Now how is this any different from abortion

So... uh... MojoM, you want to not let mentaly incomaptent people have the right to carry a child? You wish to restrict someones right to have the dream of having a child because of mental capacity? And another thing, you want to restrict the amount of children a person can have... you have a long road ahead if wish to voice controls of this nature.

I always think its funny how a supposedly "insane" person can plead insanity. An insane person wouldn't know they're insane because they are too insane to understand they are insane, lol. If you have the mental capacity to plead you're insane, then you're not insane, plain and simple - you're just severely f'd up.

yeah i know, I just had the same topic of conversation with my brother that a killer can plead insanity and get 20 years with probation and a drunk person who hits a child is charged as if they were in their right mind when they drove drunk or did some type of crime. It's another one of those kind of double standards...

Originally posted by samfashow
So... uh... MojoM, you want to not let mentally incompetent people have the right to carry a child? You wish to restrict someones right to have the dream of having a child because of mental capacity?

Hold on a sec!! What's all this 'RESTRICT' stuff about? I NEVER said anything about restricting anyone from anything. I was putting forth 'MY OPINION' of how "I" would see the situation having switched places with this woman, so to speak. Example Below, switching out 'Personal Perspective':

Personally, I think I should have been paying attention to them instead then instead of popping out more puppies like some kind of factory. This isn't the middle ages anymore where people die on average at 25-35 or lack medical science which can usually save them from untimely deaths. Sure babies are cute and stuff, but after you've had a couple that's enough out of you, go get a damn puppy if you want something cute around the house again. Make sure the kids I do have are raised correctly too first!!!

Now, the part about 'Restricting the mentally incompetent', as YOU put it. I am talking about 'MENTALLY ILL'. "ILL", aka:"SICK". Don't even try and tag me with some 'Anti-Mentally Challenged' kind of thing. Or anything along those lines either. Honestly, I would find your assumption toward me as insulting, if you actually knew me personally and said that. I can assure you, I am the last person who is going to restrict or impose upon the life of another.

Another thing, what is up with the whole 'Stop someone from having a dream..."?? You're not only radically twisting what I was saying, but also getting a bit 'Dramatic' with your methods of Mis-Quoting me too. I'm not squashing the 'dreams' or aspirations of people, nor anything else you've come up with. All I can say is try reading my post again, and hopefully the idea of what I'm saying will be shared as intended.

And another thing, you want to restrict the amount of children a person can have... you have a long road ahead if wish to voice controls of this nature.

Again with the 'You want to Restrict' this or that. Not what I was saying at all. "I" think the careless ways Humans decide to Procreate should be avoided when possible. The assessment and method should be 'Individually, Self Regulated'. Meaning, people should exercise some 'Self-Control' in how they are living their lives.

I'm not trying to control how other people 'Breed' or produce offspring. I am only 'suggesting' people do it correctly, in terms of Benefit for their children, and the overall impact on the whole of society. I mean there is no need for people to have the idea that they need to repopulate the world or anything. Attention need not be spread thin between many, when it may be better focused on a few. But hey, if anyone feels they can properly raise and care for 100 kids, fine, but make sure you correctly handle what you create.

Again, I assure you, I'm not playing God in Controlling Nature in any way here. Nor have I ever had any such idea or motive to do so.

Originally posted by mOjOm

And another thing, you want to restrict the amount of children a person can have... you have a long road ahead if wish to voice controls of this nature.

Again with the 'You want to Restrict' this or that. Not what I was saying at all. "I" think the careless ways Humans decide to Procreate should be avoided when possible. The assessment and method should be 'Individually, Self Regulated'. Meaning, people should exercise some 'Self-Control' in how they are living their lives.

I'm not trying to control how other people 'Breed' or produce offspring. I am only 'suggesting' people do it correctly, in terms of Benefit for their children, and the overall impact on the whole of society. I mean there is no need for people to have the idea that they need to repopulate the world or anything. Attention need not be spread thin between many, when it may be better focused on a few. But hey, if anyone feels they can properly raise and care for 100 kids, fine, but make sure you correctly handle what you create.

Again, I assure you, I'm not playing God in Controlling Nature in any way here. Nor have I ever had any such idea or motive to do so.

Well said, we have kids being born into poverty, drug infested neighbourhoods, incompetent families etc. Desined (in the vast majority) to be the underclass of the future.
This is clearly not good for the kids or society, but any birth control legislation i can think of would be morally indefensible.
The only solution that protects liberty and aleviates the problem is personal responsiblity.

Having kids you cant support or offer a decent life to should be looked down upon by society as the irresponsible, ignorant, selfish act that it is. People should be embarassed to walk around on welfare with a bunch of kids, but on the contrary they are quite brazen.
Gotta get rid of welfare as well of course, so there is no financial gain in this.

