Pleasurable Sin

You know I’ve never tasted cat feces. I’ve also never slammed by finger in the door intentionally. I’ve never stabbed myself, I’ve never intentionally broken a bone – I’ve never done any of those things. Now, I have the ability to do them and I have the free will to do them if I choose, but I just chose not to. They’re not appealing in any sort of way, unfortunately sin isn’t quite the same as that.

You see, if god were to of made sin as distasteful or as unpleasant as stabbing yourself, slamming your fingers in a door or eating cat feces, then the entire world would be for the most part saved and completely sinless. People wouldn’t commit sin because it would be completely appalling but yet that’s not the way sin is, is it.

You see in most cases sin is extremely pleasurable. In fact god went to such extremes as to put massive amounts of nerve endings on the reproductive organs and penalizes people for using them. Having sex in any way for anything other then procreation is suddenly sinful and therefore you can’t do it, you shouldn’t do it, it’s bad.

God made sin pleasurable in most instances and punished people for doing what felt right and felt good. If God didn’t want us to sin, why did he make sinning feel good?

[edit on 17-8-2008 by andre18]

Originally posted by andre18
If God didn’t want us to sin, why did he make sinning feel good?

Because he's a cruel jerk and he wants us to be miserable and to feel guilty about anything we do.

If it is necessary to turn to God (or, by extension, the Church) in order to receive forgiveness for one's sins, what better way of guaranteeing one to do so than by classifying the most natural human behavior as sinful? All of the seven deadlies are, to some extent, necessary behavioral patterns for the survival of the species (or the individual). Without lust, for example, no one would procreate and the race would die out in a single generation. Gluttony is another necessary trait, especially for hunter-gatherer societies for whom the next meal is not guaranteed. One must take in as many calories as possible because it could be days before the next time one feeds.

But I wouldn't worry too much about it (and I'm pretty sure you're not) because if there is an almighty god, we're much too insignificant for it to care about our behavior.

You are equating sin with sex, and sex between married man & wife is holy according to God. You also are accusing God of "setting" up the people who choose to commit fornication, which is not correct. You are trying to justfy your own beliefs that God isn't fair, and no one can abide by His rules.

But the reason the sex act feels so good is because it is a drug. Yes it is a drug because it releases a very strong chemicle that stimulates the human body to experience what can only be described as the most pleasurable feelings if but only for a very short time.

Not only does i release this chemicle, it releases othe chemicles that allow for a very strong nlove bond between partners, which is essential to keep the pair together. It also happens to be the very act of procreation, which without the race would die out.

So remember God didn't set anyone up, He just said sex outside of taking a vow to be faithful to one mate for life is a sin, and when you think about it, it is highly intelligent.

It keeps down stds, and also tension/hatred between those who have been cheated on. It allowws for strong bonding between a man & a woman
that should last a lifetime if both the man & woman are living according to Gods word.

So instead of knocking it, try it and see if your life doesn't become better and happier....chasnces are very good it will if you rewally follow the bible to the letter.

You also are accusing God of "setting" up the people who choose to commit fornication

What do you mean, can you expand on this sentence? - how am I accusing god of setting up people who have sex?


[edit on 17-8-2008 by andre18]

Originally posted by andre18
You see in most cases sin is extremely pleasurable. In fact god went to such extremes as to put massive amounts of nerve endings on the reproductive organs and penalizes people for using them. Having sex in any way for anything other then procreation is suddenly sinful and therefore you can’t do it, you shouldn’t do it, it’s bad

the idea that sex is only for procreation and not for enjoyment is not biblically supported (just read song of solomon)

the sin part is doing it outside of marriage which isnt always pleasurable. (unwanted pregnancies, STDs and hurt mates if you are married)

i would also think that sins like murder arent really that pleasurable. (unless something is off about you)

its like having heavy machine. god isnt telling you not to use it, but he is telling you not to use without the safety guidelines to watch out for certain consequences.

So instead of knocking it, try it and see if your life doesn't become better and happier....chasnces are very good it will if you rewally follow the bible to the letter

Not to nit pick or troll...because I hate that...but I tried following that way and it wasn't so hot for me. I agree that there are several commandments that are there for a great reason but some of the ideas...I dunno. I know full well people will think I am nuts for saying this and I tell you now I really don't mind whatever comments you will give me after this.

I think pleasures of the flesh are not sins if all parties agree. My wife and I had an experience that I won't go to detail in but none of the three parties involved were not hurt and all parties agreed to it so where is the sin?

-Kyo

Originally posted by KyoZero
I won't go to detail in but none of the three parties involved were not hurt and all parties agreed to it so where is the sin?

so, where they hurt or not? im sorry but something is off about that sentence and it confuses me alittle but i dont know what it is.

btw, sin also involves disobedience to god too....

