Free Will and Fate....

I for one am a strong beleiver in free will, but it has come recently to mind that maybe we dont have free will at all. What goes to show this??? Well for one sec jsut think about the whole concept of right and wrong. I mean if our decisions are based on the idealogy of right or wrong then isn;t God jsut really lying out a path of "good" and we are simply choosing the right path. this I guess goes out to religiuos ppl who beleive in following the bible and so on. So in a way this situation is free will in the fact we choose the path, but predetermined in a way that God just sets out a path that he knows we will choose, so therefore he can control wat we decide.....i dunno if this makes sense to someone else other than me!!....

Absolutely everything about you, I, and everybody else is an accumulation of other things that we have reconstructed as ourselves. You do not choose to enter this world, and you are built with an incredible desire not to take yourself out of it (except in extreme circumstances). Genetics determine your sex and general physical makeup as well as any potential diseases. Time and place of birth and social class determine most of how you actually think and your quality and length of life. Parental/Guardian discipline and culture determine the final factors of how you think and act. After several years, an individual based upon all this information emerges.

Fate even brought you to this message board to discuss this subject as the course of your life directed you to think this way.

Since there are so many constraints in how somebody can live based upon their location, sex, age, race, upbringing, and social class, what you actually have as choices are small indeed. You can sort-of decide what you want to eat, who you want to have sex with, and other things. However, underlying all that is your physical make up which was created and determined for you. There is no real choice, just tiny yes and no answers that you pick and choose through based upon what you were made to be and the circumstances surrounding you.

Then you die.

[Edited on 11-3-2004 by heelstone]

Ticky question! Freewill exists: Yes/No. Fate exists: yes/ no? Let me refer to something I did awhile ago....

Good Catch!

Throw the paper through your head
an object by which logic designs fate
The future exists
not because it is set
but because it is being set
this is the true nature of destiny
I think that the real thing here
is seeing how scared people really are of themselves
and how frightening this must all seem
sitting on the outside and always looking outward
A learned helplessness at the hands of time
in which one believes that there can be no control
The wind breathes in a condition of circumstance
and every action constructs the forward
We are here because we have built ourselves to be
we have found each other because it is
what the consequences of our behavior has led us to
and we are in love with one another
because we have always been
You and I are us
because it is time

Aaaaarrrrghhhh!!!

Not this topic again. This is the second time this week and the umpteenth in years.

Without freewill you couldn't choose to worship God.

"Without free will you couldn't choose to worship God. " But isn't it by fate that you do? If everything is predetermined (i.e. fate), then wouldn't God create you, knowing that you wouldn't believe in him? Thus God himself has led you to damnation. Is free will really free will? No one knows, pondering this rhetorical question for a mass amount of time, would make one go mad. I for one believe that free will does exist, as well as fate. Each decision we make, whether big or small, leads us to our fate/destiny, but who said that fate/destiny had to be singular? Could it be that every decision we make in our lives, creates a new fate/destiny, or even perhaps lead us back to an old one.I believe that people should stop worrying whether everything is predetermined, because if people constantly believe that fate will intervene or just become, then they themselves refuse to try. So in other words, you can't strive through life, by sitting. Don't wait for fate/destiny to happen.

Free will in worshipping a diety? If childhood indoctrination into religion is free will then I do not currently understand the definition of free will. When you are born and raised, more than likely you will be given a spiritual upbringing on this planet. Only later do some people choose not to worship. Even then, their decision falls upon what fate has brought them in life.

[Edited on 11-3-2004 by heelstone]

Originally posted by Leveller
Aaaaarrrrghhhh!!!

Not this topic again. This is the second time this week and the umpteenth in years.

Without freewill you couldn't choose to worship God.

this is a pretty funny conclusion....seeing how it was "satan" that gave us free will to begin with...

worship/free will?

no, it doesnt fit at all.

