Round 1: Jezus v Andrew E. Wiggin: Electric Pyramids?

The topic for this debate is “The Ancient Egyptians Had The Electric Light Bulb.”

Jezus will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Andrew E. Wiggin will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

There are no limits on the length of posts, but you may only use 1 post per turn.

Editing is strictly forbidden. For reasons of time, mod edits should not be expected except in critical situations.


Opening and closing statements must not contain any images and must have no more than 3 references.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post. Each individual post may contain up to 10 sentences of external source material, totaled from all external sources.

Links to multiple pages within a single domain count as 1 reference but there is a maximum of 3 individual links per reference, then further links from that domain count as a new reference. Excess quotes and excess links will be removed before judging.

The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.

When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

This Is The Time Limit Policy
Each debate must post within 24 hours of the timestamp on the last post. If your opponent is late, you may post immediately without waiting for an announcement of turn forfeiture. If you are late, you may post late, unless your opponent has already posted.

Each debater is entitled to one extension of 24 hours. The request should be posted in this thread and is automatically granted- the 24 hour extension begins at the expiration of the previous deadline, not at the time of the extension request.

In the unlikely event that tardiness results in simultaneous posting by both debaters, the late post will be deleted unless it appears in its proper order in the thread.

Judging will be done by a panel of anonymous judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. One of the debate forum moderators will then make a final post announcing the winner.

[edit on 21-8-2008 by MemoryShock]

Opening Statement – Jezus vs. Andrew Ender Wiggin

The 24 hour time frame has passed and my opponent has not posted his opening statement. I shall proceed with mine.

First off, a VERY big thank you to MemoryShock for conducting this tournament. The organizational skills exhibited by this staff member are second to none. Thank you for allowing us lowly mortals a medium to settle our differences. Thank you for the sacrifices you must have endured to allow this to take place.

Thank you to our audience. I hope you all enjoy reading this debate as much as I’m going to enjoy taking part in it.

I hope to make this debate as interesting as the topic its self. Certainly the thought of such an Ancient Civilization possessing something we hold so dear, as Electricity, is awe inspiring. It provides a sense of freedom, and hints at the notion if the Egyptians had electricity and light bulbs, they certainly must have gotten them from other-worldly beings; leaving us with the comforting feeling that maybe we’re not alone, after all.

(Allow me to clarify first: My side of the debate will rest of the notion that Egyptians did not possess conventional uses for electricity. This is not talking about rather or not the Egyptians may have accidently stumbled upon Electricity as a naturally occurring physical power, rather, I proclaim that they had not the technology to harness this power for their own uses)


The reasons for what makes this an interesting topic aside:






The Ancient Egyptians Had The Electric Light Bulb?
The Ancient Egyptians were certainly a mysterious culture. Its easy to set back and marvel at the grandeur of their accomplishments:

• The Great Pyramids
  
• The science and math breakthroughs that they used to calculate the height of annual floods.
  
• Their forms of body preservation
  

Certainly – very remarkable for such an ancient civilization, but are they as remarkable as some people would claim?
Were the ancient Egyptians so technologically advanced that their own versions of science, mathematics, and engineering would far outweigh our own modern accomplishments when you consider all things equal?

Could it be that we concoct wild and unworldly achievements, such as domestication of electricity many thousands of years before history books proclaim, and attribute them to the Ancient Egyptians so that we can call upon Extra Terrestrial influence as the explanation, so that our sub conscience mind can rest easily knowing that our modern society is just that; modern…..within the confines of terrestrial human potential, and not a repeat with a slight innovation?

The Freudian “Id” of modern society is that we are the most advanced thing in the universe.

If Ancient Egyptians discovered conventional uses for electricity in an applicable and productive form, as we use it today, a dozen centuries or more before our own modern inventors did, would that not, in some way, diminish our own monumental accomplishments?

In other words: If the Ancient Egyptians discovered how to harness and take advantage of electricity many millennia before Ben Franklin, then how truly advanced is our modern civilization?

The answer to that, I’d be willing to bet, would not set well with a lot of people.

A lot of theories exist about the Ancient Egyptians today that seem to put them up on a pedestal and exaggerate their accomplishments to make it appear that they are centuries beyond the capabilities of ancient human civilizations. Has our imagination run wild?

