If you believe in Capitalism, oil prices not a problem

I'm sorry to be a pill, but lately I've been thinking about all the agonized kvetching over oil and gas prices and I just can't see why people who believe in capitalism should ever be in a panic over prices. Are things, in the here and now, painful? Yes, undeniably.

But those of us who believe in hard work, rugged invidivualism and the Market should realize there is nothing to fear. The Invisible Hand guides everything behind the scenes and in the end it is the consumer who controls his own destiny and the market forces that shape prices. In the past week or so we have seen what can happen when demand drops and when there is talk of opening up more drilling.

Anybody who has opposed drilling for oil for environmental reasons has been shooting themselves in the foot and obstructing market forces. Americans who want to see prices drop should get behind drilling with all their hearts and should also continue to take other steps to reduce our need for foreign oil. Even though national boundaries will hopefully become less and less important in the coming decades, right now we definitely need to stay strong because the world can't really begin to come together until we have broken the stranglehold the Arab civilization has on oil.

The point is, people should not panic over prices because the free market is going to take care of itself and continue to provide for those of us who believe in it.

reply to post by peabody


Well no offense to the OP intended...but I believe in Capitalism in the same way that I believe in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. All just childish fantasies that fuel greed.

Free Markets are an illusion.

money.cnn.com...

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) The government charged an oil trading firm Thursday with manipulating oil prices in the first complaint to be announced since the regulators began a new investigation into wrongdoings in the energy markets.

The Commodity Futures Trading Commission accused Optiver Holding, two of its subsidiaries and three employees with manipulation and attempted manipulation of crude oil, heating oil and gasoline futures on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

"Optiver traders amassed large trading positions, then conducted trades in such a way to bully and hammer the markets," CFTC Acting Chairman Walt Lukken said at a press conference. "These charges go to the heart of the CFTC's core mission of detecting and rooting out illegal manipulation of the markets."

[edit on 25/7/2008 by kosmicjack]

reply to post by kosmicjack



kosmicjack:

The only thing your articles proves is that free enterprise with checks and balances DOES work.

Put another way, the only alternative is a centralized government controlled economy - namely communism - and we KNOW that doesn't work.

Originally posted by kosmicjack
reply to post by peabody

 

Well no offense to the OP intended...but I believe in Capitalism in the same way that I believe in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. All just childish fantasies that fuel greed.

Free Markets are an illusion.

money.cnn.com...

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) The government charged an oil trading firm Thursday with manipulating oil prices in the first complaint to be announced since the regulators began a new investigation into wrongdoings in the energy markets.

The Commodity Futures Trading Commission accused Optiver Holding, two of its subsidiaries and three employees with manipulation and attempted manipulation of crude oil, heating oil and gasoline futures on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

"Optiver traders amassed large trading positions, then conducted trades in such a way to bully and hammer the markets," CFTC Acting Chairman Walt Lukken said at a press conference. "These charges go to the heart of the CFTC's core mission of detecting and rooting out illegal manipulation of the markets."

[edit on 25/7/2008 by kosmicjack]

No offense taken. In one way, your view is totally incoherent to me. I don't understand how *anyone* can deny the advances made by capitalism and the free market or deny the reality of the free market system. But that's another discussion for another time, and intelligent people can and do take your position all the time.

On the other hand, the only people I can see being worried over oil prices in the long run are people who feel, as you do, that the whole thing is somehow a rigged game or an illusion. If you start from that premise, then yes, recent trends are very worrisome.

But if a person acknowledges the Free Market and celebrates American Capitalism, then there is really nothing to be concerned about as the market invariably corrects itself.

I must say that this has been the most polite disagreement I have had on ATS in a long while. Thanks for the civility and thanks for not calling me a communist or a socialist - which I am not - I just think unfettered Capitalism tends to breed exploitation of people and resources.

Kudos on the civility guys. Personally, I think that a false assumption is that the free market is possible. I feel that because of the psychology of humanity, the free market cannot exist. Rather than jobs, contracts, etc. going to companies/individuals with the most experience, ability, qualifications, etc. social networks dictate the flow of opportunity. For instance, I feel that in a truely free market there would be no inheritence of wealth. Allowing wealth to be passed on to children undermines the free market, for there is no guarantee that the children of successful business owners are the most apt to continue the legacy. Rather, we see more and more Paris Hiltons and the like, who are raised in a decadent world, and do not give back to the market. We then find centralization of wealth and power, which leads to the current situation, where in small companies are bought out by large companies, and then due to lack of standards for globalized goods, quality decreases.

Greed is another factor that will not allow the free market to reign. Greed strips the invisible hand of power, and causes the economy to tilt toward the ever decreasing number of individuals who hold most of the wealth of the world. For instance, Dubai is a complete waste of money. It only benefits a small proportion of the planet, which could be used to increase gains in third world countries, rather than serving as a sign of the greed and decadence of the ridiculously wealthy.