*

i used to be very anti fate, i did not like the idea of some diety using me as a puppet to act out some stupid play for them, i wasn't going to be a ragdoll for anyone anymore. this was also around the time i became agnostic.

then i made a startling revelation.
and epiphany, if you will.
i always got into debates about the existence of fate until i realized

that you can debate whether or not things happen for a reason for your whole life, but in the end, none of that will matter. because in the end, the reason something happened isnt going to change anything, its the fact that the event occured that will change the course of your life.

ever since, i dont care really. i still dont believe in FATE, becauseit completely contradicts free will, options, decision, and every "unalienable right" we have.

but do some things happen for a reason? i dont know. it doesnt matter to me.

they might, but they dont have to.

Ah...back to this.

Let me ask you - A man has a wife, a job, and friends. He has free will, correct? But are his choices really free?

He can go home to the wife, go drinking with his friends, and run off to paris if he wanted to, right?

But are they all really valid choices?

If the wife complains, he won't go out drinking with his friends, instead come home every evening. He can stay at work late, but then his wife will be angry. He can run off to paris and forget about the wife, the friends and work, but will he ever choose that option? No. Instead, he is trapped into going home to the wife every night.

DE

You know some people actually search for God and he converts them.


If free will in worshipping a diety does not exist, then why do people do it? I do it because I love God and his comands of perfection. And I did not grow up believing this.



If your free will is false than what you choose is false and you are a robot so why even type this message to begin with?




And how can you say God creats someone he knows is damned from the start? Did God force the man and women to sleep with each other? did God force people to have children whenever they decided?



I beliieve what I believe because of mirales, but I could fall at any moment into falsehood, aswell you people could turn to belief at any moment, so all of our descisions are from the heart. im not garunteed anything, and you are not garunteed anything until we all reach the judgement seat.



So yea it does exist completely, and ive seen people convert from all social backrounds, all types of culture to a belief so that does not decide what you believe. Because they searched.



If fate makes you type in mesages, then why not decide to not type and throw your computer out the window?






who knows.


peace.

Genesis 4:8-12

Now Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field." And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"

"I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"

The LORD said, "What have you done?

Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth."

God asks Cain �Where is your brother�, �What have you done?�. Proof that he gave us freewill over the choices we make in life. If God knew that Cain would kill Able when he created him he wouldn�t have asked what he did, he would have already known.

We also have the choice to be �born again� by baptism. Again it�s our freewill that gives us the choice. Baptism is a choice and by definition freewill.

Even Satan had free will. The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing." These angels irrevocably chose through their free will to rebel against God and not to serve Him.


[Edited on 11-3-2004 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by heelstone
Free will in worshipping a diety? If childhood indoctrination into religion is free will then I do not currently understand the definition of free will. When you are born and raised, more than likely you will be given a spiritual upbringing on this planet. Only later do some people choose not to worship. Even then, their decision falls upon what fate has brought them in life.

Not really. It is a matter of evolution. Man naturally looks to gods for occurences that he cannot explain. Religion isn't a Western phenomana nor is it particularly new. But the fact is that now you are conditioned to accept relatively new religions. If a man is left to his own devices though, he will naturally look to a God. After contemplation he may choose to reject this notion or he may keep it. It's a choice. That's not a spiritual argument but a psychological fact.

I agree that Church doctrine does not necessarily give room to freewill. You are only allowed to believe if you believe exactly what they tell you to. This negates freewill.
But there are those of us out here who have made up our minds about what God is all about and freewill is an integral part of that belief.
For example, I believe I worship God through freewill. I will not be dictated to by a church nor will I expect to be rewarded with salvation for my belief. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. But it was MY choice.

As for freewill being given by Satan as suggested by somebody else - I disagree. Freewill was an integral part of our makeup when we were created. If you follow the Christian faith, you will see that God made man in his own image. I don't believe he would have left something as important out as the matter of choice. You could argue that the Tree of Knowledge contained the fruit of freewill but I prefer to take it as a symbolic story as to how man was let down by his own choices.

Finally, why does freewill not fit in with the concept of fate and God's all knowingness? Maybe our paths are mapped. But maybe those paths are eternal in number. Sure, God would know the eternal but it doesn't make the outcome of anything any less sure. The eternal knowing the eternal would create a circle rather than a predetermined point from a to b, in my view.