While my argument does not try to dispel the existence of Extra Terrestrials – I will try and show you why I believe they had no connections with the Ancient Egyptians, and thus, the Egyptians could not have possessed the technology to harness electricity.

I will argue with facts based on historical findings and rationalized outcomes. A sort of “Occam’s razor” approach if you will.

In a nutshell, I intend to show you that it was impossible for the ancient Egyptians to possess something as advanced and life changing as the electric light bulb. The only theories that exist to suggest otherwise have serious flaws in them, and it is in those flaws that the possibility is destroyed.

I await my opponent’s response, in the mean time; I pose the following questions to my opponent:

1. Inventions exist to meet a need. What would be some problems that Ancient Egyptians faced which would require them to seek alternate means of illumination, aside from the commonly themed torch on the wall?
   
2. If the Ancient Egyptians possessed the electric light bulb, certainly evidence of its existence would still be around today. What would you say are some reasons we haven’t found any?
   
3. What would have been some methods that the Egyptians used to create the electricity used to power a light bulb as described by experts?
   

Main Post #1

It would seem as if my opponent has decided to opt out of this competition...

Never the less - i feel obligated to contribute a little more in opposition of the notion that the Ancient Egyptians had acquired the electric light bulb.

Lets look at what started it all -

The Denderah Lightbulb

The notion is that this carving is of a light bulb. Certainly - some twisted angle point of view will make it look as though this assertion is correct.

But lets evaluate this proposition:

You have what is defiantly a flower at the base.
From this flower protrudes a long bubble like object - which the theory says is a glass bulb
and within that "bulb" is a long snake looking object that the theory calls the wire inside the bulb that creates the actual light.


Certainly - IF this is a light bulb - its the largest light bulb ever invented.

But you can only obtain this conclusion of "its a light bulb" if you omit the hieroglyphs located on the actual carving its self.


Here we see a very good explanation of what i mean (from the above source):

The "cable" is described in the text beside the depiction as a symbolic sun barge moving across the sky (in a form which is by no means unique to these carvings).

It seems to be a bit of a stretch to describe this as a cable, although I suppose you could argue that the movement of the sun mirrored the movement of electricity.

However, the "cable" is attached to what proponents describe as a "socket", but is in fact a lotus flower.

This flower appears in this form all over Egypt, and is always a lotus flower. Furthermore, the text beside the depiction confirms that it is a lotus flower.

Unfortunately, it seems that modern eyes have seen what they want to see in an ancient scene without considering the text provided by the ancient people to explain exactly what they were doing.

In the carvings, Harsamtawy (a form of Horus known as Horus who joins the two lands), son of Hathor, takes the form of a serpent (although he also appears as a hawk).

According to one myth, Horus sprung into existence out of a lotus flower which blossomed in the watery abyss of Nun at dawn at the beginning of every year.

The "light-bulbs" are in fact lotus flower bulbs, mythologically giving birth to the snake.

Another panel shows the bulb opening into a lotus blossom and the snake standing erect in the centre as a representation of the god Horus.

On the southern wall of the last room, a falcon, preceded by a snake emerges from a lotus blossom within a boat.

So if the writings that are given to us by the artists are any indication as to what the imagery is to represent, then we can easily discern that the picture is not of a light bulb...its of a mythological figure being born into the physical world by means of the lotus flower.

If this carving was the "tell-tale" sign that egyptians had electric light bulbs, then certainly the text provided with the carving (that always gets ommited by proponents of the idea of the ancient light bulb) is clearly foolproof evidence that this theory is destroyed.


With all of we know of the Ancient Egyptians - this was the only "clue" left behind that can in any way shape or form be misinterpreted as a light bulb...but i say one last time - the text tells us what the drawing is supposed to represent...

Did the Ancient Egyptians have the electric light bulb?
No. Nothing found so far would even remotely support that argument.

Though it is very enjoyable to ponder the notion.




questions for Jezus

Question 1

Where did you go??

Jezus has forfeited two posts and thusly the debate.

Andrew E. Wiggin is the winner and will advance to Round 2.