Russia/Georgia Situation News & Updates

Holy Baloni!

maloy has deleted his posts over the last few pages. For all I know he's deleting all of them. He must be totally furious. I'll U2U him now.

I'm currently searching for 1st hand evidence. I came across this blog:

blog.wired.com...

and what did I see? Exactly the same to-ing and fro-ing we've seen in here. We soooo need 1st-hand witnesses.

Be a lot easier if they let you get russian tv in the usa so you could watch /judge for yourselves . Can't you complain to anyone about it ?

reply to post by Muppetus Galacticus




[edit on 14-8-2008 by all2human]

[edit on 14-8-2008 by all2human]

canadianpress.google.com... fPWw

Prime minister says Russia reverting to a Soviet-era mentality
12 minutes ago

CUPIDS, N.L. — Prime Minister Stephen Harper says Russia's invasion of neighbouring Georgia indicates the Russian government is reverting to a Soviet-era mentality that should be condemned by all democratic governments.

"We do call on Russia to respect the territorial integrity of Georgia," Harper said Thursday following a funding announcement in eastern Newfoundland.

"I am deeply troubled by a notion I see developing in Russia, and that is a notion that Russia somehow has a say or some control over countries outside of its borders."

Harper said Canada was very troubled by the ongoing conflict and bloodshed in Georgia and he called on both sides to respect a recent ceasefire agreement.

"In my judgment, this is a very worrisome development. It really indicates a Soviet-era mentality. And I think it is something that all democratic countries should speak out strongly against and I hope Russia will reconsider its actions."

Explosions were heard Thursday near the town of Gori as a Russian troop withdrawal from the strategic city seemed to collapse and the ceasefire appeared even more shaky.

Meanwhile, Russia's foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, declared that the world "can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity."

Despite Lavrov's harsh words, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev held a meeting Thursday with the leaders of Georgia's two separatist provinces.

Gori is in South Ossetia, the separatist region where Russian and Georgian forces recently fought a brutal five-day battle.

Besides the hundreds killed since hostilities broke out last week, the United Nations estimates 100,000 Georgians have been uprooted.

reply to post by -Rugged Shark-


This may seem to confirm that report:

Despite Georgian assertions that Russian forces had destroyed the city, there was little damage to the buildings.

But there were signs of looting which locals blamed on militia out of Russian control. Shops had been smashed up and there were very few parked cars.

"They were stealing cars and breaking into shops," Vasily, 72, said. "They spoke Ossetian."

www.alertnet.org...

It seems that Russia cannot or will not control the Ossetian militia if these reports are genuine. That's dangerous because it threatens to expand what was merely a military and political conflict into one between two people who are deeply disenchanted with one another and which would be fueled not by the concerns we've all been discussing, but by something much harder to quell - hatred, and vengeance.

My current hypothesis: Russian forces are destroying arms and dismantling bases in Georgia either to weaken the president's power base, and/or to prevent further attacks on Georgia's part, but they do not plan to remain in Georgia or to take the capital. However, Ossetian militia are not being sufficiently controlled by Russian forces, and as a result, looting and violent reprisals are occurring. Russia may be staying in Georgia in part because it does not want to be blamed for withdrawing and leaving the militia there to run amok. If they stay they will be considered occupiers, but if they leave they may be blamed for the Ossetian militia's actions. Alternatively, this could be the cover Russia is using to remain in Georgia longer. Either way, Georgia may be capitalizing on this to vilify Russia, and Russia may be capitalizing on it in order to keep its forces inside Georgia.

I'm open to all possibilities, but that's my current hypothesis.


[edit on 8/14/2008 by AceWombat04]

reply to post by Muppetus Galacticus
What about the 100 or so tanks in Abkhazskaya Georgia?or the dug-in troops in South Ossetia Georgia? surely SO will be a sticky point to a true Russian withdrawl.



[edit on 14-8-2008 by all2human]

[edit on 14-8-2008 by all2human]

[edit on 14-8-2008 by all2human]

Originally posted by all2human
reply to post by Muppetus Galacticus

 

What about the 100 or so tanks in zugdidi?or the dug-in troops in SO?, it is in these areas i see becoming sticky to a true Russian withdrawl,


[edit on 14-8-2008 by all2human]

Like a lot of this conflict we don't really have much of an idea what's going on until the dust has cleared at that particular point on the map.

As for setting up shop in S.Ossetia and Abkhazia, as far as I'm aware that goes against the peace plan Russia signed as everyone should be going back to where they were, right? If they do stay in the disputed regions, what then? Unless hostilities resume I don't see anything happening against Russia but more words back and forth.

You are right though about it being sticky. It's been "over" for a couple of days now but there is still very little light shining the way for us to know just how sticky.

EDIT: I misread something

[edit on 14/8/2008 by Muppetus Galacticus]

reply to post by Willbert


As far as I can tell, Gen. Berisov is quite a capable commander. I don't think that he will let the SO militia do whatever they want.

