Russia/Georgia Situation News & Updates

We don't have any definitive proof of any of the assertions being made re: propaganda from either side. Arguing about hypotheses isn't going to convince one another of our respective points of view, nor are we going to help elevate this thread by doing so (the purpose of which is to keep people updated with respect to what's happening.)

Is it likely that both sides are using propaganda? Of course. That makes it all the more difficult to determine what's real and what isn't, though. Arguing about it won't solve the problem, and frankly, no one in this thread has any means of knowing with 100% certainty what's true and what isn't anyway.

Let's all just take a deep breath and keep reporting the news as we find it. We all know we have to exercise judgment and take into account the possibility of propaganda anytime we read or watch anything in the news. Arguing about which aspects of said news are propaganda versus real isn't a productive debate in my opinion, because we have no proof. Moreover, in a way, calling one another ignorant because we don't share the same view of the situation is an unnecessary escalation of rhetoric not very much unlike what we've seen from both sides in the real conflict going on in the Caucasus.

Let's all remember that we have the same goal - to determine the truth - and refrain from jumping to conclusions, arguing, or beating each other up for seeing things differently. This is the second such plea I've made in this thread, not that my voice should carry any weight of course.

[edit on 8/13/2008 by AceWombat04]

I'll make it brief and focus on the news we haven't already heard (all sources in Russian). I am not providing an opinion, just stating what the news say:


RUSSIA'S LATEST NEWS:


Humanitarian aid reaches most of S. Ossetia. Most of S. Ossetian population is still evacuated from their homes, and special temporary refugee camps are being set up for them. Over 31,000 S. Ossetians are currently refugees inside Russia, including over 7,000 children. Displaced civlians are now receiving monetary aid from the Russian government, and more is planned to be distributed.

Supplied humanitarian aid by Russia: food - 171 tons. Clean water - 114 tons. Medical supplies and equipment - 47 tons. 42 electrical power supply units. Clothing and basic supplies - 79 tons. Temporary dwellings - 750. In addition to this volunteer and paid Russian surgeons and medical personel are in Tskhinvalli assisting the wounded.

cominf.org...



President Medvedev insists that before the final cease fire - that Georgia must reach a peace agreement with S. Ossetia. He stresses that this is the most important piece of the agreement, more so than UN resolutions. Untill Georgia accepts this there is no real cease fire - and this was decided on with French president Sarkozy.

lenta.ru...



Russian troops handover Gori and the surrounding region to Georgian police forces. Georgian police is now back in the city reaching an agreement with the Russian military. Russian general Borisov announced that as agreed upon with Georgian police and military, a small contingent of Russian forces will remain near Gori for two days to monitor the handover. Russian delegates state that while Georgians were gone there was no looting of any kind, and Russian forces handed out food and water to the few remaining civilians.

lenta.ru...



Russian delegate-invite Rogozin in NATO stated that Russia-NATO relations can no longer remain as they were before the conflict. His reasons for stating that are that NATO is biased towards Georgia, and has ignored Georgia's attack and murder of civilians in S. Ossetia. Rogozin hopes however that this worsening of relations results in no new conflicts. he also blamed CNN and BBC for failing to follow the international media's standards for reporting on conflicts from an unbiased point view.

lenta.ru...



Following is a long article posted on one Russia's main media websites. It talks about "War from the opposite side". Basically it states how Georgian civilians have suffered and how Georgia sees the conflict. Also talks about Russian reporters interviewing Georgians and documenting the views of displaced Georgians. It appears to be fairly accurate to what we heard here from CNN's and SKY's side.

lenta.ru...



