do it by blaming the responsible people. Open your eyes!

If you want a dog to follow you, give him a bone...

Originally posted by SpookyVince
For as much as I can be concerned, all I see here above is basically a fight between people...

I don't know if Amaterasu or justamomma are just understanding how absolutely blinded are the people in that meeting? (and that, whichever is the truth about your own little personal fight here above...)

First, I am well aware of the zombie-like or elitist status of the people at that convention. It is not for them that I write this.

Second, there are many "sheeple" who might watch that piece (it was widely and publicly shown; it was not produced just for those few sitting in that arena) that are ripe for its manipulation to be effective. It is for them I write.

Third, you make it sound as if momma and I have some personal issues. What an absurd thought here on a public forum. We are individuals discussing the appropriateness of this piece in public. It has nothing to do with personal issues whatsoever.

In fact, I am thankful to have one such as momma to bounce the views others might come up with to justify their lack of indignation and repugnance over the idea of using those innocent dead to further manipulate us, so that, in public, the true motivations of those behind this work can be clarified for the many.

The man named McCain and his fidel follower Palin are very dangerous people. They are not doing politics. They are hammering debilitating nationalist and pseudo-patriotic messages into the uneducated people. And the pseudo-educated are blinded enough too.

Well, you can say THAT again! I am fully aware that these are a dangerous group, especially given that they will stoop to using the innocent dead so disgracefully, yet managing to make it look "good" so that people like momma can justify not being outraged.

I tell you something people... Here in Europe we have maybe very different views on the world. I am simply not trying to say that America=wrong and Europe=good, that would be far too manichean. However, there is an amazing quantity of manipulation in your media, and the average level of education makes it easy for them to "program" the people into what they want.

I am SOOO with you on this. Europe has her own issues, and I don't think she is as free as she thinks (many countries are Codex (Alimentarius) compliant - resulting in paying pharmaceutical companies outlandish prices for vitamins, for example), but then, NONE of the world is free of this Evil's influence. The US, though, is Prime Target, likely as "revenge" for taking out the Third Reich.

Repeat, over and over, that the muslims have hijacked those planes, and the average american will support the war against "terrorism". Bingo!

Y'betchy. More and more of us are waking up, though. As was mentioned somewhere, 1 of 10 of us can see that our own government planned and executed 9/11.

Repeat, over and over, that Bin Laden is their boss, and the average american will support the endless Vietnam... huh... Afghanistan operation to find that bearded evil. (while, who knows, he may be enjoying a luxury suite in a nice hotel somewhere, paid by CIA credit cards)

Very good "slip," that. Vietnam was about the heroin. Afghanistan was about the heroin (and oil, too). Yes, I think he knew he was the scapegoat. Bush and Buddy-Buddy Daddy Bin Laden probably had long discussions with Osamie about the plan.

Repeat, over and over, that the other guy running against you in this presidential election is not a good patriot, and the blind sheep will all sing together...

Ah, but in the case of the Republicans vs. Democrats, it's really all the same two-headed counterfeit coin that is thrust upon us, the only purchase it can make being NWO. Besides. They have Diebold to choose the president.

The "elections" are just bread and circuses (minus the bread).

Open your eyes and stop looking at the stupid television news. Realise that there is something else. Whoever holds the truth, that video in topic is shocking. The public is blinded, driven. The ones presenting that "tribute" know what they do. That "tribute" is not one.

Many of us are doing just this.

When we hold a tribute to the deaths of war or anything else in my country, we don't do it by blaming the responsible people. Open your eyes!

Oh, VERY well stated. Yes. You show the faces of the dead, play sad music, maybe say something about them... You don't start out by showing incidents of violence and make (dubious?) connections to the incident that killed them.

reply to post by Amaterasu


I am not trying to be rude, but I will not be bothering to read your response to me. I am out of this "debate" that I really never meant to be in concerning the topic of the thread.

Truthers have used the tragic events of 9/11 to their advantage, making money on twisted facts and assumptions and so I suppose I found it ironic that one would not be upset about that, but be upset when a candidate may be using the events to get into office. At least the latter holds more relevence than the former.

Anyway, one of the tragic (or great, depending on interpretation of freedom) things about this country is that ppl are free to exploit and use tragic events.. whether for profit and/or to gain positions. I just choose not to allow the bad intents of others play on my emotions by turning solemn rememberance into fear and/or anger.

Have a good one!


[edit on 7-9-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

I am not trying to be rude, but I will not be bothering to read your response to me.

[shrug] Your life.

But I will suspect that it has to do with your inability to back your accusations of me, especially with regard to my "lack" of facts, my making "assumptions," and your inability also to provide these "debunking facts" you have claimed to have.

I mean...why wouldn't I suspect that?