But he's sort of stuck in a difficult position, he can use all of his men to get the militia under control and not carrying out the orders from Moscow. Or he can carry out the orders from Moscow and let the militia rampage the place.
Or he chooses the middle way and tries to keep looting etc to a minimum.

edit- spelling

[edit on 14-8-2008 by -Rugged Shark-]

unian.net...

Ukrainian Armed Forces to implement Yushchenko’s decree on Russian ships


The Armed Forces of Ukraine will implement the orders of President of Ukraine Victor Yushchenko concerning restrictions of movement of the Russian Federation Black Sea fleet on the Ukrainian territory.

According to an UNIAN correspondent, Ukrainian General Staff head, army general Serhiy Kyrychenko claimed this today upon meeting with military attachés of foreign states accredited in Ukraine.

"The president`s decrees on the Black Sea fleet will, of course, be implemented on the territory of Ukraine," Unian news agency quoted Serhiy Kirichenko as telling a briefing. "The defence ministry and the general staff are among those state bodies responsible for this task."

He also informed that today the Defense Ministry held a session to work out concrete tasks and make decisions on this issue.

As UNIAN reported earlier, Ukraine`s president claimed Russian navy ships that were deployed to the Georgian coast will need authorization to return to the base Russia leases from Ukraine.

Viktor Yushchenko`s decree Wednesday requires Russia`s Black Sea Fleet to submit a request to return to its base in the Crimea 10 working days before its planned return.

The Russian navy squadron was deployed to Georgia`s coast as part of Russia`s onslaught on Georgia beginning last week.

Earlier on Thursday, Anatoly Nogovitsyn, the deputy head of the Russian General Staff, told a news conference in Moscow that the instructions of the Ukrainian authorities, which commissioned the Russian Black Sea Fleet to submit a request to return to its base in the Crimea, are not legitimate for the Russian Naval Forces. The news conference was broadcast live by Vesti24 television.

“We have only one Commander-in-Chief, the Russian Federation President, and all statements from abroad are not legitimate for us”, Nogovitsyn claimed.

Digital_Reality beat me to it

[edit on 14-8-2008 by -Rugged Shark-]

reply to post by -Rugged Shark-


no biggie, we are both trying to be helpful.
Good job!

reply to post by Digital_Reality


So basicly , If I understand this development correctly, The Russians are saying the Decrees of the Ukrainians mean nothing to Russia? That they will Dock where they want and to hell with the Ukraine. Is that about right?

reply to post by titorite


Thats what I got from it.

“We have only one Commander-in-Chief, the Russian Federation President, and all statements from abroad are not legitimate for us”, Nogovitsyn claimed.

The above kinda sums it up. They are saying "your not the boss of me!"


[edit on 14-8-2008 by Digital_Reality]

So basically. If the Russian ship's try to return to Sevastapol then Ukraine will have to use force to stop them...?

EDIT: Infact...Ukraine is prepared to use force to stop them...?

[edit on 14-8-08 by I3LiP]

U.S. Secretary of Defense says there needs to be consequences for Russia's actions.

GATES SAYS THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME CONSEQUENCES FOR RUSSIAN ACTIONS

www.alertnet.org...

Note: However, CNN.com has in its breaking news banner, this to say: "Defense Secretary Gates does not foresee U.S. military action in Georgia-Russia conflict"

So we shouldn't assume he meant military consequences.

[edit on 8/14/2008 by AceWombat04]

reply to post by I3LiP


Im wondering the same thing. I guess we will see.

reply to post by Digital_Reality


If Ukraine or Russia sinks another's ship...I'm just going straight to my bunker now.

Originally posted by titorite
reply to post by Digital_Reality

 

So basicly , If I understand this development correctly, The Russians are saying the Decrees of the Ukrainians mean nothing to Russia? That they will Dock where they want and to hell with the Ukraine. Is that about right?

Of course they claim violations of previous agreement by Ukraine, which they think gives them the right to deviate from their part of the deal. In reality, it's pretty preposterous that Russians must (according to the contract) report to Ukraine the destination of the ships wishing to leave the harbour -- military secrecy goes down the drain in that arrangement.

One of my family members is a former Ukranian sailor (pretty nationalistic at that) and even he agrees this is bull.

www.geotimes.ge...

Russia to U.S.: Choose us or Georgia Russia pressed the United States on Wednesday to choose between "a real partnership" with Moscow or an "illusory" relationship with U.S. ally Georgia.

Washington said it's sticking with Georgia.
"As to choosing, the United States has made very clear that it is standing by the democratically elected government of Georgia," Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Wednesday.

She spelled out the Bush administration's stance after Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov called Georgia's government "a special project for the United States."

"And we are aware that the U.S. is uptight about this project," Lavrov said in remarks broadcast on Russian television. "But a choice will have to be made someday between considerations of prestige related to an illusory project and a real partnership in matters which indeed require collective efforts."

Rice, amid reports that Russian troops remained on the move Wednesday, pushed Russia to abide by a cease-fire signed Tuesday by the Russian and Georgian presidents.
Russian military action in Georgia "must stop and must stop now," Rice said.

