Russia/Georgia Situation News & Updates

What is the latest on the front?Russia advancing on the capital,people running for there lives.

reply to post by all2human



Sorry, I didn't mean to sound blunt with respect to your concerns for Ukraine.

You do have a point. However Russia might arguably look more closely at Central Asian republics of the FSU, which, while not small in size, are militarily weak. I certainly hope not, though. That would be madness. The area is of strategic importance to the US with respect to operations Afghanistan. It is also increasingly important to Chinese commerce.

My personal update:

I have been gone for a while, and now that I am back I find that not much has been changed in the last 6 hours. In a quickly changing conflict like this it is awkward. Of course it is night now in Georgia, and the action has calmed down somewhat.

I have access to Russian television news, and a live satellite feed of CNN, BBC, Fox, MSNBC, and CBS at home (yes Putin doesn't sit near my custom sat dish and block the signals from the West like some of you may think). The news feeds are very very different between Russian channels and Western media - that would be an understatement. I have never seen this much propaganda used by both sides - it is almost frightening. There is simply no middle ground in the press. It's either pro-Russia, or pro-Georgia. What we see happening here is an information war on a larger scale than an actual war. Sort of like what happened when Israel intervened in Lebanon, but on a larger scale.

I admit that Russian news are full of their own propaganda and are totally biased. However at least they bring up some factual stuff, and have been monitoring the conditions in S. Ossetia longer than any Western source (back from July). By the way Russian news report everything coming from Georgian Info Ministry - but they rather make fun of the reports than treat them as definitively factual.

Western media appears to have a single voice today. A voice that mirrors the reports of the Georgian government and its American masters. Never before have I seen such a troubling phenomenon in the Western media. The story is told from one point of view - and so are the facts. Everything else is brushed off entirely, or mentioned as a side note. Almost no mention of how this started - when Georgia killed over a thousand innocent civilians in Tskhinvalli. THAT IS OVER ONE THOUSAND. LET ME REITTERATE THAT AGAIN - OVER 3% OF S. OSSETIAN POPULATION WAS KILLED IN ONE SINGLE DAY - BY GEORGIAN ARMY - BY SAAKASHVILLI.

But the Western media isn't concerned about that. When 14 students die in a school shooting its national headlines for a month. When a major American ally murders over 1,000 people who can't defend themselves - that's not news worthy.




No there is something else more newsworthy - Western media is shouting alarm - America's ally is being invaded from all sides. Tbilisi is a garrison under attack. The Russian bear is sitting in the Caucasus and pounding Georgia to the ground. Saakashvilli says Gori is occupied; he shouts that most of Georgia is taken by the enemy; he pleads for help; he yells that Russians will ethnically cleanse Georgians; he runs for cover from evil Russian jets out to get him; we will not surrender he then announces; he calls for cease fire. WATCH AMERICA - WATCH AND BELIEVE AND LEARN. CNN AND SKY NEWS CAN'T LIE - HOW CAN THEY - THEY ARE FREE AND NON BIASED. Headlines in the West scream INVASION. Georgia is falling.


Now let me just say one word - WHAT


WHAT is really going on? Where is the huge Russian invasion force? Wherever Saakashvilli says it is? Did Gori really fall, or did the Georgians just leave? Was Senaki even occupied, or did the Russians just destroy the air field and helicopters there? How many Russian troops and tanks are within Georgian non-disputed territory? Surely someone can film them?

We have people convinced that Georgia is falling and Russia is invading in full force. We have people spreading panic that Tbilisi is being surrounded and is ready to be stormed.


Deny the ignorance you say? You are being led by your nose by one man who can barely put a sentence of English together - Saakashvilli. He says Russians are in Gori? They must be. He says Tbilisi is about to be attacked? It must be. He says Georgian troops have ceased fire? They must have.

Embrace the ignorance I say.



Reality:

Where is the concrete proof that Russians are in Gori and heading towards Tbilisi? Where is the proof that there was a mass incursion by Russia, besides small scale operations in Senaki and Zugdidi? Where is the burning gun, or the burning tank turret in the case? Where? Up Saakashvilli's you-know-what?

Yes Russians intervened on Georgia's soil I admit - they shouldn't have. But an invasion? Preparation for storming of Tbilisi? Has everyone lost their mind? Does logic no longer prevail and everyone is putting on their helmets preparing for 10 kinds of hell to rain down on Tbilisi?

Perhaps we should stop hypothesizing that Russia is attacking - and ask ourselves why is the Western media raising alarm before proof - in a single voice? A voice that echoes Bush and Cheney?




The truth is - it appears that a massive anti-Russian coalition is forming in the West, assured that Georgia is lost without their help. No sight of Russian tanks yet - but lets be sure and get our hordes ready just in case. Politicians are ready for war - without any proof (as if that is the first time this has happened)

What if there is no mass Russian attack? What if Tbilisi is not in any danger? What if the Russians are only pursuing the Georgian troops to make sure an attack on Tskhinvalli is not renewed?



