Iraq Unloading WMD Into Syria.

So I suppose this kinda takes the wind out of Jakomo's sails eh?

Artillery shells found by Polish troops in Iraq definitely contained the deadly nerve agent cyclosarin, Poland's military has said.

"The results of ... analysis confirmed that chemical agent GB-GF, cyclosarin, was found in the shells," the Polish-led unit of the multinational force in Iraq said in a statement on Friday.

"Beyond doubt these are shells from the 1980-1988 period, of the type used against Kurds and during the Iraq-Iran war."

Poland said on Thursday its soldiers found 17 Grad rockets and two mortar shells filled with chemicals in late June and that U.S. experts had carried out tests on the weapons.

U.S. officials confirmed late on Thursday that such shells were being tested but said further tests were continuing because initial findings could be misleading. U.S. officials were not immediately available to comment on the Polish statement.

Link

Considering the whole of the Middle East is a cauldron of intrigue, plots, counter plots, and backstabbing is it not logical to assume everyone there has their own plan or agenda?

For example, could it not be that Bush Light already knows all he needs to know about WMD, from who to where? If this is true, then the next logical step would be to use this info to further your purposes such as winning an election by releasing incriminating evidence as needed or using the info as a pretext for the next war or both.

It is a fact that there are an abundance of WMD�s in the countries of Syria, Iran, maybe Egypt, Libya, and others, what and how many are probably known by our intelligence community. It is reasonable to assume that Bush would act or react only to better serve the neocon interest of a Pax Americanna and his re-election.

The same could be said of the rest of the players in the Middle East, in that they could be watching and waiting for the right moment to either embrace America or attack Israel and possibly even Americas troops, should the opportunity for victory via WMD occur. Remember, nothing is certain in war but death.

While the Arabs are content to war upon each other in National, tribal, or Islamic faction wars, be warned, they always keep their eye on Israel, their sworn enemy. The leaders of that region are by and large, educated in the west and are not dummies. Though they murder each other today, tomorrow they would unite against Israel in a heartbeat. It appears to me there is something like a cat and mouse game going on or maybe everyone is just waiting for someone to blink.

Ghostwolfemoon

SeekerOf & Agent47 - Great job of defending yourselves on the WMD issue. The opposition doesn't seem to know when they are outnumbered by a smaller party. I don't know how you two managed to keep up with everything, the posts were coming in faster than I could read them.

[edit on 27-7-2005 by Astronomer68]

Wow. This thread has grown since my last visit.

I find it interesting how, despite all investigations into Iraq's WMD programs showing significant degradation since the Gulf War, especially his nuclear programs, that Saddam is still believed to have been smuggling weapons into Syria. From where? From what plant, as a part of what WMD program?

You guys are not holding your investigations to any common standard of acceptable evidence. The most you have is conjecture, that it *may* have happened, or those suspicious-looking barrels *may* have had some illegal chemicals in them. I doubt they did, but regardless, "may" is a statement that shows conjecture. There should be concrete proof of these claims if we are to invade another country and put tens of thousands of more lives at stake.

Possibly the first noticeable person to warn that Iraqi weapons of mass destruction could go to Syria was former UN inspector Richard Butler. He warned that when he worked in Iraq between 1997 and 1999, he saw intelligence indicating that suspicious containers were routinely moved in and out of Iraq from Syria, and that there was evidence they contained banned materials. Few realized what an impact Syria's role would play later in the future.

Where is this "evidence"? Have it handy?

Intelligence gathering, including defector testimony, indicated that even in August 2002, before Saddam let UN inspectors back in, indicated that Iraq was still receiving WMD components and materials through Syria. [5] Around this same time, Iraqi officials who defected to Europe in 2002 claimed that Iraq had ordered three shipments of Scud missiles from the Czech Republic, using Syria. Thinking the missiles and components were going to Syria, the Czechs had no problem supplying. The defectors say the Czechs were tricked, and that the first shipment of missiles had already arrived in 2002 in Iraq. [6]

This, I would believe, and it seems valid as there are apparently more specific claims and there are also sources. Iraq violated the terms of its sanctions with some of the missiles that it dealed with, but these missiles hardly qualify as WMDs, let alone any reason to invade the freaking country and kill tens of thousands of people, at least.

