here is my argument for gods existence

This is for athiests who say they don't believe in god because it can't be proved that god exists. I think what athiests should argue against is the truth of religion
and the various other takes on what god actually is. As it is really quite logical that there is a god, a better term would be creator.
First the universe didn't begin with a 'big bang' as science claims, the physical universe may have been started by a big bang, but what caused the big bang?
What caused the things that caused the big bang etc... You could go on forever just as the universe does and still not arive at an answer. Something doesnt come from nothing! Likewise the universe doesn't end, if so what is beyond it?
God is that which has created all things in the first place, as things dont just create themselves from nothing, it defies logic! I'm not saying god is good, or applying any other atributes to god, just stating the obvious, that god is the original creator of all things. it matters not what god actually is, that we will never know.

i think you'll find that atheists believe in a first cause. They just dont believe in GOD as a bearded old man who made the earth in 6 days

Ok, so what caused God??? you said it defies logic that something cannot come from nothing. So what did God come from???

The logic your "argument" uses defies your own statements. I'm not an atheist, but that reasoning doesn't make any sense. You are telling people that if they accept the scientific fact of universal expansion then they are, by default, an atheist and wrong because something doesn't come from nothing while at the same time saying that your god did just that!

[edit on 31-8-2008 by Jay-in-AR]

Yes because only god could come from nothing, thats why god is the 'creator' but I don't believe god did come from nothing, rather that god has allways been, god is enternal, allways has been allways will be.
One way we could imagine the universe and its expansion is like being the breath of god. As god breathes out the universe is created or manifest, as god breathes in, it will be destroyed again. This is a very old philosophical point of veiw that is similar to what modern science is telling us about the universe.
It remains a fact though it is impossible to grasp truly the concept of what god is, we can only say god is infinate.

The big bang is ''the creator'' in a certain sense as well, yet it is not logical that by your logic, God should have been created by something as well then?

Or on the other side,
If God always was, and then decided to breathe out the Universe, would it not be possible for the big bang ''setup'' to have always been, but just not yet ''triggered''?

Also there is the theory of particles ''popping'' into existence, and then having popped into existence in such a configuration that it caused the bigbang.

The popping thing has been observed by scientists, though I'm not certain if it is confirmed as actual ''popping'' from out of nowhere.

I believe they are called Virtual Particles.


edit:
So we cannot grasp the concept of God? But we can say that it is infinite?

[edit on 31/8/08 by -0mega-]

Originally posted by surfer_soul
Yes because only god could come from nothing, thats why god is the 'creator' but I don't believe god did come from nothing, rather that god has allways been, god is enternal, allways has been allways will be.
One way we could imagine the universe and its expansion is like being the breath of god. As god breathes out the universe is created or manifest, as god breathes in, it will be destroyed again. This is a very old philosophical point of veiw that is similar to what modern science is telling us about the universe.
It remains a fact though it is impossible to grasp truly the concept of what god is, we can only say god is infinate.

I give up, smh

Religion and the idea of a "god" is just a crutch for people who simply cannot comprehend there are some questions that just cant be answered.

Such as the topic of death. Does anyone really know what happens when you die? Of course not, but the weak minded need to believe in something such as the idea of "heaven", so that they may enter death without fear.

reply to post by surfer_soul


surfer_soul,
I am happy for you, that you have a perception of reality that works for you. Although I don't exactly agree with your viewpoint, this is irrelevant to me. It only becomes relevant when people attempt to convince/convert/argue me into their belief system.
It matters not what someone believes, only the actions they take based on those beliefs.

Peace

Originally posted by -0mega-
The big bang is ''the creator'' in a certain sense as well, yet it is not logical that by your logic, God should have been created by something as well then?

Or on the other side,
If God always was, and then decided to breathe out the Universe, would it not be possible for the big bang ''setup'' to have always been, but just not yet ''triggered''?

Also there is the theory of particles ''popping'' into existence, and then having popped into existence in such a configuration that it caused the bigbang.

The popping thing has been observed by scientists, though I'm not certain if it is confirmed as actual ''popping'' from out of nowhere.

I believe they are called Virtual Particles.


edit:
So we cannot grasp the concept of God? But we can say that it is infinite?

[edit on 31/8/08 by -0mega-]

We can grasp the concept of god but not grasp what god is, this would have been a better way of putting it. To know god is to be god, and we are not, thats the point I am trying to make.
Yes the big bang set up could be veiwed like a perpetual cycle but im not saying that is the case. But at some point in time acording to science, the universe as we know it was formed. Its my idea that particles don't just pop out of nowhere and nothing and create universes.
If the universe is infinate, which it must be, or whats beyond it? Then so must its creator likewise be infinate.
It woundn't be entirely wrong to say that the universe and everything in it is god. But a better term would be that the universe and everything in it is in some way a manifestation of god.

It is not in the plan, that man shall know everything. But, when you die, you will know more. Much more than now and here on this planet. Simply believe me if you don't know because I know.

Read the reports of people with near-death experiences than you are on the right way.

You really do not die if you die. And God is everywhere in everything and everyone.




[edit on 31-8-2008 by anxiouscat]

[edit on 31-8-2008 by anxiouscat]

The idea of creation is a good theory, it explains everything, but then it leaves us with even more mind boggling questions about the creator. If you consider the paradox (by whomever) "Can God create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?", we see that omnipotence appears to be an impossibility. Omnibenevolence can be thrown out, as we see bad and unjust things happening all the time. Omniscience and omnipresence are also questionable ideas. There is also the issue of eternal existence, which can't be understood through science.

But as you say, either something must have come from nothing, or something just always existed. Both of these statements are impossible for us, but one MUST be true. Therefore, at this point, the most reasonable explanation is that a divine power gave birth to all of existence. It's irrational and impossible, but its all that we have right now. It's not proof of anything, but the simplest notion of creation is the only thing that makes any sense. (Yet it makes no sense at the same time. ) Any responses to questions on creation are just guesses.

reply to post by MrAndy


Great post Mr. Andy!
I really liked your breakdown here:

either something must have come from nothing, or something just always existed. Both of these statements are impossible for us, but one MUST be true.

For me the choice is infinity. Matter/Energy/Space has always existed, and is infinitely dispersed. No beginning, no end.
I feel we, being finite creatures, have an extremely difficult time perceiving or truly comprehending infinity.

Peace

Originally posted by MrAndy
"Can God create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?"

God is in no need to provide proof of his, her, its existence.

Originally posted by MrAndy
Omnibenevolence can be thrown out, as we see bad and unjust things happening all the time.

People have received a free will. You can decide.. for example... against force any time. The way always is there.

Originally posted by MrAndy
Any responses to questions on creation are just guesses.

I have experienced a near-death - very short - but I know how it is to die. And there was some day an angel of god coming to me and I felt so comfortable in this situation, I can't tell. It is the total inner peace.

No guesses I mean.