We are hearing the alarm from the media a day before the fire starts. And in this case the fire may start because of the alarm - not the other way around.



So please let us wait for further confirmation from the conflict zone - concrete confirmation from reporters. I admit my predictions were wrong the moment Russians entered Zagdidi and Senaki. I do not approve of their actions, and am a terrible speculator - a propagandist if you will. But so far I have stuck to factual news, or to rumors which I stated were unconfirmed. Much of the news I posted first turned out to be true. There are no facts pointing that Russians are readying a storm on Tbilisi or are planning an occupation of Georgia.

I am not saying this will not happen for sure. But what I am saying is that we are all jumping on a trampoline of rumors - a trampoline held up by Western news sources.

This article says Russia has rejected a draft U.N. resolution on cease-fire, and also says Georgian Security Council Secretary, Alexander Lomaia, has said that Russia has not occupied Gori.

Georgia initially claimed Russian soldiers had occupied Gori, the main town close to Moscow-backed South Ossetia, but this was denied by Russia's defence ministry, though most of Gori's inhabitants had fled leaving it a ghost town.

But the secretary of Georgia's security council, Alexander Lomaia, told AFP later: "The Russians are staying near Gori. They did not enter the city itself."

News of the Russian drive into Georgia comes as Russia's ambassador to the UN rejected a proposed Western draft resolution in the Security Council on Monday that would call for an immediate truce between Russia and Georgia and for the mutual withdrawal of their forces from the conflict zone.

www.afp.com...

Originally posted by mattguy404

Originally posted by on_yur_6
I whole heartedly disagree. The only reason Russia is opposed to a missle defense system is it would help prevent what they are doing now.

Eh?

Then why would the US be opposed to having similar Russian systems and bombers stationed in Cuba.

They wouldn't like it to say the least, and neither should Russia have to like having missile defense systems in their backyard.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by mattguy404]

There is a large difference in the offensive weapons just a few miles from our country. Missle defense systems prevent an aggressor from harming you not the other way around.

Now, when Kennedy had to deal with a similar problem in Cuba, he did the right thing and removed the nukes on Russia's backdoor. Maybe Putin thinks he can get away with something similar by using Cuba as a bargaining chip again.

Down the rabbit hole we go

www.rense.com...

What is alarming is not what is coming out of Saakashvilli's mouth - but the implications those unconfirmed rumors have for the world.

U.S. - Russian relations and Europe - Russian relations are being driven head first into the ground. We could see progress that has been made fall back a decade or more. Western politicians are one by one pledging help for Saakashvilli. U.S. is starting to sound more and more militaristic and angry. The Western media has buried Russia in a pile of crep. Heck - we could see a true proxy war - one that didn't and doesn't have to start.

All based on what? Rumors?


Could we really be seeing an information war against Russia, rather than an invasion of Georgia? Could this be a big farce? Could the West turn Russia's peacekeeping actions against Russia to make it out to be the aggressor? Yes. Very much so. It has happened before. No one is proposing this scenerio here on ATS.

Sure it makes sense to believe Russia is invading Georgia - based on what you read in the press. It appears to be true - no doubt. But what about the other scenerio? Think.

We might see a war that didn't have to happen. A war that happened because of rumors and speculation. WMDs in Iraq were the burning gun. Today Russians invading Georgia are the burning gun. Think.


The easiest thing we can do is sit back and prepare for the storm of Tbilisi and await the bear. The harder thing would be to think.

Take a step back.

Look at the whole picture. Yes - borders and all. Even the wall its hanging on.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by maloy]

reply to post by maloy


What evidence is there that Georgian forces "invaded" their own territory, slaughtered 1,000 of its own citizens because they were ethnic Russians, filling buildings with such people and burning them alive?

That sounds like propaganda if ever I heard it.

reply to post by maloy


In my opinion that scenario is at least in the realm of the possible. Don't get me wrong. I'm not ready to commit to that hypothesis above the reported story of the Georgian attack and Russian retaliation, but it is possible in my opinion.

In fact, if there's one thing I have learned during this conflict more so than during any other geopolitical crisis in recent years, it is that governments really do care what ordinary citizens think, and will do what they feel they must to sway their opinions. Why do I think this? Because distinguished diplomats and foreign leaders are going to have intelligence updates and classified information pertaining to a crisis like this, which should be far more comprehensive and factual than the unsubstantiated rumors being reported in the media. Yet their public statements mirror those media reports almost entirely - on both sides.

That's why I keep pointing out to people statements by eye witnesses, reporters on the ground, etc. as opposed to statements made only by government officials of the two belligerent parties engaged in conflict with one another at this time. The fact that their statements contradict reports from on the ground - on both sides - speaks volumes, and is greatly disappointing to me.

[edit on 8/11/2008 by AceWombat04]

Originally posted by pause4thought
What evidence is there that Georgian forces "invaded" their own territory, slaughtered 1,000 of its own citizens because they were ethnic Russians, filling buildings with such people and burning them alive?

Read the first page of this thread please. Then read the second page of this thread.