The claim Bush was making, was that Iraq was a continuing "threat" and was continuing to develop its WMD programs and produce WMDs, as well as a nuclear program, and that there was evidence that Saddam had killed more of his people, etc. Pretty much anything to get us to support a war there.

What we found, was that his programs were in fact degraded, and the only WMDs he had were the ones sold to him (likely by our own government) during the Iran-Iraq War, laying around in junk heaps, and extremely primitive compared to modern WMD tech. Pretty much a missile with gas in it. Not very complicated.

To further matters, at least one of these missiles were triggered, set up as booby traps, and they didn't even work anymore. They were useless. Laying around in junk heaps from a war about 2 decades earlier.

So what about his programs? Degraded from all available evidence, including the in-depth Duelfer Report. Nuclear? Must've been a joke. So where are these plants, these programs, that he allegedly made these weapons that he allegedly sent to Syria? Reports of "maybe" or "might" or "may" are not only uncredible, but don't even come to any sort of solid conclusion. You might want to stick to higher standards of evidence before waging war where human beings are killed. It's sort of the right thing to do.

Like I said.. provide something other than conjecture here if you want to make a point. There are too many lives at stake to be buying into propoganda, which is all that this is until you prove otherwise. These countries are not a threat to the United States in the least.

Well it has been a couple months since I've even logged into ATS and longer since I've read up on this thread. From the start I've made two points, one being that trucks routinely traveled between Syria and Iraq leading up to the war and the second was more of a accusation that these trucks held weapons banned by the UN. The two points came closer together after the failed attempt to carry out a chemical attack on Jordan was revealed to have originated in Syria.

Now returning to my first point I present an article from the Washington Times

Saddam agents on Syria border helped move banned materials


By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Saddam Hussein periodically removed guards on the Syrian border and replaced them with his own intelligence agents who supervised the movement of banned materials between the two countries, U.S. investigators have discovered.
The recent discovery by the Bush administration's Iraq Survey Group (ISG) is fueling speculation, but is not proof, that the Iraqi dictator moved prohibited weapons of mass destruction (WMD) into Syria before the March 2003 invasion by a U.S.-led coalition.

Now yes it isn't direct proof that say a shipment of Anthrax slipped over the border on Febuary 16th 2003 but it still is interesting to note some things in the article.

Two defense sources told The Washington Times that the ISG has interviewed Iraqis who told of Saddam's system of dispatching his trusted Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) to the border, where they would send border inspectors away.
The shift was followed by the movement of trucks in and out of Syria suspected of carrying materials banned by U.N. sanctions. Once the shipments were made, the agents would leave and the regular border guards would resume their posts.
"If you leave it to border guards, then the border guards could stop the trucks and extract their 10 percent, just like the mob would do," said a Pentagon official who asked not to be named. "Saddam's family was controlling the black market, and it was a good opportunity for them to make money."

Now the ISG isn't Condi Rice or Bush Lite but a joint task force composed of Pentagon and CIA assests. This article combined with the earlier articles concerning Bashar Assad's brother smuggling guns and ammunition into Iraq show how strong the black market connection between Iraq and Syria was/is . Now critics will come here and ask for proof that the WMD's existed and without boots on the ground in Syria I'm sorry but I can't provide photos/diagrams etc but what I can do is outline the clear cut lines of communication/transportation and money connecting the former regime in Iraq and Syria's current "president". It isn't a home run but I thought I'd toss a little more bark on the fire in my return to ATS.

Saddam agents on Syria border helped move banned materials.

Back with some Old Evidence?

Frankyl the Bush administration's Iraq Survey Group (ISG) will find ANYTHING that the Bush administration wants them to.

WMD's in Iraq? You got'em!

WMD's in Syria? Sure!

WMD's in Iran? No Problem!

Who's Next?

Originally posted by Souljah
Back with some Old Evidence?

Frankyl the Bush administration's Iraq Survey Group (ISG) will find ANYTHING that the Bush administration wants them to.

WMD's in Iraq? You got'em!

WMD's in Syria? Sure!