HA!!! I am such an idiot :-p

Thanks :-p

ok lemme try this again....

I won't go to detail in but none of the three parties involved were hurt and all parties agreed to it so where is the sin?

whew!!! gotta get some sleep and a new English lesson

Plus seeing as God doesn't factor in my life there was no sin for us

-Kyo

[edit on 18-8-2008 by KyoZero]

miriam, if thats you in the photo, id like to support your point that sex is for pleasure not just procreation, and ask for your hand in marriage

edit: back to the topic...

God did not "make sin" as the OP suggests. God made humans, and he made us free and independent to choose how we live. this is because he wanted to make us in His image, to live, decide, act, and create just like Himself but on a smaller scale.

Unfortunately, humans looked away from the mirror of God and started looking at themselves like narcissus and fell in love with their own selves and desires. Selfishness is the root of all sin and godlessness. murder, adultery, idolatry, rebellion are all acts that seek a selfish advantage. Humans decided to follow their own selfish desires, and the negative conseuqences of these actions are what the Bible refers to as sin. Sin is human's selfish and destructive actions, God did not make sin. He just made us free to chose His holy, loving and selfless way or our own selfish, destructive ways. simple.

sin is never pleasurable once the act is committed. murderers are tourmented souls full of grief and anguish. adulterers are secretive and paranoid, and sometimes in pain from STDs. kids who rebel from loving parents are lost and confused and easily persuaded the wrong way. God's law is a guaranteed way of staying healthy and happy and retain a little slice of our ever diminishing childhood innocence.

[edit on 18/8/2008 by sollie]

[edit on 18/8/2008 by sollie]

Hmm, firstly, just find the above post interesting as Narcissus is from the ancient Greek - not relevant to the christian faith per se.

Sex out of wedlock can be pleasurable and involve no detriment to people, there are safe ways of having sex without physical harm, condoms being quite safe when used properly. I've been lucky enough on occasion to have sex outside of marriage, sometimes with long-term partners and other times not. Now, I'm not going to claim there was never any emotional fallout from the odd one night stand, however, there have been some (one night stands) where we have become friends and nothing more and gone on to have relationships with other partners and maintain friendships.

Of course, the 7 deadlies are pretty good guidelines for what not to do, but sometimes they need to be broken. Although, I'm not a christian and could not care less about those rules or any final "judgement".

the story of narcissus is very relavent to Christianity because it is a story about ego and selfishness, and Christianity is about overcoming the ego and selfishness of our actions and lives. if you can't find the relevance, then think harder.

I think the phrase in question that would be most relevant "per se", if you'd care to look up the meaning and usage of this, then you'll find that I'm right.

I'm gonna take a leap in the dark and hazard you're coming at this from a christian point of view? Yes, congratulations, the christians have co-opted and bastardised so many myths, legends, rituals, festivals etc from other cultures, that of course there is very little left that a christian cannot claim to be relevant to them.

Is urging me to "think harder" not ego, a sense of self-aggrandisement seems implicit in that statement, also smugness... maybe Learn Harder is an appropriate rebuttal?

Anyway, back to sex... in/out of wedlock, men, women, blah, blah, blah, is it a sin? Only in the eyes and minds of some, the pleasure (orgasm) is a biological and mental reaction, there's a feeling of closeness, designed to promote harmony - always after sex I want to cuddle-up to and be close with my lady. Although I want to do this most of the time regardless of sex, but these times, there's a special kind of closeness, contentment...

aww, I'm getting all dewy-eyed

its just about principles and the long standing wisdom of the human race. just like buddhist principles often parallel baghavad gita principles and taoist proverbs echo old testament proverbs, because the same basic lessons about the human condition are reflected in the wisdom of pretty much all cultures.

so from an intellectual point of view, i have no problem using the well known story of narcissus to make a point about the fallen human condition. i do happen to believe that Jesus Christ is our redemption and answer to all the wisdom of this fallen race. is this thread not about the nature of sin as presented in the bible? this is what i was responding to. its not strictly about sex and its not strictly about christianity. read the OP.

i don't understand why you picked on my reference to narcissus in the first place. i think virtually any readers here can see the relavence of this to the discussion as well as understand in all sobriety and rationality the point i was making in response to the OP. i cant think why you saw the need to take issue with this point, except as occasion to air some tangential hang up you have about christianity, which you've now made clear.

you seem to have stuck your neck out for no apparant reason and made yourself look harsh and unreasonable, let alone slightly irrelevant to the thread at hand. whatever floats your boat.

Originally posted by andre18
You know I’ve never tasted cat feces. I’ve also never slammed by finger in the door intentionally. I’ve never stabbed myself, I’ve never intentionally broken a bone – I’ve never done any of those things. Now, I have the ability to do them and I have the free will to do them if I choose, but I just chose not to. They’re not appealing in any sort of way, unfortunately sin isn’t quite the same as that.