An article on how Russia sees the conflict affecting the American race for President. It documents McCain's and Obama's speeches and quotes on the conflict. I have no time to translate it now, but you can do it with an online auto- translator. The articled is titled: the "Failure during an exam".

lenta.ru...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These articles are in English from Russian sources:


Russia's Lavrov slams Bush statement on S.Ossetia

"I listened to George Bush's statement ... and was surprised ... the facts he cited are untrue," Lavrov said, echoing earlier denials by Russian officials that Russian troops were not advancing on Georgia's capital Tbilisi. "We understand that the U.S. is concerned about the fate of this project, but the United States will have to choose between defending its prestige over a virtual project or real partnership which requires joint action," the minister said

en.rian.ru...



Russia had no choice but counterattack in S.Ossetia - Gorbachev

"Russia had to respond. To accuse it of aggression against 'small, defenseless Georgia' is not just hypocritical but shows a lack of humanity," he said in the article.
...

Gorbachev told the paper that the Georgian authorities could only undertake the offensive "with the perceived support" of a much more powerful force - an apparent reference to the United States, which has trained Georgian troops and backed the country's bid to join NATO.

...

"Of course, peace in the Caucasus is in everyone's interest. But it is simply common sense to recognize that Russia is rooted there by common geography and centuries of history. Russia is not seeking territorial expansion, but it has legitimate interests in this region," The Guardian reported him as saying.

en.rian.ru...



Russia slams Ukraine decree on Black Sea Fleet as anti-Russian

"The new directives are aimed at creating a serious obstacle for the day-to-day operations of the Fleet and contradict the 1997 agreements between Russia and Ukraine on the status and terms of the Russian Black Sea Fleet's presence on Ukrainian territory," the ministry said in a statement.

en.rian.ru...



Russian peacekeepers remove weapons from Georgian arms depot

the peacekeepers were trying to clear the area close to the conflict zone of weapons and military hardware to guarantee the security and safety of the civilian population. He once again denied that Russian troops are continuing to advance inside Georgia.

en.rian.ru...



Russia mourns for victims of humanitarian disaster in S Ossetia

“To express grief for the victims and condolences to their relatives and dear ones the president ordered declaring August 13, 2008 as a day of mourning in the Russian Federation. All state flags will be lowered to half-mast. Cultural establishments and television and radio broadcasting companies have been advised to cancel all entertainment events and programs.”

www.itar-tass.com...


Sorry about all the sources in one post - I did not have much time to gather this info untill right now.

Originally posted by Randy Echo
we have an operational missile defense system that is in use and has been tested, missles really arent a threat anymore, one or two may get through but the place you call russia would get nailed with about 499 neutron bombs, these bombs kill people , and have no fallout, they leave structure standing, then georgia could walk in and take over

so no im not worried about a nuclear holocaust, only ones to watch for are the ones they handcarried in here, and we have em over there too,

you could probally kiss new york, washing dc, chicago goodbye, but that is if we havent already found these contingent bombs and got rid of them already

Dangerous comfort. Our missile-shield will protect us scantly. How do I know? Because all Ive heard is it is fraught with bugs and inaccuracies. So when they (TPTB) say we are ready, that the missile-shield works, I believe them about as far as I can throw Dick Cheney.

LOL i mean i guess the situation IS that close if one side wants to lie about whats happnes so that EVERYONE can die. But that makes no sense. That actually could have been done earlier in this conflict if you think about it.

Originally posted by wolfmanjack

Originally posted by princeofpeace
I understand your concern, but step back from the pipe. You jumped a WHOLE lot of scenarios to come to your 1 nuke conclusion.

Yes we know what just one nuke would mean. Do YOU have any idea what it would take for either side to get to the point where that 1 nuke was to be used? Believe me, it would take a lot more than just Georgia. We would need to see a WHOLE lot more events unfold first.

Dont push the panic button just yet bruh.

Originally posted by wolfmanjackThis situation is a hair trigger from full out nuclear war.. Do you people understand what the hell would happen if just 1 nuclear weapon was used on ether side? Do ?!!!!!!!!

What it would take? .. Lets see

1. Russia has stated if the US uses precision bombs IE Airstrikes on russian troops Russia would use Tactical nuclear weapons.