WMD's in Iran? No Problem!

Who's Next?

Once again this isn't a bipartisan rant trying to justify the war. The ISG is made of federal employees who will be here before and after bush lite. I'm trying to make the case that Syria engineered quite the power play just prior to the invasion of Iraq. As time goes on it is almost certain that a lucrative line of trucking transpired before the war and a lesser degree of evidence points to those trucks carrying WMD.

Right now the biggest example of why it is important to get to the bottom of this debacle is the fact the Jordanian authorities by chance stopped a truck filled with 20 tons of Vx gas headed straight for the capital. As I showed above these terrorists confessed to being based out of syria and trained in Iraq. It is also known that Iraq had the largest stockpiles of Vx gas in the Middle East.

I don't care who the ISG works for if they discover WMD before it can end up being packed into a truck that say rolls into the capital of Saudi Arabia and kills tens of thousands.

Syria is not only hiding Iraq's weapons.

Worldtribune.com: Syria agrees to hide Iran nukes

Tuesday, December 20, 2005

LONDON - Syria has signed a pledge to store Iranian nuclear weapons and missiles.

The London-based Jane's Defence Weekly reported that Iran and Syria signed a strategic accord meant to protect either country from international pressure regarding their weapons programs. The magazine, citing diplomatic sources, said Syria agreed to store Iranian materials and weapons should Teheran come under United Nations sanctions.

Originally posted by Riwka
Syria is not only hiding Iraq's weapons.

Worldtribune.com: Syria agrees to hide Iran nukes

Now this one Sure made me Laugh!

Thanks Riwka!

Iran does not even HAVE Nukes - and Syria is Already BLAMED to HIDE THEM?



OK, let me get this straight:

Syria does not only has WMD's from Iraq hiding in some "underground tunnel network" - but they also WILL Hide Nukes that Iran "WILL" Make.

Yes by all means - Erase Damascus from the Map!

Marines - get Ready!

It's one thing to combat facts with facts but then again it must be a lot easier to be a clown and just ridicule with a couple of these


The evidence presented concerning Iran is only another example of how Bashar Assad is try to jockey for top dog position in Syria.

Between blowing up Lebanese officials who disagree with his position to the numerous connections to the black market traffic between Iraq/Syria, Bashar Assad is responsible for some big powerplays.

The evidence once again shows there are enough links between the two countries to beg the question, if a country that had previously large stockpiles of WMD and then suddenly none, meanwhile a neighboring country is known to have trafficked illicit goods out of Iraq/has had terrorist hail from Syria trying to pull of a Vx attack is it that hard to maybe tie the two events together. Thats not even using the "tunnel" evidence presented earlier which isn't as strong as some of the less direct evidence used later on.

[edit on 12/21/2005 by Agent47]

[edit on 12/21/2005 by Agent47]

Souljah, how long have some of us debated and/or asserted that Iraq's WMDs, or some of them, may or were moved out and sent to Syria?

You are certainly free to contest such assertions, but bear in mind, with an open-mind, that logic dictates that IF Syria is making such an agreement with Iran, that regardless of Iran currently having nukes or not, the message is clear, further making the claims of some of us concerning Syria and Iraq and Saddam's WMD being moved out to Syria, just a bit more valid. Why? Because if Syria is willing to accept Iran's current or future nukes [WMDs], then logic dictates that Syria would have likewise been more than willing to accept Saddam's/Iraq's WMDs.

Again, you, as with others, can contest such all day long, but to not look at this beyond your own preconceived notions, is foolish, and lends to some affirming that critical thinking is a skill lost out to some.






seekerof

[edit on 21-12-2005 by Seekerof]

Seekerof, you and your "school of thought" got it so wrong in Iraq its laughable. Except the whole thing's beyond tragic.

Iraq moving WMDs to Syria?

Is that what you turkeys are currently pushing?

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Seekerof, you and your "school of thought" got it so wrong in Iraq its laughable. Except the whole thing's beyond tragic.

Iraq moving WMDs to Syria?

Is that what you turkeys are currently pushing?

Is that a troll I spot there? Oh nope its ECK.

I know you've got better skills than a couple pot shots on seeker of.

