Lies VS Truth VS Lies VS Truth VS Lies VS BOTH!?!?

It has been said that all real truth is paradoxical in nature.

(This thread was inspired by another thread, "I'm all for fascism", in which the OP made a very good point which was overlooked completely so far).

We look at the way the government is "ushering in a Fascist Regime" and we get angry. We wish death upon those doing this to us. We believe them all to be Luciferian posing as Christian or whatever accepted religion, which may or may not be "true". We believe that these things are wrong, and that by opposing these things, be it with violent opposition or non-violent dissonance/resistance, that we are the "good guys", that we are more righteous than the enemies of our awareness and our freedom. We believe that We are the truth and the Light, and they are the Liars and the Darkness.

Consider these questions. What is truth? Is truth intrinsic to all people? Are people wrong to like "the illusion" too much to evolve higher? Are people who think they know the truth better or more accurate than those that lie or those that believe a lie?

If students in a classroom get back their scores on an algebra class, and some kids get more problems wrong than others, does this mean that they are stupid? Or have they just not studied and achieved the level of knowledge that the kids who aced the test have? Will that test forever determine their level of knowledge and intelligence? I don't think hardly anyone would agree that a child who fails a test will always fail all tests in the future. Most people would believe that, by failing one test, the student would be encouraged to sudy more and gain more experience... allowing him to one day ace his tests, like the students before him did.

Same goes for right and wrong, good and evil, light and darkness. They are all students and teachers of the same classroom. Some students develop slower than others. Some children will be bullies. Some nerds of the bullies will use the opportunity of the challenge to strengthen their self esteem and character. Some teachers teach with harsher methods and punish with seemingly cruel intent. The fact that can't be ignored is that, whether you're stuck in a classroom with a cruel teacher, or whether your teacher guides you with ease and care.... the end result is the same. You're bound to learn something!

Even those who play victim to the bullies and the cruel teachers... they may or may not learn how to overcome their own victimization in this greade, but the fact is that they are always being presented with the opportunity to progress through their struggle. Whether the choose to or not is up to them.

Messengers of truth VS Deceivers, and everything in between. Is it right to lie? Can someone who seems less evolved and more dishonest still show you the truth? Are you a "moron" for believing a lie? Are the decievers purely doing a disservice to those who fall for their lies?

I think that everyone can be a student and a teacher at the same time. I think that every wrong has some right buried within it. I think that every lie and every liar can tell you the truth. I don't think one false claim or one bad or delusional piece of information should ever cause anyone to stop learning from the source of those things. I don't think lies or truth really exist. I think that one mirrors the other. Truth can show you the lies, and lies can show you the truth.

A person such as a so-called disinfo agent often mixes lies with bits of truth. Some would choose to believe it all and form a cult of personality around that person. Some would recognize one lie, and then decide that the rest is junk, so the bits of truth get thrown out with the rest of the statements. Still others would recognize the lies, and instead of burning the whole field full of weeds, they would spare the field and use their eyes to look for the flowers of truth sprouting from between the weeds. They would then take those truths, dig them out roots and all from the soil in which they sprouted alongside the weeds, and plant them in their own garden of truth. None of these people are wrong, in my true opinion (as opposed to my occasional frustrated outcries). They will all learn the truth, but some choose a long and winding path, some choose to be satisfied with those who say they've been to the top until they find that climber to be either lying or embellishing, some will lose equillibrium and think they are going up when really they are going down... and some choose to build their own straight path out of a lot of broken pieces, clearing the brush along the way and occasionally getting snagged up and out of breath. The ones who see a path in no path at all might not get there first, but they will have learned the most ways out of any.

Ultimate Truth is the tallest mountain or sky, yet it is still part of the same ground that makes the deepest pit or ocean. The creatures living contently on all levels of elevation consider where they are at to be home, whether other creatures agree with them or not. Some creatures are nomads and traverse more ground than others. Some really adventurous creatures love exploring the deepest of depths as well as the highest of heights. They all exist on the same ground, whether they tolerate each other or not.

I have discovered that there is no right and wrong, no good or evil, no smart or dumb, no black or whight, high or low.... just a common ground which shifts in elevation. You can learn as much about the Earth from the depths of darkness as you can from the heights of lightness. As well as everything in between, as well as those who've lost their way, as well as those who've found, as well as those who wish to embellish or fabricate a tale of being in one place or the other.