As for the original question this is different in that the baby
wasnt killed by an act of violence but lack of intervention.
By already having a CS this womans morality becomes very dubious IMO, but by law this i dont feel this is a crime as it can not with any natural moral justification be legislated that an individual must accept a violation in aid of another life.

Abortion IMO, with my admittedly limited study i believe is murder.

So MojoM I am sorry if i misinterpreted you suggestions for your moral beliefs that kids should not be born in places you find unfit and should never be born in abundance. Sorry... we are still cool

Originally posted by samfashow
So MojoM I am sorry if i misinterpreted you suggestions for your moral beliefs that kids should not be born in places you find unfit and should never be born in abundance. Sorry... we are still cool

Yah, we still cool.
Hopefully I didn't come off too harsh with my reply either. Without knowing my normal view on things I can see how you might come to those conclusions. But believe me, I'm not one to tell others what to do. I do have strong opinions about the ways people screw their kids up though. IMO if people can raise thier kids correctly, then have a bus load of em, just don't have em and expect them to grow into decent adults.by luck alone. Most can't even raise one the right way, yet have a handfull of em because they can't be responsible in their sexual habits. That just leads to problems which grow bigger, then have little problems of their own in most cases.

When I talk about 'raising them correctly' I'm not talking about financial responsibility either, which has little to do with it. People seem to forget that they're raising little people who need love, attention and understanding as well as parents that can teach them about being responsible, productive, self reliant and tollerant adults. This takes a lot of work, not a lot of 'material stuff' and if they aren't able to instill those quallities in their kids, they shouldn't have any until they can.

It reminds me of something that was in the local news recently where I live. This couple split up, dad had the youngest kid, I think the son, and mom had the other one who was about 4 or 5. She wanted her son too and was begining to lose her stability about the whole thing. So she ends up ambushing the ex-husband at his house, steals her baby son, gets caught within a matter of hours and is tossed in jail. Now she faces some amount of jail time for attacking him and kidnapping. Even though she just wanted to be with her kid which is a good thing, she became unstable and made things even worse. Now, mom's in the pokey, unable to raise the kid she did have custody of, plus any chance of partially raising her son. Not a good example of a stable parent, or someone who needs to be producing offspring, atleast not while looking at this as an example of how she runs her life.

what would your view be if this took place a long time ago before c sections were around, and the medical care, she would have probably lost both. Would everyone call her a murderer. Probably not, I am Prolife, but that is something that happened by nature because she chose to have the birth natural. She really had no control over that, what if she would have lost it anyways no matter what, if there is a preditermined path then it wouldn't have mattered. Things seem to take place for a reason. Loosing the baby probably made her mental condition worse. If you have never experienced it, it is even hard on the guy.

Originally posted by valnrick
what would your view be if this took place a long time ago before c sections were around, and the medical care, she would have probably lost both. Would everyone call her a murderer. Probably not, I am Prolife, but that is something that happened by nature because she chose to have the birth natural. She really had no control over that, what if she would have lost it anyways no matter what, if there is a preditermined path then it wouldn't have mattered. Things seem to take place for a reason. Loosing the baby probably made her mental condition worse. If you have never experienced it, it is even hard on the guy.

I agree with you. As I said in an earlier post, I think a woman has the right to choose a natural child birth for her and her baby. It is after all, Natural. People and society has become so Un-Natural in all it's endevors that the suggestion to allow nature take it's course now seems crazy. Another example of why it is that the human race seems so out of touch and destructive in the things we do.

If the other reports of this lady being Mentally Ill and using drugs and alcohol during her pregnacy are true, then I personlly think she should have taken steps to not get pregnant in the first place. Plus, she already had two young children to care for anyway. Now they also may end having NOBODY to raise them either. Not too cool IMO!

Originally posted by samfashow
yeah i know, I just had the same topic of conversation with my brother that a killer can plead insanity and get 20 years with probation and a drunk person who hits a child is charged as if they were in their right mind when they drove drunk or did some type of crime. It's another one of those kind of double standards...

have you ever heard a person say i think it's a fine day to go insane?
have you ever heard a person say i think it's a fine day to get drunk?
people choose to get drunk and drive, insanity is not a choice!

posted on 3/16/2004 at 02:21 AM BY MAKESUGOHMMMM

have you ever heard a person say i think it's a fine day to go insane?
have you ever heard a person say i think it's a fine day to get drunk?
people choose to get drunk and drive, insanity is not a choice!

EXACTLY!! Very big difference between the two. It's nice to see someone with a little common sense around here.