[Edited on 11-3-2004 by Leveller]

Leveller had some good things to say.
Free will exists because humans were created in the image of God. How can a creation be an image of it's creator if it must rely on a predetermined fate to function. God acts on His own will and it only makes sense that His creation would do the same. Besides, how can a man be virtuous or righteous, something God requires of His creation, if this man has no choice anyway. A man is not virtuous if he has no choice but to perform good works. The way I see it is, God knows what a person is going to do--every decision that they will make--because He exists outside of linear time. It's like God's seen everything happen already, all the way to the end, so He knows what we will do, but we had the freedom of choice to do what we wanted when we did it.

In regard to the introduction of free will, it is not of Satan's design. God created man in full knowledge that he would have the capacity to obey or disobey His commandments. This is why God created law in the Garden of Eden forbidding the consumption of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Why would God create a law if He did not know that man might disobey Him? Satan merely used man's free will to persuade Eve to partake in the forbidden fruit. With the consumption of this fruit, man became knowledgable about that which is right and wrong and was therefore capable of conscious, willful sin. Free will was there from the beginning though.

In regard to the idea of humans naturally turning to God for things that they cannot explain, this is true. However, I don't see how this is a case for evolution. Humans look to something supernatural when they can't figure out the world through scientific observation. Here's news: science can't solve everything! Science cannot comprehend eternity or infinity, non-existence (what happens after death), origin of matter, or human reasoning (what separates humans from animals) among many other things. So why discount anything outside of science when science is so limited? Sorry, this post went on a tangent.

Originally posted by GregoryON520

Here's news: science can't solve everything! Science cannot comprehend eternity or infinity, non-existence (what happens after death), origin of matter, or human reasoning (what separates humans from animals) among many other things. So why discount anything outside of science when science is so limited?

But neither can religion.

That's the whole point...it CANT be proved. If it could be proved, Plato and all the rest of us philosophy nerds would be out of the job.

And proof is not something written in the bible. That's a BOOK of OPINIONS....not a scientific document. People who say the bible is fact and it proves everything are completely contradicting themselves by saying that the bible is a book of science (fact).

but sorry, that's my rant on the bible, my bad.

but the fight over whether we are run by fate or free will is a frivolous one. in the end, wherever or whenever that may be, its not going to give a dern how much you believed in free will or fate, the truth is going to unveil itself to you. personally, i believe both exist. it varies from person to person. some people are controlled by fate, others have broken free and live holding free will's hand. most live by both doctrines, with certain parts of their lives run by each.

taking a line from judy garlands "get happy"-
forget your troubles come on get happy
you better chase all your cares away
shout hallelujah, come on get happy
get ready for the judgement day

there you go! screw it, we're gonna party! here and wherever else we might end up! see? show tunes know how to do life right

Ill try.....
Free Will Exists, because GOD does not control what goes on. When people ask why did Joe get that raise, or even worse why did GOD take my loved one. I think these things are fate, and in most cases free will lead to them.

Just because there are rules doesn't mean you can choose not to. Is that a little biased.. maybe But Evil has its biased to. Usually an easy way outta of something tough is to do the wrong thing. So I think they are evenly biased.

I am not sure why we think we are so special that GOD sits and watches over us. Not say he/she/it cant or send in someone for real troubles, Like a Plumber.

Galaxies are destroyed everyday, and humans are on such a small level compared to everything in the universe, how vain is it that we think we are the special ones.

I DO think there is a GOD (She/he - Most likely it). And there is proof to this, just how science works, shows you that there is a Grand Plan, Mathematics and such control everything. This is a pretty bad ass program he wrote ( and no not really like the matrix) but creation of the Universe and how everything interacts in pr�cis Chaos, shows someone is behind the scenes.

But to think we are Soooo special is what keeps you asleep at night. But some could come and kill you in your sleep, and it would not have anything to do with GOD, it would be that in your free will you didn't choose to get a security alarm.

I guess its all just fate, which is a collective of everyone's freewill decisions.

Something has occured to me in out life and i think fate does exist . Think about it who you are what you think they have all been made by things that you dident do your genes arnet in your choice to have the people you learn things from (whatever you learn from them) you have no control off how you react to situations that present themselves to youas you only react to them by things you have learnt of others so that sets what you learn from that situation.