My beliefs are based off the fact that I find humanity is incapable of doing the "right" thing, unless they are forced to. Humanity, as a whole, rarely does what would maximize productivity on a large scale, and instead focuses on the individual and the few social contacts they possess. The few who are able to "pull themselves up by their boot straps" are statistically insignificant, when compared to the millions across the world who suffer due to our atrocious business practices.

This of course, as you stated, is based off the fact that I feel business leaders are only interested in personal gain, and not quality, business, increased poductivity on a whole, etc. Rather, I feel that they are mostly selfish, and only care about money. They will do anything for a buck. Their behavior, in my opinion, dehumanizes the world, and allows for the horrendous work environments we find throughout the planet. Just my opinion of course. I'd like the free market to exist, I just don't think it can in society at present.

reply to post by dragonfire2159

I know this discussion has been civil in it's transgression however I would like to point out a few things you will most likely diagree with but keep in mind the harshness if any is for lack of better words to mature a point!

America was never intended to be a completely free market!! It was intended to provide more access to this market by it's citizens, this is the undeniable reason and still indifference between the republican party and Dems no doubt. Pure capitalism eventually, and sometimes very quickly, in our case, ends up in a rich, greedy, anarchy for the predispositioned few, and a slave stae for those predispositioned to poverty, there is no debate on these issues they have clearly been displayed throughout history, with the industrial revolution, the real revolution was within the working class, providing unions as a saviour against permanent opression by the Republican party. These moves in many ways were instilled through the Democratic party. The Republicans hate these unions which proves what they think about you.


This post can be elaborated upon and might be without prompt, however it's late I have to stop before I get mad!~!

The republicans have ruined this country since day one, pushing their anti-social policy, but blowing money all over hte world to secure their domination. Weird circumstances only pure capitalism can inspire. If we have htis money to spend it should be redistributed through social means then taxes cut at the poor level first then on to the rich!!!


[edit on 26-7-2008 by azblack]

Originally posted by dragonfire2159
For instance, I feel that in a truely free market there would be no inheritence of wealth. Allowing wealth to be passed on to children undermines the free market, for there is no guarantee that the children of successful business owners are the most apt to continue the legacy. Rather, we see more and more Paris Hiltons and the like, who are raised in a decadent world, and do not give back to the market. We then find centralization of wealth and power, which leads to the current situation, where in small companies are bought out by large companies, and then due to lack of standards for globalized goods, quality decreases.

These are the systems republicans fight and a better statement couldn't be made to asses the condition of our country. It's not only the inhertance of wealth but also power, These people wish to inherit and pass on power as was done in the middle ages by England when we came here!!!!!!!!!!

Uh...

The US is going to save the world (again) by drilling for an exhaustible resource, oil, and everything will be fine?

That's not market forces. No one has been standing in the way of drilling for oil except for the market itself. The only reason Bush and Oil Co™ are flirting with drilling for oil offshore is because it is now more profitable than it was when the oil price was low.

So in effect, it's the market that has been standing in the way of new drilling, not the environmentalists.

[edit on 26-7-2008 by mattguy404]

reply to post by peabody


Asking me to believe in something that can change overnight is like asking me to believe in an ever-shifting warp that represents the true universal reality in which we exist, so at least i can see where you're coming from with this.

However, one thing perked my interest - you said "American Capitalism", i was just wondering if you meant that Capitalism finds it's home in America (not in the fields of industry like in the sweat-shops of the world) or if you meant something completely different?

I ask, because i find often that people have a tendancy to overlook the negatives in order to contemplate the true greatness of their vision, which in this case is great i'll agree.

I would not like to find that the thing i believe in carries the taint of corruption and the smell of blood, after all.

Originally posted by mattguy404
Uh...

The US is going to save the world (again) by drilling for an exhaustible resource, oil, and everything will be fine?

That's not market forces. No one has been standing in the way of drilling for oil except for the market itself. The only reason Bush and Oil Co™ are flirting with drilling for oil offshore is because it is now more profitable than it was when the oil price was low.

So in effect, it's the market that has been standing in the way of new drilling, not the environmentalists.

[edit on 26-7-2008 by mattguy404]

Mattguy for the win


This reminds me of people who wear pyramid hats and worship a god called "Free Marketoro" You are being scammed, people I'd rather live like in Denmark then I would the Kremlin.

I dont know why so many people are so upset with the price of Oil...


yes its high, but the demand is also very high for this...


Now, i know most(99%) people on here have a highschool education, and with that, they should have had to take a Econmomics class, that outlines the BASIC principals of Supply and Demand.

Im not sure if people just never learned anything, or just happen to skip that day of class, but the general principals of supply and demand works like so:

With an increase in demand, and a Static Supply, Price goes up
With an increase in supply, and a static Demand, Price goes down


Right now, global Demand is GOING WAY UP, and the Globals supply isnt growing to match that demand... Thats why the price is being raised...

As long as people are willing to pay, then that price is what it should be...