Debunking Revelation

I stumbled across a fantastic sermon by Rev. Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.D. This man preaches Revelation in a revolutionary way!

I think a credible and compelling case can be made for an ancient political figure as the Beast of Revelation. I believe the Beast was none other than Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus. Perhaps you know him better by his adoptive name: Nero Claudius Caesar. Let us consider the case for such an identity.

View the whole document here


Disclaimer: I'm not christian, but I used to be as outlined. I find it fantastic that people are coming to their senses, even Christians. I know this has been talked about before on ATS, but that was a while back now, and I thought it would be a good topic to bring back into the board circulation.

The fact that made up my mind is that the evil one goes by the name/title 666 (six hundred and sixty six) or 616 (six hundred and sixteen) which both are the numerical values of the letters of Nero Caesar's name summed up. The different spelling produced two diff values: 616 & 666.

To me there is no mistaking the logic and clarity of this conclusion.

A few problems with this one. (plagiarized)

WAS NERO THE ANTICHRIST?
Allot of people today are taught that Nero was The Biblical Antichrist and that revelation has already happened. Is this true? Well let's compare what Antichrist will do vs what Nero did.

1) Nero did not force The Roman Empire to worship Satan (Lucifer)
as the god of this world ( as Antichrist will = Rev:13)

2) Nero did not force all of Rome to receive the mark (of Satan) upon their right hand & foreheads or they cannot buy or sell (as Antichrist will =Rev:13).

3) An Asteroid did not smash The Ocean during the rule of Nero
as it will during the rule of Antichrist. (Rev:8:8).

4) Nero did not trigger a war against 200,000,000 soldiers as Antichrist will do (Rev:9:16). There was not even 200 million people in the world when Nero was in power.

5) Nero did not invade The Temple in Jerusalem, declare himself as god and force Israel to worship him as Antichrist will do (Rev:13/dan:9:25).

6) Nero did not receive a Mortal Wound to his head and be miraculously raised from the dead as Antichrist will do (Rev:13).

7) Nero did not make a seven year peace treaty with Israel and break this treaty after 3.5 years. (Dan:9:25/Rev:13).

8). Nero did not lead a global persecution against Christianity for 1260 days (as Antichrist will =Rev:13:7). Nero's war against Christianity was limited to Rome itself.

9). Nero did not slander & blasphemy the God of Israel (YHWH) for
1260 days as Antichrist will (Rev:13).

10. Nero did not gather the armies of the world (outside of Jerusalem)to wage war against JESUS AT HIS RETURN as Antichrist will do at The Battle of Armageddon. (Rev:19).

reply to post by infolurker



Now considering that the book was written by an old man living in a cave hiding from the Romans, its not at all unreasonable to think that he added a lot of fluff to his perceptions. Of course Nero was evil enough from his perspective that Nero may have well been making the roman people worship him. Now Nero did receive a near death blow in an assassination atempt and came back to health. Also the beast had seven heads, 5 dead (there had been 5 caesors come and go) 1 up (Nero) and 1 to come (next caesor)

Now prehaps before you decied to overlook how well Nero and his activities fits Revelation, ask your self "Do I want revelation to come true in my future? Do I want to see all these atrocities come about?"

Most Christian's hold this belief because they have a deep seeded desire to see non-believers die/disappear/be left behind. This desire is a product of Christianity so its not supprising.

[edit on 8/31/2008 by Good Wolf]

I am supprised that when people read John's words "these things are imminent" they think it's happening now. WTF?! If it was imminent 1900 years ago, why do you think its happening now?!

"Soon to come/imminent/upon us" and words to that affect are replete through Revelation. Even Jesus said "There is some of you who will still be standing when I return." How many deciples are still alive I wonder?


THINK! Occam's Razor

[edit on 8/31/2008 by Good Wolf]

Originally posted by Good Wolf
I am supprised that when people read John's words "these things are imminent" they think it's happening now. WTF?! If it was imminent 1900 years ago, why do you think its happening now?!

for that answer, you need to look at the prophet daniel.