So quite frankly that means we the world are 1 air strike away from nuclear war.

I do not think the world has been this close to nuclear war ever... The fingers are hovering over the nuclear button mate..

Yea .. i might be jumping the gun a bit here.. But the situation IS this serious. And people NEED to understand this fact.. This IS a hell of a lot more important to the world then a lot of people are acting like.

Edit.
You know what .. I hope im just nutz.. I hope your right.. I hope to hell im full of hot air .. I really really do hope i have misjudged the situation. Because if i have not ... Well nice knowing you..

[edit on 13-8-2008 by wolfmanjack]

when it all comes down, Mr Putin has to ask himself "Can I win This?" and then the answer absent the saber rattling will comeback to him like a bullwhip because with good intelligence he knows he is really the one backing himself into a corner, he is going to have the whole world crawling up his rectum if he doesn't turn around right now , if he goes to the capitol he commits political suicide with the world, and his mens lives will pay for his mistake when they get overwhelmed, after all he attacks us, this will be it, we won't stop until that whole nation is toppled, we after all are the same americans that stood on omaha beach, and the same americans that took iwo jima. It isn't a race anymore, and Putin knows it.

It is like dirty harry standoff, do you feel lucky Putin?

The only thing that makes any sense out of all this as far as this spreading to a US/Russian conflict (because come on, its just TOO choreographed) is if BOTH Bush and Putin have agreed to this. Coincidence it started while at the Olympics together?

And don't forget Wolf, both the US and Russian politicians have Shelters built into Mountains and can go hundreds of feet below ground. A 3-year supply of food, water, and shelter from the outside world.

They have protection (at least initially), while many of the world citizens do not.

Russia wasn't able to keep up much of the Nuclear maintenance after the Cold War. I'm sure they have some, but nothing close to before.

They would definitely be on the bruising end of that one.

The US also has more Nuclear submarines that can strike from the Sea. Russia has these too, but would have to get in range.

There's plenty of instances where the world was close to nuclear war just by sheer accident. From signals bouncing off the moon, putting in the wrong training program tape into a computer, all sorts of hair raising stuff.

But... Everyone knows that nuclear weapons are not in anyone's interest. America and Russia have tens of thousands between them, and both sides know no one would win.

There's no ideological war in the present day.

I'd say a nuclear conflict is more possible between India and Pakistan. That's a tinderbox.

reply to post by jetxnet


I realize you are skeptical of anything the Russians might have to say regarding the conflict... but, how many people have to state what happened to them before you'll start to believe that something the Russians are saying is true?
The whole country?

We saw the footage of the Georgian rockets being fired at Tshinvale earlier on. They targeted that city intentionally. It's not like Georgia can say "Oh, we thought it was a military installation..." or, "the whole city was made of enemy combatants" that WAS a civilian city.

As for the numbers, considering how long they shelled that city... 1,500 sounds pretty lenient. I'm surprised less than 3,000 people were killed.

You can say the eye witness accounts are all propaganda if you like, that's your opinion, but we have footage, reports from all 3 sides declaring the shelling of Tshinvale, and a sieged city as proof in the aftermath.

... anyways, It's late, news is coming in slower than ever now, so there's no point to trying to stay awake any longer.
Night all.

[edit on 13-8-2008 by johnsky]

reply to post by maloy


It is interesting that Russians have such access to information of the circumstances that have brought us to where we are today upon which to ascertain where the fault lies . As opposed to other nations that are only told what to think . It is a mirror image of the current (mis)conception .

from all the weapons research threads that I have read on this site, we have so much new oh so expensive weapons systems that we have pumped trillions of dollars into and so top secret it would be better if Russia just went home, sure I know alot of it sounds incredible, but rumor is we have attack stealth craft that will fly almost 8000 miles an hour, and new particle beam technology that will fry anything that is airborne. Not to mention all the rumors of having a allied ET force that might come into play.

Things are different today, and the world would appreciate it if Russia just goes home.