Well, well, well what do we have here - would it be actual confirmation of Iraqs moving WMD to Syria.

The man who served as the no. 2 official in Saddam Hussein's air force says Iraq moved weapons of mass destruction into Syria before the war by loading the weapons into civilian aircraft in which the passenger seats were removed.

NY Sun

While personally disagreeing with the war, and while I believe the weapons programs in Iraq were far less extensive than we or anyone else believed, I do believe there were weapons programs, and have believed since just before the invasion that the bulk of any fruit they bore are now in Syria. Others are elsewhere. I believe this (though I am by no means able to prove it) because my father is in a position to (on a very, very limited basis, and by no means in any official capacity) know a thing or two about this. It's a fairly straightforward deduction in any event, though. Whether these programs bore fruit that is functional or deliverable however, is another matter entirely.

Saddam Hussein's Iraq hated Syria, and Syria hated Iraq, for they both competed to be the Ba'athist leader of the region, and had territorial disputes.

Syria expelled Saddam's sons precisely because they were Saddam's sonsn

Iraqi WMD's in Syria?

So lets see. Saddam's Iraq is going down, but instead of using their WMD'S against the invasion (Saddam is finished anyway, why not use them) they give them to their regional and hated rival Syria, leaving Iraq completely defenceless against invasion.

What logic.

What then, would be the point of having the WMD's, when in the face of invasion, they hand them to their rival?

Take with a pinch of salt what exiles say. They'll sing 'The hills are alive with singing' in an operatic voice if it gets them money and big houses, and it's what people want to hear.

And if Iraq had given their WMD's to Syria before the invasion, does that not mean that they had disarmed, and thus given in to one of Bush's accusations and demands to disarm it's WMD's? Thus, complying?

Who says Iraq had to give them to Syria? Similarly, who says - if they were given to Syria by anyone - it had to be Iraq doing the giving? Likewise, who says the government of Syria or even anyone we would know by name are the one/s in possession of these materials?

People are assuming Iraq sent the weapons to Syria willingly, prior to or during the early stages of the invasion. That's not only impractical, but is also out of line with what we know of relations between the two.

Originally posted by Agent47
Where are Iraq's WMD you ask?

Well, Paul Wolfowitz himself has said (in Vanity Fair) that there were no WMD. That was the pretext they decided on in order to whip up public support for an invasion.

Ignore that all you want and keep dreaming.

Also, according to the book "State of War: The Secret History of the CIA and the Bush Administration" by James Risen, we actually destroyed Saddam's WMD by accident during the Gulf War. A pilot was coming back from a sortie and had two bombs left to drop. He saw a target ("a complex of buildings in Tarmiya, about 30 kilometers north of Baghdad, that the US apparraprently believed was part of the Iraqi Military Industrialization Commission.") He dropped the bombs and came home. According to the book, US targeteers became "intreagued" by the "unusual activity surrounding the complex." They ordered B-52s to carpet bomb the location and "utterly destroyed the Tarmiya uranium-enrichement facility, known to the Iraqis as the Safa factory." Risen continues, "It effectively ended Iraq's nuclear ambitions." And, "Jafar's (a top scientist) program never recovered."

Now I know that isn't in today's script, but it's what happened. You can either accept the facts or keep arguing about fantasy 'till the cows come home.

In the run-up to the invasion, a CIA case officer began his own little clandestine intel op using 30 family members of Iraqi scientists to glean info. on the state of Saddam's WMD program. After contact with their family members in Iraq, all 30 reported the same exact thing: there was NO WMD program. It had been destroyed during the Gulf War. Those findings, of course, were buried b/c they didn't support the administration's story. Hey- why let a little thing like truth get in the way, when you have big plans? The Downing Street Memo supports what I'm saying (Fixing the facts)

You know the architects of this mess just love the fact that so many people are still so fooled and willing to argue about fantasy. Keeps folks from seeing the truth of it.

So keep pushing that disinfo! They love love the distraction.

And they don't even have to pay you.

Courtesy of NewsMax, of all places...and as reported by the Federalist three years ago...
Oh well, here is their latest tidbit on this:
Iraq Official: Saddam Moved WMD to Syria





seekerof