Do U.S. workers make too much money?

reply to post by Bout Time

After having seen millions of jobs lost and trillions of retirement savings erased because of the financial crisis, Americans were outraged to learn that Wall Street firms paid out more than $18.4 billion in cash bonuses in 2008, the sixth largest bonus pool on record.[1] Even more shocking, many of these Wall Street firms had just received billions in taxpayer money to help prevent their collapse.

For years, CEOs have justified their high compensation as being “pay for performance.” But for Wall Street, the promise of high annual payouts without the need to worry about long-term consequences created incentives to pursue such unsustainable business practices as using short-term borrowing to invest in mortgage-backed securities. Wall Street pay packages encouraged executives to take risks their firms could not support. Now American taxpayers are on the hook for these bad decisions after Wall Street executives reaped inflated pay during the bubble years.

For example, in 2007—the year the financial crisis began to unfold—the top 10 recipients of the federal government’s Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) collectively paid their CEOs a combined $242 million in total annual compensation. That averages nearly $25 million per CEO to run companies that might have gone bankrupt if not for billions of dollars in taxpayer assistance.

CEO Pay at the Top 10 TARP Bailout Recipients
Company TARP Funding [2] CEO Name 2007 Total Pay [3]
Citigroup $50 Billion Charles O. Prince $25,520,621
Bank of America $45 Billion Kenneth D. Lewis $23,646,455
American International Group $40 Billion Martin J. Sullivan $13,960,382
JPMorgan Chase $25 Billion James Dimon $28,887,532
Wells Fargo $25 Billion John Stumpf $14,797,458
General Motors $14.3 Billion G. Richard Wagoner $19,761,874
Goldman Sachs $10 Billion Lloyd C. Blankfein $53,966,198
Morgan Stanley $10 Billion John J. Mack $41,790,854
PNC Financial Services Group $7.6 Billion James E. Rohr $18,623,679
U.S. Bancorp $6.7 Billion Richard K. Davis $ 6,473,874

The $700 billion TARP bailout plan was created by the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008. As a condition of receiving aid, TARP participants are not allowed to offer pay incentives that encourage “unnecessary and excessive risks” by senior executives, may not pay golden parachutes and must adopt claw-back provisions for any executive pay based on inaccurate financial statements.[7]

However, these executive compensation limits did little to protect taxpayers from subsidizing excessive bonuses. For example, Merrill Lynch accelerated its 2008 bonus payments just before it merged into Bank of America, which then received $20 billion in TARP aid to help complete the merger.[8] American International Group (AIG)—now nearly 80 percent owned by U.S. taxpayers—granted millions in incentive bonuses to its financial services unit that was largely responsible for the company’s collapse.

www.aflcio.org...

Read my location. We are a country that has not been run by the people and for the people for a very long time. We are a corporate dictatorship. run by the major corporations for profit at the expense of the people.

and in many of my post, people come back with "I don't care". that attitude is exactly why we are in this mess.

I'm still ticked off about the banks being bailed out. Every single one of those CEO's should have been brought up on charges, thrown in jail and their money and assets taken away.

I feel like Alice in Wonderland, this is just a mad world and getting nuttier by the year.

reply to post by McGotti
I've observed and come to the exact same conclusion.

Managers for the most part are individuals that are willing to mess over another so they can climb in power and money.

There are two kinds of people, "service to self" and "service to others".

"United We Stand, Divided We Fall" and falling we are because so many individuals now are in "survival" mode. "It's me or them".

The replacement of American workers with Indian visa thieves is immoral and un-American. Big business needs to learn to put country before profit.

Nothing riles me up more then the outsourcing of American jobs or the replacement of American workers with foreigners who do nothing but snub the US at every opportunity.

reply to post by LovingSoul
Don't get me going on health care.

49 million people in this country are now without it.

Everyone deserves good medical care. Everyone.

Go to my profile and check out how good a health care and retirement package our politicians have.

Nobody looked at it and the few that commented, said "I don't care".

You should try out and become a Senator or Congress Person. They and their families have excellent coverage and retirement packages.



[edit on 31-8-2009 by ofhumandescent]

Our Senators and Congresswomen DO NOT pay into Social Security and, of course, they do not collect from it.