"Soon to come/imminent/upon us" and words to that affect are replete through Revelation. Even Jesus said "There is some of you who will still be standing when I return." How many deciples are still alive I wonder?

jesus also said himself that an apostasy had to settle in first. (see wheat and the weeds)

reply to post by miriam0566


That doesn't exactly clear up the fact that people kept saying these things are about to happen real soon.

It's been 19 centuries! How many more centuries will it take before people consider the reality that they may have missed the whole show? Will people still be saying "We are in the end times" in the year 12008, ten thousand years from now?


OCCAM'S RAZOR

[edit on 9/1/2008 by Good Wolf]

Well if you focus on the image you are never going to understand what the real revelation is. I can debunk many things Christians say about image, but the philosophy is the real deal/truth.

When you look at the philosophy you can see it being carried out over and over, with the images always changing. Like the mark of the beat, considered to be many things in image always fitting the time. Because at heart it's a philosophy which keeps growing and growing. It was the social security number, then it was bar codes, then it was ID cards and RFID chips.

When it talks about the mark of the beast, the image are those things. The philosophy is economic slavery.

And it could easily happen over and over. Probably will until people learn the lesson and don't allow it. Because the image/symbols are the important thing, it's the philosophy behind it. People who focus on the image are easily fooled, those who look at the philosophy are not.

The bible even says there will be people who hide behind the bible. They will claim to be Christians or Jews when they are not. They are only able to hide behind the image. They can not hide the philosophy they use when making their choices.

So it does not surprise me that others in the past have also carried out the philosophy. However, I do believe revelations is talking about the philosophy being carried out world wide, and it being carried out all at once.

But how was it ever possible for every man on earth to view the anti-christ at the same time? That is not possible until we have TV's in all households. So many of the things just simply aren't possible without advanced technology not available at the time.

While many use the astrological parts of the bible as a way of debunking, for me it actually brought some sense to it. When you see Jesus as being from Picses, and going into Aquarius etc, that makes sense to me. So basically the "end times" is the time when we leave Pisces and enter Aquarius.

Behind everything that happens, there are philosophies being followed. Jesus taught a philosophy. And the people who worship his image are those who are blind. True believers follow his philosophy/path. And the first step to following that philosophy is to understand it. Which is something you have to do for yourself. Rather than reading the bible and focusing on what this person did with that person, look deeper into the actions and what mode of thinking people are in. When you understand the philosophies, a whole new world and understanding will open up to you.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
That doesn't exactly clear up the fact that people kept saying these things are about to happen real soon.

It's been 19 centuries! How many more centuries will it take before people consider the reality that they may have missed the whole show? Will people still be saying "We are in the end times" in the year 12008, ten thousand years from now?

i understand what you are saying, but jesus was very clear about certain things happening first.

the reason alot belief today we are in the end times (rightfully in my opinion) is because of alot of those things have happened.

the language is there to keep christians alert and awake.

jesus told the rich man to sell all his belongings and join him. considering that jesus knew this man would grow old and die, of what benefit is it to him to say that?

if person knows that the end will not come in his lifetime, does this mean that he should settle in and live a materialistic lifestyle contray to what jesus taught?

you shouldnt serve god just because the end is coming.

besides, its all relative, if to god, a day is like a thousand years, then he;s only waited about 2 days after the death of his son

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by miriam0566

 

That doesn't exactly clear up the fact that people kept saying these things are about to happen real soon.

It's been 19 centuries! How many more centuries will it take before people consider the reality that they may have missed the whole show? Will people still be saying "We are in the end times" in the year 12008, ten thousand years from now?


OCCAM'S RAZOR

[edit on 9/1/2008 by Good Wolf]

At the end of the age of Pisces. 2012. But I do not expect it to be the end of the world, nor do I expect some huge overnight change anymore than the change from Aries to Pisces.

It could also be 2150ish I think. I honestly don't know exactly when we leave the age of Pisces and enter Aquarius(the water bearer). If each age is exactly the same length, then I would lean towards 2150. If you use the galactic center stuff, then it's 2012. I personally lean towards the 2012, probably because I'm biased more towards that date because it's soon, but also because it makes more sense that the ages would be varied in length like months are. The constellations are all different sizes etc.