Existence is about responding to stimulus, and either way you do it, you will eventually create more stimulus. There's no right or wrong way to experience, because all of us will eventually experience the same thing.

So if the Fascists come and we seem to have no control, we can just as easily change our point of view and control what we are experiencing in our head. We have all these different shades of choice, and some will choose the dark side...some will choose the light.

But we're all playing the same game here. It's best to not take it too seriously, because real joy (as we all know, we learn best when we enjoy the curriculum) comes from being able to experience it all. The liars, the truthers, the bottom feeders, the mountain goats, the Jesus, the Devil, the free, the oppressed, the chaos, the order, the good, the badd, the ugly, and the beauty of all of it.

My real question is to those who see things as right/wrong, truth/lies, etc....

How can one be worse than the other if they are both showing you the same thing from different angles? How can the full truth ever be known if you only have a one sided view of what you are looking at?

Is this why Jesus said "Love Thy Enemy"? Or why I believe it was a Roman Emperor who stated "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer"?

A lie really IS a paradoxical thing if knowing it can teach you truth... which in turn gets you to know the lie better.... which shows you more truth... ad infinitum!

Somewhere in the middle lies (maybe it does lie) the balance we all wish we had.

Any suggestions on where to find this middle ground? Or is the middle ground, as I hinted to in parentheses, an illusion as well?

Do lies really balance truth? Or are they one in the same thing? It's really up to you. Some would not be satisfied either way.

As a human, even I will choose a position somewhere between truth and lies. It's what makes me feel sane and whole and existent. But if accepting at leash half of your reality as delusion is what makes us sane, isn't that also just as insane?

If I wholeheartedly disagree with myself, how could I have ever come to such an agreement as to make any statement at all?

Philosophy at it's most schizophrenic? I don't know.

True or False .. Believe/don't believe, the whole thing is binary.. it's on or off.

it's 1 or 0.

Also, who gave the meaning to Sanity? maybe he/she/it was Insane.!

Originally posted by alien life uk
True or False .. Believe/don't believe, the whole thing is binary.. it's on or off.

Actually binary is a subjective projection which is not relayed as an assumption.

it's 1 or 0.

Try fuzzy logic. It's 1,0 or one of (maybe with or without prob, uncertain), it drops to categorical analysis. Again, assumption critical, especially is it truly mutually exclusive and exhaustive at the same time?

Also, who gave the meaning to Sanity? maybe he/she/it was Insane.!

That's the point, the basic assumption, and that if not you or me, is insane. Looking at ourselves, the ultimate assumptions are emotions or insane or both. From personal experience, in a difficult situation, you replace a lie with another, you cannot get to the truth.

[edit on 29-8-2008 by redled]

Originally posted by alien life uk
True or False .. Believe/don't believe, the whole thing is binary.. it's on or off.

it's 1 or 0.

Also, who gave the meaning to Sanity? maybe he/she/it was Insane.!

That's the whole... thing.

Can we question someone else without putting into question ourselves?

Like someone asking "Where's the proof?" when "proof" is right in front of them.

They are really asking themselves "Where's MY proof?", or even more, they ask themselves "How can I be comfortable with the existence of what YOU are presenting?" Breaking that question down a little more leads them even further into thenselves: "How can I be comfortable?"

The question makes the answer a mystery, and therefore they can stay comfortable/delusional with whatever "truth" or "lie" they've chosen.

To them, that's just fine. To us, we get annoyed or disturbed by the fact that, for them, it's sanity. For us, that's insanity. They could say the same about us. Everyone could say the same thing about the blind shrimp living near thermal vents in the deepest parts of the oceans. How could anyone be comfortable with that "delusion"?

They just are. Things may change. Let it be. Let yourself be however it is. Let yourself learn from a delusion or a lie or a truth or whatever you wanna call it, instead of living in it ir as it. You're really just watching it.
The biggest lie is that you are only that moment... but then if you are immersed in exactly what that moment is instead of what it isn't, the biggest lie to you is everything else.

Yoou can say everything is an illusion, you can say that everything is one, you can say that it is all what it seems and is individual, you can say that the truth is hidden from us, or that we wouldn't understand it even it was right in front of us....

But if you are favoring an absolution over somebody else's seeming dissolution, you're creating another heirarchy of elites and serfs, the exact thing that we can all agree here as common humans is what we dispise.

By knowing anything for certain, we are creating what we dispise, and it reeks of arrogance... but even arrogance has its place... which is so god damned frustrating as a human because you never feel completely certain that you are doing or saying the right thing... whether preaching peace and love is better than enforcing hate and war.