You see, Social Security benefits were not suitable for persons of their rare elevation in society. They felt they should have a special plan for themselves. So, many years ago they voted in their own benefit plan. In more recent years, no congressperson has felt the need to change it. After all, it is a great plan (This year they voted themselves a payraise of $5400.00)

For all practical purposes their plan works like this:

When they retire, they continue to draw the same pay until they die. Except it may increase from time to time for cost of living adjustments..

For example, Senator Byrd and Congressman White and their wives may expect to draw $7,800,000.00 (that's Seven Million, Eight-Hundred Thousand Dollars), with their wives drawing $275, 000.00 during the last years of their lives.

This is calculated on an average life span for each of those two Dignitaries. Younger Dignitaries who retire at an early age, will receive much more during the rest of their lives.

Their cost for this excellent plan is $0.00. NADA..! ZILCH...

This little perk they voted for themselves is free to them. You and I pick up the tab for this plan. The funds for this fine retirement plan come directly from the General Funds;

"OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK "!

From our own Social Security Plan, which you and I pay (or have paid) into, every payday until we retire (which amount is matched by our employer). We can expect to get an average of $1,000 per month after retirement.

Or, in other words, we would have to collect our average of $1,000 monthly benefits for another 68 years and one (1) month to equal Senator Bill Bradley's benefits

Social Security could be very good if only one small change were made. That change would be to:

Jerk the Golden Fleece Retirement Plan from under the Senators and Congressmen. Put them into the Social Security plan with the rest of us

Then sit back.....And see how fast they would fix it. stories-that-need-to-be-told.blogspot.com...

Must be nice? Most of us "common folk" will have to work until we drop.

Do you think this is fair? I don't. What's more I'm mad as hell, these Senators and Congressional "Leaders" get really good free medical care.

Did you get a $5,400. pay raise this year? I didn't yet my work load increased.

and my job is being outsourced to India.

reply to post by Bout Time
The trickle down theory does not work, unless you are talking about urinating and that is exactly what the elite handful of rich bastards are doing to the rest of us.

reply to post by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
two words to research: Wealth Distribution.

When you were a kid and sat down at the table for pie and you had six other people sitting there wanting pie, your mom probably told you to cut six equal pieces so everyone could have some.

Well some of the kids sitting at the table cutting the pie are cutting themselves 3/4 of the pie and leaving the 1/4 of the pie for the rest of us.

reply to post by worldwatcher


In Illinois Federal minimum wage is 8.25 and in other states it is now 7.25

www.laborlawcenter.com...
State Minimum Wage

2008 Jan 1, 2009 July 2009
2008 Jan 1, 2009 July 2009
Alabama $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Montana $6.55 $6.90 $7.25
Alaska $7.15 $7.15 $7.25
Nebraska $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Arizona $6.90 $7.25 $7.25
Nevada** $6.85 $6.85 $7.55
Arkansas $6.25 $6.25 $7.25
New Hampshire $7.25 $7.25 $7.25
California $8.00 $8.00 $8.00
New Jersey $7.15 $7.15 $7.25
Colorado $7.02 $7.28 $7.28
New Mexico $6.50 $7.50 $7.50
Connecticut $7.65 $8.00 $8.00
New York $7.15 $7.15 $7.25
Delaware $7.15 $7.15 $7.25
North Carolina $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
District of Columbia $7.55 $7.55 $8.25
North Dakota $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Florida $6.79 $7.21 $7.25
Ohio $7.00 $7.30 $7.30
Georgia $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Oklahoma $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Hawaii $7.25 $7.25 $7.25
Oregon $7.95 $8.40 $8.40
Idaho $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Pennsylvania*** $7.15 $7.15 $7.25
Illinois $7.75 $7.75 $8.00
Puerto Rico $6.55 $6.55 $6.55
Indiana $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Rhode Island $7.40 $7.40 $7.40
Iowa $7.25 $7.25 $7.25
South Carolina $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Kansas**** $6.55 $2.65 $2.65
South Dakota $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Kentucky $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Tennessee $5.58 $5.58 $7.25
Louisiana $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Texas $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Maine $7.25 $7.25 $7.25
Utah $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Maryland $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Vermont $7.68 $8.06 $8.06
Massachusetts $8.00 $8.00 $8.00
Virginia $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Michigan $7.40 $7.40 $7.40
Washington $8.07 $8.55 $8.55
Minnesota* $6.15 $6.15 $6.15
West Virginia $7.25 $7.25 $7.25
Mississippi $6.55 $6.55 $7.25
Wisconsin $6.50 $6.50 $7.25
Missouri $6.65 $7.05 $7.25
Wyoming $6.55 $6.55 $7.25

www.laborlawcenter.com...