We don't know you've never done those things. First we have to believe you to be credible before we can take you for your word.

You see, if god were to of made sin as distasteful or as unpleasant as stabbing yourself, slamming your fingers in a door or eating cat feces, then the entire world would be for the most part saved and completely sinless.

Straw man, God didn't make sin. Satan is the father of sin. Replace "God" with "Satan" and re-evaluate your statement. Well, do that if you care about being precise. Now you know why the 'father of lies' and the 'deceiver' makes sin so sweet and fun at first. So he can place that hook in your mouth.

People wouldn’t commit sin because it would be completely appalling but yet that’s not the way sin is, is it?

Nope, sin is sweet to the taste, yet bitter when digested. Now you know why Satan is "good" at what he does.

You see in most cases sin is extremely pleasurable. In fact god went to such extremes as to put massive amounts of nerve endings on the reproductive organs and penalizes people for using them.

God created your sex organs for pleasure. He tells you when to use it and when not to for PROTECTION. In societies where pre-marital sex is forbidden the divorce rate is under 5%. There would also be no STDs. No children out of wedlock. I can see the genius in telling us to wait for marriage.

Having sex in any way for anything other then procreation is suddenly sinful and therefore you can’t do it, you shouldn’t do it, it’s bad.

Straw man argument, the Bible says no such thing.

God made sin pleasurable in most instances and punished people for doing what felt right and felt good. If God didn’t want us to sin, why did he make sinning feel good?

God didn't create sin, Satan did. Again, replace Satan with God and your questions will become crystal clear.

Originally posted by jokei
Sex out of wedlock can be pleasurable and involve no detriment to people, there are safe ways of having sex without physical harm...

I hear this all the time. I don't agree. Your sexual activity and disrespect for the institution of the family impacts our society as a whole and puts pressure on other traditional families.

An example would be legislation followings these social trends allowing for "no-fault" divorce and the problem of single-parent "families." For those who feel it is important for a mother to stay home with her children to raise them, it can be virtually impossible for many to do so because of economic pressures.

Your lack of sexual inhibition may not cause you harm, but the effects harm others.

Originally posted by andre18
God made sin pleasurable in most instances and punished people for doing what felt right and felt good. If God didn’t want us to sin, why did he make sinning feel good?

There is a myriad of sin that is not pleasurable. Suicide is a sin, for example, and I would imagine that it is not typically pleasurable.

Your post seems to focus on why sex feels good if it is a sin. Sex is not a sin... it is all in the way it is done. For instance, raping an infant may be pleasurable for the perpetrator, but it is still sinful.

Pretty much, sex without accepting the accompanying responsibility of procreating, is sinful. Things like drugs, money, sex, food, leisure time, politics, etc., are not inherently sinful, but abuse or extremes with any of these incurs side effects and impacts either yourself or others in negative ways.

Sex is not a sin. If it is shared in marriage then it is not, if it is shared between 2 mates out of lust then it is wrong. Sex is a gift from God and it should be used after the covenant between a wife/husband.

I hear this all the time. I don't agree. Your sexual activity and disrespect for the institution of the family impacts our society as a whole and puts pressure on other traditional families.

I am going to jump back in here for a moment. Let's leave religion down for this specific argument? How does the fact that I slept with my wife and another girl at once put pressure on another family?

You say it's disrespect for the institution of family. Who's definition are we going on?

Yes we agree that my having a three-way didn't harm me. Ok good but how did it harm you?

-Kyo

Originally posted by KyoZero
I am going to jump back in here for a moment. Let's leave religion down for this specific argument? How does the fact that I slept with my wife and another girl at once put pressure on another family? You say it's disrespect for the institution of family. Who's definition are we going on?

This kind of activity is not one man and one woman consuming their love with the possibility of creating a child. It is not even "fun" for the married couple as they raise their children. What is it then? A recreational sport?

So, just the fact that this attitude of casual sex is held contributes to the breakdown of the family. Similar attitudes impacting the institution of marriage include the acceptance of homosexual "marriage," polygamy, polyamory, bestiality, and other alternative family structures. It is one thing to attempt to fix bad situations; it is quite another to promote them as "normal" and all of these stress traditional families.

The breakdown of the family is now causing a myriad of social problems in our nation. This includes gang violence, single/unwed mothers, divorce, etc. The divorce process is an expensive and inefficient in economic terms. The impact on the economy forces married mothers to work in order for families to thrive, and the cost of childcare is an inefficient use money as well. Mothers raising their own children has allowed for strong families to exist and prepared the next generation for the same. Your practices threaten this way of life. And if a child is conceived, who raises it? You and your wife? You and the other girl? Is she a single mother? Or you do murder the child to evade your responsibility?