My human brain can only deduce that in the end, existence is just easier when it feels at peace and when it is loved and accepted and when it knows everybody is being as honest and tolerant as possible.

I can't be certain of anything I say, though. We've all entertained thoughts, no matter how brief, of hate and injustices and gotten a joyful rush out of it, whether we admit it or not. So love, hate, ease, disease.... it's ALL perspective... and it all makes the stomach of someone who views themselves as a rightious holy crusader just a little nauseous at the sheer weight of the thought.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch

Originally posted by alien life uk
True or False .. Believe/don't believe, the whole thing is binary.. it's on or off.

it's 1 or 0.

Also, who gave the meaning to Sanity? maybe he/she/it was Insane.!

That's the whole... thing.

Can we question someone else without putting into question ourselves?

Like someone asking "Where's the proof?" when "proof" is right in front of them.

Get your assumptions straight about your logic, then use your logic to get your assumptions straight about your perceptions. After that, man is a machine, because we apply ourselves to it, and for that reason only, but it is still clockwork.

They are really asking themselves "Where's MY proof?", or even more, they ask themselves "How can I be comfortable with the existence of what YOU are presenting?" Breaking that question down a little more leads them even further into thenselves: "How can I be comfortable?"

The question makes the answer a mystery, and therefore they can stay comfortable/delusional with whatever "truth" or "lie" they've chosen.

To them, that's just fine. To us, we get annoyed or disturbed by the fact that, for them, it's sanity. For us, that's insanity. They could say the same about us. Everyone could say the same thing about the blind shrimp living near thermal vents in the deepest parts of the oceans. How could anyone be comfortable with that "delusion"?

They just are. Things may change. Let it be. Let yourself be however it is. Let yourself learn from a delusion or a lie or a truth or whatever you wanna call it, instead of living in it ir as it. You're really just watching it.
The biggest lie is that you are only that moment... but then if you are immersed in exactly what that moment is instead of what it isn't, the biggest lie to you is everything else.

Yoou can say everything is an illusion, you can say that everything is one, you can say that it is all what it seems and is individual, you can say that the truth is hidden from us, or that we wouldn't understand it even it was right in front of us....

But if you are favoring an absolution over somebody else's seeming dissolution, you're creating another heirarchy of elites and serfs, the exact thing that we can all agree here as common humans is what we dispise.

By knowing anything for certain, we are creating what we dispise, and it reeks of arrogance... but even arrogance has its place... which is so god damned frustrating as a human because you never feel completely certain that you are doing or saying the right thing... whether preaching peace and love is better than enforcing hate and war.

My human brain can only deduce that in the end, existence is just easier when it feels at peace and when it is loved and accepted and when it knows everybody is being as honest and tolerant as possible.

I can't be certain of anything I say, though. We've all entertained thoughts, no matter how brief, of hate and injustices and gotten a joyful rush out of it, whether we admit it or not. So love, hate, ease, disease.... it's ALL perspective... and it all makes the stomach of someone who views themselves as a rightious holy crusader just a little nauseous at the sheer weight of the thought.

Logic and assumptions and perceptions all amount to the same thing. We use logic based on "educated" assumptions of what our perception of an event is. Just because we perceive, for example, a scientific experiment and repeated identical experiments showing "consistent" results, we then use logic based on the assumption that those persistent results show something true.

Logic can only be as straight as perception allows it to be.

Anything can be logical if it is congruent with perception.

Holy crap, I haven't used the word "congruent" since high school!

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
Logic and assumptions and perceptions all amount to the same thing.

No, they are very different things. Logic, rational. Assumptions, sub rational. Perceptions, interpreted environment.

We use logic based on "educated" assumptions of what our perception of an event is.

No, real logijk is based on axioms, not some rubbish leftist 'educated' beard. Real logijk is based on hard assesments of objective v subjective these days.

Just because we perceive, for example, a scientific experiment and repeated identical experiments showing "consistent" results, we then use logic based on the assumption that those persistent results show something true.

No, we just call in what is called a 'control' experiment to see if we are making any difference from the staus quo (difference to you).

Logic can only be as straight as perception allows it to be.

That was kinda the original point.

Anything can be logical if it is congruent with perception.

Holy crap, I haven't used the word "congruent" since high school!

No, it's called correlatory, and you really haven't done much proper math, logic since High School, have you?