Rice said Moscow already faced "quite significant" diplomatic consequences over its conflict with Georgia before Tuesday's cease-fire agreement, which calls for Russian and Georgian troops to return to pre-conflict positions.

Bush said reports he had received were contrary to Russian assurances that it had halted military operations. Bush said he was told the Russian military had blocked Georgia's major east-west highway, and had soldiers at the main port at Poti. There were reports that some ships had been attacked, he said.

Russia has likely moved additional troops into the disputed Georgian provinces and into Georgia proper over the past several days, several administration officials told CNN on Wednesday.

The officials said the United States now believes Russia may have 15,000 or more troops in the region. That would be an increase from the 8,000-10,000 the U.S. government estimated when the fighting began. A Bush administration official stressed that the scope of Russia's military effort remains unclear.

Any violations of the cease-fire would call into question Russia's "suitability" as an international partner, Rice told reporters before leaving on a diplomatic trip to Europe.

Bush administration officials told CNN the United States and its European allies were considering kicking Russia out of the G-8, the group of the world's largest industrial economies, and other international organizations as punishment for its actions in Georgia.

Rice discounted concerns that Moscow would no longer assist Washington on thorny diplomatic issues such as efforts to halt nuclear programs in Iran and North Korea, saying it had its own interests at stake.

"Let's be very clear whose interests are being served by the partnership that Russia and the United States have engaged in on Iran or North Korea," she said. "Again, it's not a favor to the United States."
Russia sent troops and tanks into the breakaway Georgia region of South Ossetia last week after Georgia's military acted to clamp down on Russian-linked separatists there. Separatists in South Ossetia want independence -- or unification with North Ossetia, which is in Russia.

The conflict quickly spread to other parts of Georgia, including Abkhazia, another separatist region.

Georgia has been a close U.S. ally, contributing troops to the war in Iraq and seeking to join NATO with Washington's support. In a CNN interview Wednesday, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili criticized the United States for not doing more to help his nation.

"America is losing the whole region, and this is the region of eastern and central Europe," said Saakashvili, who called for the United States and European powers to send peacekeepers to the region. "This is much bigger than any other place where there is American influence, and this is the most natural allies of America."

But later Wednesday, in an interview with CNN's "Situation Room," Saakashvili seemed to have a change of heart. He said that after speaking with President Bush earlier in the day, he felt "there will be no compromise at the expense of our territorial integrity."

"I never accused the United States in the first place of anything," he said. "I just said that the Russians mistook some of the statements at certain levels."

Rice defended the administration's response to the fighting.
"I don't think you can have any doubt but that the United States has, from the very beginning, believed that the South Ossetian situation needed to be resolved and resolved peacefully, as we've been working for months and months and months to do, but that Russia seriously overreached, that Russia engaged in activities that could not possibly be associated simply with the crisis in South Ossetia," she said.

U.S. officials said they warned Saakashvili not to provoke Russia militarily by sending Georgian troops into South Ossetia and they had ruled out any U.S. military action to defend Georgia.

Rice spoke after Bush's announcement that U.S. aircraft and ships would deliver humanitarian aid to victims of the fighting.
Bush and Rice warned Russia not to interfere with the delivery of humanitarian aid, noting that Tuesday's French-brokered cease-fire allows for the delivery of international relief, and expressed concern over reports that Russian units were continuing to advance into Georgian cities despite Tuesday's cease-fire.

"We expect Russia to meet its commitment to cease all military activities in Georgia, and we expect all Russian forces that entered Georgia in recent days to withdraw from that country," Bush said.
Rice will travel to France and then head to Tbilisi, Bush said.

Next week, Rice will travel to NATO headquarters in Brussels, Belgium.
Russia's move into Georgia came amid a struggle between the United States and Russia for influence within Eastern Europe. From Russia's point of view, American support for Georgia is a direct threat to its influence.

By striking heavily in Georgia, Moscow is sending a signal to other former Soviet republics, such as Ukraine and Moldova, said Sarah Mendelson, the director of the Human Rights and Security Initiative at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

"If I were a neighbor of Russia and I saw what Russia had done in Georgia, I would be very nervous," Mendelson said. "I think those countries that are leaning toward the West are very nervous today."
CNN

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by titorite
reply to post by Digital_Reality

 

So basicly , If I understand this development correctly, The Russians are saying the Decrees of the Ukrainians mean nothing to Russia? That they will Dock where they want and to hell with the Ukraine. Is that about right?

Of course they claim violations of previous agreement by Ukraine, which they think gives them the right to deviate from their part of the deal. In reality, it's pretty preposterous that Russians must (according to the contract) report to Ukraine the destination of the ships wishing to leave the harbour -- military secrecy goes down the drain in that arrangement.

One of my family members is a former Ukranian sailor (pretty nationalistic at that) and even he agrees this is bull.

As far as I understood Ukraine was preventing the ships RETURNING to Sevastapol.