I think the message from the USA is

we dont care who started it, its time to pack up and go home

You can say the eye witness accounts are all propaganda if you like, that's your opinion, but we have footage, reports from all 3 sides declaring the shelling of Tshinvale, and a sieged city as proof in the aftermath.

Hi John, yes we do, but there are alot of angles to war and provacation. For example, in Iraq, many times the insurgents have killed civilians and bombed hospitals etc. and claimed the US did it.

Don't be so quick to believe what you mentioned either. You are only getting the Russian Foreign Ministries account of the number of dead and "genicidal claims".

These same Russian backed "separatists" are now looting, raping and killing in Gori. You have multiple accounts on that too, just not the Russian account of course.

While my post was a bit alarmist i wanted to express to people here that this situation is dangerous to the entire world.

Everyone .. Needs to step back and realize that peoples lives are not worth the price we will pay if things get out of hand.

That is my point people...... A persons life is not worth all the oil in the world or all the money in the world.

From what i have read online and seen on TV it would seem all 3 countries involved in this mess have forgotten this.

Nothing is worth the price in human lives.. The only time war should happen is when a country is killing its own citizens and that countries people are unable to over through its government.

If this goes to all out war you can blame two folks. Bush and Putin. they have been in cahoots on this for a while.

Deleted

[edit on 14-8-2008 by maloy]

I think you're over-reacting a little wolfmann. No doubt the situation is tenuous, and we are in territory we haven't been in in almost 20 years, but we've been here before. An old game has simply been restarted. It appears to me that there have been major miscalculation on all sides, Russia, Georgia, and the US, and I'm sure that the implications of this will reverberate through the forseable future.

I imagine that Poland, the Baltics, and Ukraine in particluar are really really nervous. And other former Soviet sattellites are casting a wary eye east. They will, I'm sure be drawn closer to the West through this.

I never agreed with expanding NATO past Poland and Hungary, but the US admin has been hell bent on surrounding Russia with the "Missle Shield". I really was never scared of the "rogue state ICBM", but with a no longer hibernating bear, SDI is probably a good idea.

reply to post by Gun Totin Gerbil


As I said Russian public radio station Echo of Moscow has been heavily critizing both our own government as well as Georgia's and U.S.'s government. I have heard many well-known Russian intellectual elite on the station today presenting their side of the story. A decent number are anti-Kremlin and voiced criticizm of Medvedev and Putin.

The TV is very biased still though. But Echo of Moscow is very well known and very popular radio station. Many Russians who do not have a TV set can still listen to radio and understand much of what is going on. And many who do have a TV choose to listen to Echo of Moscow instead.

the civil war in the united states started a month before the Lincoln was to take an oath to be president, all the southern states started pulling out of the union one by one, and the first shots fired were by the people who pulled away from the union at Fort Sumter, the fort came under a naval barrage and had to surrender, well the tattered stars and stripes from that fallen fort is what strengthened the Norths resolve to win the war, when it was put on display, it drove the north to win by any means to save the union, and well history has it that the north won that war.

what does this have to do with things, imagine the capitol in Georgia as our new fort Sumter, and the world as the union(nato)

whatever happens in this place will only strengthen the USA and the WOrlds resolve to end Russian tyranny once and for all.

just a thought...

Good posts Maloy and Jef.

While I think Wolfman is showing some warrented concern, the longer Nukes are in the world, the much greater chance they will be used. So long as they're around, it's inevitable they are used.

The US and Russia (the only two with them in the beginning) had a responsibility for containing the weapons and not letting dictators, terrorists etc. get access to them. Once China got them though, they armed NK's Nuclear program and NK armed Pakistan's etc.

Now Iran wants them. Because Iran wants them, 11 other nations in the ME who fear Iran want them now too.

It's becoming somewhat expotential and must somehow be successfully contained or stopped.

The current US and Russia tensions are escalating this situation to new heights.



[edit on 13-8-2008 by jetxnet]