and 8.00 an hour is not enough to live on.

I make (but not for long) 48,000 a year and am barely surviving.

[edit on 31-8-2009 by ofhumandescent]

Hi,

I honestly dont know if USA workers make too much money.. I dont trade with dollars, never lived on the USA..

BUT, how can a system that wants to constantly improve wages and prices can be sustainable, IF at the same time it is based on competitivity, and with it the search for lower prices? In my opinion, it is destined to FAIL, be on USA, be it on somewhere else...

The only solution to that equation is INNOVATION, is making different products that overcome the "lower price" factor.. But innovation is not a regular variable.. you cannot prove mathematically (the basis of economy) that it will occur ANY GIVEN TIME.. And the innovative product will also with time turn a trivial thing, giving in to the "lower price" factor also..

This is where the minimum government movement FAILS.. As random as INNOVATION is, you cannot solely rely on individual BIG COMPANIES to innovate, because they will acomodate to the status quo.. The biggest source of innovation is on Small and Medium Enterprises, that want to trive.. But this SMEs normally dont have the resources to do it.. This is where public funded universities and research center kick in.. People look at history, and WHY is USA the biggest innovator on the world.. Look at WHO started the innovation dynamic.. Universities and Research Centers funded by TAX PAYER MONEY.. It is a cycle, where the PEOPLE, the COMMUNITY contribute to common development.. You CANNOT solely on market dynamics.. they are destined to FAIL because the point i made at beginning of post..

reply to post by ChrisF231


Its free market at work.. Free will, etc.. Its on that that your country is based IN..

Americans work more then any other industrialized nation. 400 hours on average per year.

they also take the least vacation. Average 10-12 days off a year. The next lowest is France with 25.

And we pay for it. With our health, with time away from our families.

And we have to pay for our own education. Most countries don't.

Our cost of living is much higher.

We have to pay for our own healthcare.

The way I see it, we dont' paid enough.

Jobs are getting outsource because companies just want to rake in more and more profit. It doesn't matter what the labor is capable of. If they can make money, they will.

It stopped being about the American worker a long time ago, and just about the almighty dollar bill.

Lets not forget that it is also the other way around. Americans insist on cheap lead laden goods instead of quality made materials. So they can't make the products any cheaper without outsourcing.

If American's stopped insisting on getting a microwave and a toaster for 20 bucks, it would start working to our benefit.

I watched a show once about a couple pitching their business to wal-mart. Instantly wal-mart drove down their price. And then again. They started struggling with getting their manufacturer to drive down their price. Then wal-mart insisted they bring it down again. They then had no choice but to use cheap overseas labor.



[edit on 31-8-2009 by nixie_nox]

Originally posted by nixie_nox
And we have to pay for our own education. Most countries don't.

Our cost of living is much higher.

We have to pay for our own healthcare.

OH NOEZ! Dont say that! Its sacriledge! The best way to select the best minds on the world is through the money they pay!
And public healthcare will ruin our lives, paying for the no-lifers!

/sarcasm off

Great post! Great reality check!

Originally posted by Ra
I work for one of those outsourcing money-grubbing corporations, and we were told its all about the bottom line. We can increase profits and pay bigger dividends to our investors!! GREED!!! Thats the real culprit here.
I'm still employed only because our group is needed to process the moving of our American jobs to the Asian-Pacific islands of Malaysia & Singapore and good old red China!!! I'm currently training my Malaysian replacement so my days are also numbered.

I've watched as 9000+ of my fellow American employees have been laid-off over the last 2 years while our Asian plants have swelled, hiring twice or three times as many workers to replace we US workers, and take our jobs and business from highly trained & educated Americans.