Also, I look at the constellations and ages more as a calendar where the earth is the hand. Where the calendar is available to all and more solid than being etched in stone.

Don't really know though, just my guess from all the studying I have done. Hard to tell fact from fiction many times, which is why I look at the philosophy so much more. If nothing happens won't matter to me. If Jesus gets proven to be the worlds biggest hoax, won't matter to me. I'll still be a believer in the philosophy. Afterall, if Jesus is the truth then I find the most truth in philosophy.

Well the great year is 2150 years and the start of pices was 0 CE (which is linked to JCs birth) so that would make the dawn of Aquarius 2150 CE.

To twist the conspirators a bit, there is a youtube vide out there of Bush announcing the implants for alien workers. The date was 06/06/06. And man did the christian world become chaotic. To me the instilled predisposition of christians and even non christians towards the idea of Armageddon is produced and suppored by the elite to keep the religious in check. The religious, when determined, are an incredibly powerful so they need to be kept under control.

[edit on 9/1/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Good Wolf


What is your source for the great year? I'd be interested in that. As you pointed out, that would support the 2150 date.

The mayan calander and other things about 2012 also gave me bias for that date.

But I really don't worry bout that stuff too much. I do find it to be a pretty interesting topic though.

I gotta disagree about the religious part. I know many people are kept in check, or more accurate - outright manipulated by the bible. The entire christian establishment religion is based on the death of christ on this earth and worship the tool used to murder him.

Why would god send his only child to earth - just to die? To was away our sins? Because god couldn't just do that on his own without making his son suffer? I can't believe people actually fall for that bit.

IMO, it's more like he sent his only son to earth to show mankind how god would act on earth and how we should treat each other. And Jesus showed that it was better to die than to fight back and become the evil himself. By showing man how to act, those who believe in him and follow his path are the ones acting as they should be.

But those people who worship the image and push the "died on the cross for your sins" bit are the same people who manipulate others. It's the same kind of people who vote for GWB "because he's christian", despite him being someone who wars with people. And how we got things like the crusade.

And it has been well established the catholic church is the 1st beast of revelations, and what are all these other christian religions based off? The catholic bible.

Eternal hell and god loves you? How ridiculous. I have kids, I punish my kids so that they will learn. Eternal hell is like spanking your kids and never stopping. You don't do that to someone you love. Etc.

The dogma's and such only exist with those who worship the image, not to those who understand the philosophy and try to walk the path.

That is the manipulation. And when it comes to that type of religion, I'll agree with you. But that is not the true religion/teachings of Jesus.

Originally posted by badmedia
What is your source for the great year? I'd be interested in that. As you pointed out, that would support the 2150 date.

Well here is the wikipedia page on it. It says a compLE--AHH!!! I just spilt my coffee! damit all!
a complete cycle is 25,765 years. Devide that by 12 (constelations) and you get 2147.0833 repeater. 2150 rounded up.

But those people who worship the image and push the "died on the cross for your sins" bit are the same people who manipulate others. It's the same kind of people who vote for GWB "because he's christian", despite him being someone who wars with people. And how we got things like the crusade.

bingo

Eternal hell and god loves you? How ridiculous. I have kids, I punish my kids so that they will learn. Eternal hell is like spanking your kids and never stopping. You don't do that to someone you love. Etc.

i think hell is a bit worse than a spanking:p Ill be honest and say that even as a Christian I had a hard time believing there was a hell. Was it god or jesus who said a kingdom divided against itself is doomed to fall. If god id everything, how can there be a hell?

[edit on 9/1/2008 by Good Wolf]

There are many antichrists.

however, Revelation is a prophecy about "THE" antichrist.

In Koine, and even Classical Greek the word "THE" in front signifies a very specific one.

And it's impossible for it to have been Nero. Israel became a complete nation in 1967.

It was impossible to have happened before 1967.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And it's impossible for it to have been Nero. Israel became a complete nation in 1967.

It was impossible to have happened before 1967.

It's not impossible for it to have been nero because its not impossible that the prophesy to be the works of a crazy old man and thus not entirely rooted in reality.