Then go tune to Russian news to see the charred bodies and the wounded in S. Ossetia, and footage of Georgian artillery barrage.

Don't have Russian news? Well thats that. You only get the Western part of the picture - sorry.

I rely on factual sources when saying that about Georgia's first attack, not rumors. Sources that have been confirmed by Russia, by Georgia (again read the first page - Georgia said it is attacking itself), by BBC (before they dropped it), by reporters, by witnesses, by victims.

Now lets see all the sources above confirm that Russia is invading Georgia.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by maloy]

reply to post by maloy


You have some very good points,i won't argue but i don't think Russia's regieme change comment helped world opinion

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by pause4thought
What evidence is there that Georgian forces "invaded" their own territory, slaughtered 1,000 of its own citizens because they were ethnic Russians, filling buildings with such people and burning them alive?

Read the first page of this thread please. Then read the second page of this thread.

Then go tune to Russian news to see the charred bodies and the wounded in S. Ossetia, and footage of Georgian artillery barrage.

Don't have Russian news? Well thats that. You only get the Western part of the picture - sorry.

This is hardly a defence for lack of evidence.

Its like saying I have proof that Im the earthly incarnation of the flying spaghetti monster. Oh, you can't get ahold of the documents that proove it? Too bad, just had to take my word on my divine pastaness.

Russian troops do not plan to advance on Tbilisi - Moscow
Moscow has denied Georgia's assertion that Russian troops are moving in on the capital Tbilisi. The allegation was made by Georgia's Ministry of Defence. Russia has also announced its troops have left the Georgian town of Senaki, having secured it from attacking South Ossetia.

russiatoday.com...

Could someone please provide me with a link, from an independent source, confirming Georgia committed "genocide" specifically in the region of, Tskhinvalli.

Originally posted by I3LiP
This is hardly a defence for lack of evidence.

Its like saying I have proof that Im the earthly incarnation of the flying spaghetti monster. Oh, you can't get ahold of the documents that proove it? Too bad, just had to take my word on my divine pastaness.

I post again:

I rely on factual sources when saying that about Georgia's first attack, not rumors. Sources that have been confirmed by Russia, by Georgia (again read the first page - Georgia said it is attacking itself), by BBC (before they dropped it), by reporters, by witnesses, by victims.

reply to post by maloy


Vy, ksozheleniyu, prosto ne ponyali, chto zapadnye lyudi tozhye smotryat russkiye peredachi.

And the fact that there are dead people lying around proves nothing other than that conflict has taken place. I say again, where is the evidence for the Russian claims that Georgia tortured and slaughtered masses of its own citizens, such that Russia was justified in coming to their rescue?

reply to post by maloy


Excelent post Maloy...

The Propaganda spewing from both sides is getting worse by the day...

You would think they are covering 2 totaly diffrent things...

The Truth is somewhere between what Russia Today is saying, and what CNN is saying...


This is the oddest conflict i have EVER seen/studied...

Are both sides Right? Are both sides wroung?

What would make Russia RIght? Wroung?
What about Georgia?

This place is a FREAKIN mess... and by definition, we are just not going to see it the same way... The World Doesnt recognize South Ossetia or Georgias OTHER break-away regions, BUT, Russia does...

The Georgians(So it apears), made the first move, on the South Ossetian Capitol... Russia then Rolled into Georgia to defend its own citizens that lived in Georgia...

Is georgia in the right for wanted to take its terrirotry back? or wroung for killing 'civilians'...

Is Russia in the right for wanted to protect her citizens? Or wroung for entering Georgia Terrirotry?



Are both in the Right, or both wroung, or are they both right AND wroung...




Anyways... The western world has satalights that can ZOOM in and get clear pics of the area... The US goverment knows weather or not RUssia is moving within Georgia... They should be able to see a Collum of tanks rolling in, and thousands of soilders on the march... or they should be able to find thier encampment...

Either way, the West knows the Truth... Not the media, but the goverment...

If russia was on the verge of invading The Georgian Capitiol, the US would know about it before the Georgains...

reply to post by Founding


cominf.org...


Good luck with the translations - I am not translating all that again. I did throughout this threa.

Oh and the english version is far shorter than the Russian version.


Also liveleak and various live feeds of Russia Today Tv have tons of footage of Tskhinvalli.

Georgia itself acknowledged that it is launching an attack on South Ossetia - it was official.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by maloy]

I doubt they will be stupid enough to invade Tbilisi, they just want to completely seal off South Ossestia.
If you look at the map they would need some or all of Gori to do this.
Look at the kind of semi border around it already like a province border.
They will need to secure all of this.

www.lonelyplanet.com...

reply to post by TKainZero


Not wanting to be a grammar Nazi but if you're gonna use it so many times spell it right. :p

Wroung should be spelt Wrong.


Aside from this I think its clear that while Georgian's did shell an urban population and that most likely civillians were harmed in the process this presents nothing more than an unfortunate side effect of modern military actions and NOT a purposeful targeting let alone a genocide of ossetian ethnics.