Who was not affected in my company by these massive lay-offs? Our European brethren who have strong private and national unions that protect thier jobs & workers from greedy money grubbing corporate scum!!! Our American unions were nuetered in the 1980's by Reagan and his corporate cronies and now dubya shrub and his merry band of corporate scrotebags are finishing the job started by uncle ronnie and daddy!!!

So now we see some legislation in the Senate and the House to take away tax incentives from corporations that gut our American economy to save their investors a few pennies on their shares!!! It may be to little too late but it is a start!!

Thats the truly saddest point to all of this crapola, the feedback after the first 2years of non-US operations for our company? We saved a few dollars on labor costs but shipping, tariffs, import/export costs and "country of origin" issues are costing us thousands of $$$$$$'s more per unit shipped!!!!

Thats right, because we're allowing what are considered Muslim countries to build our products we must send this work from the "Questionable country of origin" built units to a sub-contactor in another country that is considered to have "favored nation status" to allow shipments to countries like Israel or to even sell to our own govt!!!! Can you imagine being a US military personnel and your using a piece of equipment that may have been made by the hands of the same
people who are shooting at you in the war zones of Iraq or Afghanastan? It boggles the mind!!!

As Americans we can alter this very dark time by working to start unionizing your place of employment right away, its the only way to save our jobs and our way of life!!! I've started doing so in my company and strangely enough most of our local management team is all for it, wanting to save our American jobs as well. Our corporate managers on the other hand are hopping mad and want the organizers fired but they can't!!!

At least our laws afford the American workers some protection, at least until we know the outcome of the November elections!!!

Take back America from corporate greed!!!
ABBA
Anybody But Bush Again!!!!!

[Edited on 11-3-2004 by Ra]

Although you are in a bit of a pickle Unionized Labor is not the answer. Profit sharing plans with reasonable wages for labor is a good start though. Unions will simply either price your labor out of the market and outsourcing becomes viable for the business. The company you work for, do they owe you something? You have been there working and getting paid up until now? If they are outsourcing you should be on the move, adapt and change.

Yes, we make too much money and think its not enough.
I once went to friends house and she told me she lives like bum, though she has car, all necessary furniture, computer, fridge, good TV, gas, electricity, internet. That is a damn good normal living standard for a polish, russian, mexican, bolgarian, brazilian, japanesse, egyptian. Pretty much 95% of population in 2000 don't have a car, not sure about now but may be 90% of population live worse then a poor american.

[edit on 31-8-2009 by wrill]

reply to post by worldwatcher
You are like Palin, a brain washed whore.

Can't cuss on here so just plain NO.

What is wrong with you? Do you work for a living or are you a Boss Man or Trust Fund Kid or what?

When the workers are on the 60% side of the 60/40 split, then they will have enough.

Don't like UPS? Hire a bike messenger sometime to bring you your expensive toybox.

UPS man get paycheck. UPS man buy pickup truck. Pickup Truck worker has job. Tightwad pay policies strangle consumption and employment.

One day, in years to come, those with responsibility, wealth and power will rule over those that have none and make them boilogical implements for furthering their own divorce from the natural beauty of the human race.

Bon voyage.....suckers!

Money can't buy the good things in life.

reply to post by darklanser


No joke.

My dearest friend is a highschool teacher and she barely makes enough to support herself.

Yet, we pay Madonna and Beyonce hundreds of millions of dollars to jiggel around - ludicris.

Absolute madness, our priorities.

You get what you pay for America.

Our values are so warped it's not funny. It's sad.

reply to post by titian
I make 46,000 - 52,000 with OT and I do State Compliance Filings for large corporations.

You are not being paid your worth.

But, neither am I.

Some sit at a desk with their feet up (CEO's) and make millions.

It is us, the real workers that make poop. The harder the worker, the lower the pay.

Happy Labor day America

Notice in the picture the executive (CEO) standing upon the back of the real worker.

The useless eaters are the CEO's, the bankers, the lazy elite that manipulate and control the workers.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2e449353c164.jpg[/atsimg]



[edit on 7-9-2009 by ofhumandescent]