[edit on 9/7/2008 by Amaterasu]

reply to post by setfree


As a Firefighter that lost 343 brothers that day I say it IS inappropriate! They have no right to show those of the Fire service and mention bravery at the same time. Rudy Guilliani killed them with bad radios because he got a kickback.

Here is what the Firefighters union has to say about the creep Rudy.


Your RNC is full of lying bastards.

he means its not appropriate for anyone to remember and they want you to forget 9-11 happend because its bad for their policy and their campaigns.

They want everyone to forget the attack and pretend it never happened and that we are scarring everyone with it.

If people forget then they can elect the left like oberman's side who hate war and cant keep the country safe.

They also dont want you to understand that future attacks were prevented and all that was accomplished to keep us safe and the concequences of going week and pacifist diplomatic again.

That guy is very disguesting!!!

Everyone please watch the video I posted it was made by the International Association of Firefighters. It tells of the disgrace of the creep Rudy all you Right wing fanatics cheered at the RNC.

reply to post by LoneGunMan


Awesome vid, LGM. Just awesome.

He (Rudy) knew the attacks were coming. He is a part of the NeocoNazis that are taking over our country now.

And just like him, the RNC is using the deceased to try and situate themselves better. Vile, wicked and disgusting, these NeocoNazis.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan


Here is what the Firefighters union has to say about the creep Rudy.

Your RNC is full of lying bastards.

Rudy said to the 9|11 commission that: "what I call they're willingness to stand they're ground" is a lie to cover his rear.

We are taught in the academy that no matter what you feel is right when the evacuation order is given drop everything and get out. The reason for this is most times you may have to regroup and try a different tactic. Dead Firefighters cannot help anyone and that is stressed throughout your time in the academy. We always listen to officers because our Adrenalin pumps to hard sometimes to make a reasoned decision that is why officers never go inside a working fire so they do not have the raw fear that facing being burned to death produces and diminishes your ability to make a proper decision.

He killed them, he then buried them in a landfill after making sure the gold was secured because that was the ONLY reason he had the FDNY search the ruble, and is now using that day for his personal gain. What kind of person does something like that? What kind of person supports the GOP that KNOWS this and still lets this tragedy get used for gain?

Both sides suck but the GOP is fricking evil. Screw them and screw you cheering creeps. If you ever experience the worst day of your life and look up to see that person with the look of desperation and fear in his eyes through his breathing apparatus but is helping you anyway, knowing when he goes its not from smoke, but cooking in his turnouts nice and slow I hope you remember the 11th of September and the way you cheered the GOP at the RNC.


Edit to add: Thank you setfree for making us aware of what the GOP is doing with the memory of that horrible day.



[edit on 8-9-2008 by LoneGunMan]

Originally posted by Chucktah

Originally posted by truthquest

Originally posted by nyk537
reply to post by setfree

 

The "jury is only out" for the few remaining conspiracy nuts out there who hold onto the belief that somehow "we" are responsible for what happened on 9/11.

I guess in all these years after 9/11 you've forgotten about all the evidence. Also you've forgotten that 1 in 10 Americans (and a lot higher percent overseas) believe the US government is responsible.

The conspiracy nuts believe that 9/11 was carried out by a conspiracy of 19 cavemen armed with box-cutters. The rest of us are conspiracy non-nuts who have looked at the evidence and believe they had help from western government.

[edit on 6-9-2008 by truthquest]

And how is saying that "1 in 10 Americans believe the US government is responsible," not propaganda. You and everyone on ATS that accuse the US government of carrying out 9-11 are spitting out propaganda!

"Propaganda: a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense presents information in order to influence its audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the cognitive narrative of the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda."

Whether or not the showing of this video was in good taste or not means nothing. The fact of the matter is that they were trying to portray the danger that very much still exist for this country, and that the best candidate to deal with this threat is John McCain. After all, that is what an election is all about. To show that your candidate it the best fit for the job.

You are totally right. Pointing out how many people believe 9/11 was not [fully] planned out by Arabs is only good for propaganda value. That is why I'm not the one who raised the point. It was official story supporter setfree who raised the point, and I had to correct the figure "few" because its actually "1 in 10 Americans" rather than "few conspiracy nuts". If I was concerned with propaganda I'd use the much higher surveys finding more people who don't buy into the official story. I'd also point out the overseas figures which are much higher, as they have a more objective viewpoint of the situation.

You are also right about them having the correct solution. The end of the clip says "we won't let it happen ever again". They let it happen the first time (on purpose) and all they have to do is not let it happen again. I hardly see how McCain has to be in office to accomplish that.

However, where it comes to the idea that McCain can better handle the terrorist threat, you could not be more wrong. McCain miserably fails to understand why terrorists hate us in the first place, so how could he ever hope to have a solution? Obama, as much as I hate him (though slightly less than most politicians), he does understand the terrorist threat. So of course Obama can handle terrorism a lot better than McCain.