And even is childbearing is not an issue, as you and/or they are sterile, then you are not participating in a traditional family. Do you still vote for candidates who do not respect the traditional family? This impacts me and my family. Had you been married to one woman and yourself been raising children, it is very likely that the issues which impact families in a negative way would be ones that you would impact positively with your participation in government, or at least in votes.

To model families after your favorite past-time is ludicrous; it does not promote mutual trust, security, or love with your wife. I would be very curious to see what studies have been done on three+some relationships on the stability of marriage, and also on political philosophies (socialist? anarchist?) In any case, I would dread having a woman who would tolerate such disrespectful treatment raise my children, and I wonder how it would play out in the long run. I imagine that these relationships are almost invariably a "train wreck" of emotion and seared conscience.

And even is childbearing is not an issue, as you and/or they are sterile, then you are not participating in a traditional family. Do you still vote for candidates who do not respect the traditional family?

Well first off yes child-bearing was absolutely no issue. I've had a vasectomy and there was no issue. It's clear you've no real issue there so let me move to the next part.

It hasn't affected how I feel one bit abot government. First off, I believe gay marrige is an important right. I believe sex can exist outside of the bible's aspect on it. I sit here listening to people tell me I am wrong for doing so. I am watching as I read your post and you seemed to have turned my sexual experience into the downfall of the nation.

Now this next part...I'm sorry this is insane IMO

To model families after your favorite past-time is ludicrous; it does not promote mutual trust, security, or love with your wife.

Model families? Where have you seen me tell others to live my way? I have freely told people that while Sarah and I loved what we did, we are the rarity. Not alot of families can handle what we did hence I don't really condone it for most. So telling me I am modeling families off of this is ludicrous. Now I have taken in acount that you may have meant to say modeling MY family after that and not others'. That is ridiculous. This ONE-TIME act happened 3 years after we were married. Befor I get into the big part I want of my argument let me hit up this statement.

In any case, I would dread having a woman who would tolerate such disrespectful treatment raise my children, and I wonder how it would play out in the long run. I imagine that these relationships are almost invariably a "train wreck" of emotion and seared conscience.

We don't have kids. We're never going to have them. We have far too many goals and frankly kids would get in our way. Now I know some may think that we are horible peopel for this but isn't that the point? The problem here is not may people left want to take responsibility. I had a vasectomy as opposed to putting my wife through a hysterectomy. (PS...if they tell you it doesn't hurt...bull) The thing is we don't want kids and wwe would be horrible parents with a child growing in a loveless home. We enjoy sex...alot. I am not afraid to admit it and neither is she. The thing is we took responsibility and we won't run into that problem.

Our relationship isn't a train wreck at all. It's is quite frankly amazing. But let's get to the point. If anyone hee thinks they know my marriage better than I then come on down and tell me. I assure you that you are completely wrong. After we did what we did we are closer than ever. Three years later life is wonderful and so is that marriage I have. I love this woman more thn anything I can fathom. What we did we shared and it was amazing how close it has made us. We even still talk to the girl who is our friend. I doubt it will ever happen again but not for the sake of regret rather because we got past that moment and it's ok now. The thing is our marriage would have survived just the same without it.

If you want to know what I think here it is in plain english.

I think the problem is when other's try to tell people how to live. Then it's complimented by the other issue. I think if people are that affected by my doings then that shows weakness in their own relationships. Let's pretend I somehow changed the vote and polygamy and homosexual marriage was now legal (although I am not saying I agre with all of it so please don't twist my words to say that I did)

So I legalize homosexual marriage all over the country. Am I forcing you to leave your wife and marry a guy? Nope? Am I telling you that you must now take another wife? Nope. It's just freedom for gays should be a right. Who get's damaged if you are right about God? If God is the one and I have sex with 12 hookers AND a man AND my wife then what happens to you? Nothing. You still live your life as you see it and if it is right you go to heaven and I suffer. So I ask again, how does this harm you? Let's say tomorow the definition of family changes. How does this hurt you? You stay with your family and live on. If someone said they were to force you to break family then I would be equally upset because that is an infringement on your rights.

The thing is, as crazy as that above scenario is, it just isn't the case. I am NOT letting my sexual experience or 'past-time' as you put it harm the world. I am not voting any different. I am different from most. My wife and I can do what we want so long as it doesn't harm others. The other girl in question wasn't harmed and neither were we. Sadly whether people want to or not, they simply cannot determine if I was hurt or the girl was or my wife was. That's for us thank you.

Again, let me suffer and go to hell if that is what will happen to me. I of course do not think it will happen but that isn't for me to decide for you.

Sorry but I fail to see how I am hurting you. I am not in anyway making you live our way.

-Kyo