Originally posted by Good Wolf

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And it's impossible for it to have been Nero. Israel became a complete nation in 1967.

It was impossible to have happened before 1967.

It's not impossible for it to have been nero because its not impossible that the prophesy to be the works of a crazy old man and thus not entirely rooted in reality.

LOL!!!!! "crazy old men" aren't 100% accurate with their "predictions", Biblical prophecy is.

Jesus Christ said the generation who sees Israel become a nation will be the generation that sees the end of days.

Not John.

It was impossible before 1967. israel becoming a nation was a prerequisite prophecy.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Good Wolf

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And it's impossible for it to have been Nero. Israel became a complete nation in 1967.

It was impossible to have happened before 1967.

It's not impossible for it to have been nero because its not impossible that the prophesy to be the works of a crazy old man and thus not entirely rooted in reality.

LOL!!!!! "crazy old men" aren't 100% accurate with their "predictions", Biblical prophecy is.

Says who? you? Not quite good enough I'm afraid.

Originally posted by Good Wolf

Well here is the wikipedia page on it. It says a compLE--AHH!!! I just spilt my coffee!

damit all!
a complete cycle is 25,765 years. Devide that by 12 (constelations) and you get 2147.0833 repeater. 2150 rounded up.

Oh, the great year you are referring to is the 26k year one. And that also comes to end on 2012 if you use galactic center, a complete 26k cycle, not just a 2000-2150 year cycle.

That is how i got the possibility of 2150. Dividing that by 12. I'm not sure on it though. The months we have are not all even, and the constellations themselves are all different sizes. It makes more sense to me that they would be uneven. And it makes more sense that would start/stop at galactic center rather than being way off that.

So I lean towards 2012. But as I said before these are just guesses based on information I've picked up. I certainly don't know that as a fact or base my life around it.

Originally posted by badmedia
Oh, the great year you are referring to is the 26k year one. And that also comes to end on 2012 if you use galactic center, a complete 26k cycle, not just a 2000-2150 year cycle.

That is how i got the possibility of 2150. Dividing that by 12. I'm not sure on it though. The months we have are not all even, and the constellations themselves are all different sizes. It makes more sense to me that they would be uneven. And it makes more sense that would start/stop at galactic center rather than being way off that.

So I lean towards 2012. But as I said before these are just guesses based on information I've picked up. I certainly don't know that as a fact or base my life around it.

No the great year is the 12th division, so 12 great years in one full cycle, and it has nothing to do with the months. It also doesn't matter if the constellations where not at all the divisions, the ancients noticed that the solstices were moving as to what the setting(rising?) sun lined up to; they worked out the length of the cycle and divided it by twelve because there were twelve important constellations that are passed in the cycle.

They wouldnt think much of dividing equally-look at the zodiac, its divided equally, and anyway, the ages arn't simply correlated with a single point in the sky but a band that the setting sun would point to for 2147 years at a time- the constellations only need be inside these bands.

You also need to remember that this is the conception of many different ancients' who would have all made it relevant to different places. But I think you onto something, the Mayan 2012 is probably the end of their 26k cycle. Actually that may be the answer to the riddle, people thought that the end of the world was predicted by the stopping of the Mayan calander but it actually would have been the end of one full 26k cycle. Of course the Mayans may have also believed that the cosmos would only exist for one whole cycle and the calander is less of a calander and more of a countdown timer- but obviously the world will continue past this age.

Wow. I could write a book. Mayan Calendar Solved.!

or maybe a new thread.

[edit on 9/1/2008 by Good Wolf]

Jesus says specifically in Revelations to John that some of this is for the PRESENT and some for the FUTURE.

Originally posted by Good WolfNow prehaps before you decied to overlook how well Nero and his activities fits Revelation, ask your self "Do I want revelation to come true in my future? Do I want to see all these atrocities come about?"

Most Christian's hold this belief because they have a deep seeded desire to see non-believers die/disappear/be left behind. This desire is a product of Christianity so its not supprising.

Sorry, but that's crap....

[edit on 1-9-2008 by Shawn B.]

reply to post by Shawn B.


Sure it's crap, in your opinion. That's all I see.